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Funny you should mention that, tonight's Shadowrun session for me involves the party astrally projecting together to save the Adept from a shadow beast after she got exposed to a ton of Tempo during the previous raid at the drug lab. (Cartel goons panic shooting the lab they're guarding and us forgetting gasmasks is a fine combination.) The other two are tagging along as support. The snakelady got turned into a snake while my character is in the guise of a raven. The oni adept is obviously a ronin/samurai.
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Aug 20, 2022 01:03
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Yah the thing I don't get about complaining that deckers are off on their own is... Everyone's off on their own? The face doesn't do their job with Guns McChrome standing over their shoulder, the rigger is, aha, in the driver's seat if there's a car chase or they're doing drone recon, the street sam is more or less the only one who needs to show up to the fight. It's a game about specialists, why the hell are we complaining that their tasks are specialized?
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Aug 20, 2022 08:31
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The way to fix the Matrix is to just steal Astral Projection whole hog. The Matrix is a metaverse that mirrors the real world. You want to log on and go to your bank? It looks like the bank down the street. Off limits areas need hacking checks to access just like Astral Barriers, unless you're already inside in the meat. Split decking into three modes: infinite range projection that gives you huge penalties to hack, line of sight laser/rf at standard rolls and huge bonuses for being physically plugged into whatever you're cracking. One map, reasons for the decker to come along. Let them do cool combat hacking with the line of sight - glitching HUDs, ejecting magazines and such - and it's perfect.
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Aug 20, 2022 10:25
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That's pretty much exactly what the SR Returns games did, and it worked great. Let deckers give party buffs/enemy debuffs via ewarfare.
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Aug 20, 2022 16:13
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The matrix literally is another dimension. It is controlled by physical hardware, such as cyber consoles, but Hosts do not exist in the real world. They exist in a coterminous matrix space that overlaps with a facility in the real world. When you hot sim, you are projecting your essence into the equivalent of the astral plane in much the same way as an astrally projecting magician.
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Aug 20, 2022 16:49
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Liquid Communism posted:That's pretty much exactly what the SR Returns games did, and it worked great. Let deckers give party buffs/enemy debuffs via ewarfare. It did felt like a good way to implement the whole 'everything is wireless including your cyberware' that whichever edition introduced that was mostly just irritating there.
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Aug 20, 2022 17:53
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wiegieman posted:The matrix literally is another dimension. It is controlled by physical hardware, such as cyber consoles, but Hosts do not exist in the real world. They exist in a coterminous matrix space that overlaps with a facility in the real world. It should be this (unless 6e changed it to be this). I always kinda made hosts to have a section that mirrored the real world, and a virtual that was completely abstracted.
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Aug 20, 2022 19:54
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ninjoatse.cx posted:It should be this (unless 6e changed it to be this). I always kinda made hosts to have a section that mirrored the real world, and a virtual that was completely abstracted. 6e changed it slightly in that whoever wrote it heard of 'cloud computing' and decided computers are clearly magic and thus the Matrix no longer requires the existence of hardware, and the corps are all hunky dory with not having physical control of their data security. Because there are, for some dumbass reason, inexplicably huge Ultraviolet hosts (with rules just lifted from metaplanes) you have to dungeoncrawl to make administrative changes, and nobody who pays for the power, cooling, and spares for all this gear apparently notices.
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Aug 20, 2022 22:07
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It's like 6e took the dumbest parts of 5e and asked, "can we go dumber?"
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Aug 21, 2022 15:45
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Liquid Communism posted:6e changed it slightly in that whoever wrote it heard of 'cloud computing' and decided computers are clearly magic and thus the Matrix no longer requires the existence of hardware, and the corps are all hunky dory with not having physical control of their data security. The elements of processing power disconnected from physical hardware began in 4e. I won't say it's as big of a mental disconnect as it can be made out to be if you consider processing power like currency. As long as you put it out there and get it back as it's needed in proportional, control it isn't as big of a deal. The UV hosts are from 3E. They were made so non-deckers could participate in matrix runs in plot critical points. Seeing them ham fistedly jammed into the core method of how things are supposed to be is really just a massive waste of setting potential and rules rewrites.
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Aug 21, 2022 16:36
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ninjoatse.cx posted:The elements of processing power disconnected from physical hardware began in 4e. I won't say it's as big of a mental disconnect as it can be made out to be if you consider processing power like currency. As long as you put it out there and get it back as it's needed in proportional, control it isn't as big of a deal. It's still intensely dumb from a security standpoint. Data can't be processed without access to it. Letting any number of random machines access your data to process it, in a world where neural net processing good enough to reassemble said data not only exists but is something casually available, is a security nightmare. You'd legitimately be safer just posting your data to Jackpoint and asking shadowrunners to do the work, because they at least know how to keep their mouths shut. ninjoatse.cx posted:The UV hosts are from 3E. They were made so non-deckers could participate in matrix runs in plot critical points. Seeing them ham fistedly jammed into the core method of how things are supposed to be is really just a massive waste of setting potential and rules rewrites. UV hosts from 3E are an interesting concept. The Foundation is dumber than I can possibly capture in a single shitpost, but all starts from the idea that the post-C-C-Crash Matrix runs on a bunch of lobotomized technomancers instead of a hardware backbone.
