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Relax Or DIE posted:if the thread wants a new argument to have i would be curious to hear where people think the FF games actually succeed at this because they do often try Caius' immortality in XIII-2 which is represented by a unique status effect/buff he has in battle. And for the super worst example of gameplay vs. story, see FFX where our heroes fight several men wielding rifles in battle then are stymied by men holding rifles a minute later in a cutscene. It has irritated me for 20 years.
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Sep 17, 2022 05:22
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I know there's someone playing through FF7 in the thread rn, so what's the general spoiler policy for this thread? Anyway, idk exactly if it fits, but I think, in FF6, The MC shift from Terra to Celes is great at marking the rather stark tone shift between the WoB and the WoR. Somewhat on this topic, I watched this video about the animation of FF4, and--while I think it kind of loses track of its thesis--I think it makes a good observation on how it was the first FF to extensively use its battle scenes and systems for narrative beats and character progression, and it should probably be more recognized