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Aug 22, 2022 01:24
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Liquid Communism posted:The Foundation is dumber than I can possibly capture in a single shitpost, but all starts from the idea that the post-C-C-Crash Matrix runs on a bunch of lobotomized technomancers instead of a hardware backbone. "a-tech-wizard-did-it"
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Aug 22, 2022 01:35
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Liquid Communism posted:It's still intensely dumb from a security standpoint. Data can't be processed without access to it. Letting any number of random machines access your data to process it, in a world where neural net processing good enough to reassemble said data not only exists but is something casually available, is a security nightmare. You'd legitimately be safer just posting your data to Jackpoint and asking shadowrunners to do the work, because they at least know how to keep their mouths shut. From a "practical" (as practical as believability science fiction allows) standpoint, it'd be pretty hard to put a quantum processor in your cybereyes. Then again, one of the setting's concessions is that magic works, so it's all out the window.
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Aug 22, 2022 01:53
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Not only does it work, but it now works on the Internet. Not to mention that there are hundreds of thousands of General Purpose AIs running around the Matrix now, circa 50k of them thinking they're deckers who were jacked in when the Crash 2.0 happened.
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Aug 22, 2022 01:58
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I never bought kill code, because I was sick of giving CGL money. I think this was the correct decision.
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Aug 22, 2022 02:33
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Liquid Communism posted:It's still intensely dumb from a security standpoint. Data can't be processed without access to it. Letting any number of random machines access your data to process it, in a world where neural net processing good enough to reassemble said data not only exists but is something casually available, is a security nightmare. You'd legitimately be safer just posting your data to Jackpoint and asking shadowrunners to do the work, because they at least know how to keep their mouths shut. No, they're long dead. NeoNet used them like an inter-dimensional drilling rig to create the original resonance wells, and now the resonance spills out into the world following its own weird rules just like the astral plane does. The whole point is that when presented with a whole new frontier of science, the corps kidnapped a bunch of talented kids and worked them to death to get better latency times, save money on server hardware, and migrate the world's entire internet to a dimension that they alone control. It didn't work out that way because they aren't as smart as they think they are, but it did come close. The new matrix paradigm doesn't run on real computers, and it's meant to disempower you. The matrix is supposed to be frightening, and it wasn't because there were too many people who knew how networks actually worked playing Shadowrun. The foundation-based matrix is supposed to capture the idea of cyberspace as another world that you can explore, one that is dangerous and strange. Whether it does that is up to you, but what I can say for certain is that leaving everything hardwired would have been dumb as hell once my grandma set up her own wifi.
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Aug 23, 2022 22:45
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Your grandma set up her own wifi, yet everyone doing serious commercial work is still running hardlines. Consumer adoption of a technology does not mean it is fit for purpose or makes sense for people who are trying to keep their poo poo from being stolen to use.
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Sep 13, 2022 06:35
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You pretty much have to give yourself whole-sale over to the conceits of the setting. In every edition corp data is plugged into the ‘trix because either other stuff needs it or it needs something else. The data isn’t on a 3x5 index card in a closet somewhere. It’s being used and referenced. The setting considers moore’s law to be true into the far future from when it was written. The vr in the matrix is necessary because there is no other way for the end users to even interface with the data constructs in a meaningful manner other than the abstractions the matrix provides them. If that still seems like unbelievable fiction, keep in mind the setting also has magic in it.
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Sep 13, 2022 07:01
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The matrix is also basically magic isn't it? Not just narrative conceit but like it has weird dimensional properties or something?
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Sep 14, 2022 19:22
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The Matrix doesn't exist, strictly speaking. It's entirely notional, an interface for computer programs. That's why you can't do magic to it.
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Sep 14, 2022 19:46
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Mr. Lobe posted:The matrix is also basically magic isn't it? Not just narrative conceit but like it has weird dimensional properties or something? In which edition? They did so much hand waving for what the resonance is it’s NOT MAGIC magic. I kinda liked how the lore used to give lots of theories on why some magic worked and some didn’t, but no answers. Resonance is a bunch of resonance users got together and made resonance. Chicken and egg, what can ya do? Wokka wokka wokka ninjoatse.cx fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 20:37
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In the current edition? Yeah, it's magic, mechanically and most likely in-world. They gave up and just cribbed the rules for mages, and even added metaplanar quests to change your admin settings in the form of Foundation runs.
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Sep 15, 2022 08:06
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Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself. Except that's a lie because I started playing Shadowrun at 4th edition and I still don't fully understand it. 
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Sep 16, 2022 00:07
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I've started playing this game bc someone was nice enough to want me to play with them, and built me a dude. Every session I've played so far has included: -Something something capitalism -Pause to discuss what rule a roll is under -The one guy that knows what page it is -The other guy that quibbles -Naked intention to kill our patron -The one character that lives on slurry for magic -drat, THAT'S A LOT OF DICE -Myself,  at mechanical decisions -Centaur, with explosives -Pause again to discuss what should be a very simple action, but for some reason has a whole subsystem of mechanics -Shorter pause for complex action that has simple mechanics -My character has worms.  This is a good thing. -Think about life -Wonder that this game has character sheets so complex they need a dedicated app I've come here to ask if this is the regular experience, as I'm new to the series. I like a lot of setting things, but is there any resource that has a lot of basics written in a simple format? The main book couches a lot of rules in flavor text, which is diverting, but makes picking out what I need very slow. I've been intimidated by the sheer walls of text to sift. I don't care if it's dry, I just want the rules, so I can understand it better and not be trouble for my friends.
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Sep 16, 2022 09:02
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That sounds like a fairly regular experience yes. Especially the complex mechanics part.
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Sep 16, 2022 09:59
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Unfortunately Shadowrun is just...like this. e: I'm pretty sure in Rigger 2, SR was the first rpg system I encountered that asked you to calculate a square root for some mechanic.
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Sep 16, 2022 13:45
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I remember taking look at the explosion rules for 4th and my mind went blank. Not even the Neotech 2 explosion rules were that clunky, and they were pretty bad as well.
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Sep 16, 2022 14:00
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I don't mind so much that things are complex, it's mostly that the rules are not laid out on the books well at all. I've been making little cheat sheets of what I use most. That said, I do think I'm going to not do rigging, now that I know square roots come up!
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Sep 16, 2022 14:02
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DicktheCat posted:I don't mind so much that things are complex, it's mostly that the rules are not laid out on the books well at all. Unless you are playing a really old edition, you don't need to worry about that (its ok though, its still a good move if avoiding complexity).
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Sep 16, 2022 14:21
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DicktheCat posted:I don't mind so much that things are complex, it's mostly that the rules are not laid out on the books well at all. I have bad news for you about how Catalyst approaches editing and layout.
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Sep 16, 2022 14:46
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DicktheCat posted:I don't mind so much that things are complex, it's mostly that the rules are not laid out on the books well at all. They only came up in the vehicle creation/modification rules, and Rigger 2 was in second edition, so that was a long ways back. Not that vehicle rules have been good in any edition. They always acknowledge they're bad and try to change them. Which edition are you playing? I have loads of experience game mastering 5th, but 6th turned everything on its head and did some really dumb things RAW, so I noped out of it.
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Sep 16, 2022 14:48
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I feel we should rename the thread Shadowrun: We don't talk about Sixth Edition.
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Sep 16, 2022 15:11
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Cooked Auto posted:I feel we should rename the thread Shadowrun: We don't talk about Sixth Edition. It's just so bad. What makes it all the worse is that you can see what their intentions are, and it could have been a large improvement over 5th if they had play tested it AT ALL or listened to community feedback... which is hard to get when you don't play test.
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Sep 16, 2022 15:41
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I'm playing a fresh runners in the shadows (blades in the dark hack) campaign and it works great. the downtime phase is crunchy enough but the gameplay is simple and you just get to interact with the awesome setting.
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Sep 16, 2022 15:42
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If I had to freeze time I'd probably stick with 3rd edition, but I acknowledge I'm a bit groggy about it.
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Sep 16, 2022 16:43
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Wasn't there also square roots or something in calculating damage when using explosives at some point? I have a vague memory of having to do significant math like that for determining damage to a structure or something.
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Sep 16, 2022 16:49
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I don't think it ever showed up in the core rules but some splats got real out there
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Sep 16, 2022 17:23
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The base book have the terrible chunky salsa rule which involves calculating the blast damage bouncing, for all 8 directions. Terrible because unless you're in an open field when a grenade goes off you might as well tear up your character sheet as you need to fill your 8-12 hit boxes with three digit damage numbers.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:00
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Poil posted:The base book have the terrible chunky salsa rule which involves calculating the blast damage bouncing, for all 8 directions. Base 1E and 2E it was impossible to die from a single source of damage, until Fields of Fire, I believe it was, introduced the Chunky Salsa rule.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:07
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Poil posted:The base book have the terrible chunky salsa rule which involves calculating the blast damage bouncing, for all 8 directions.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:19
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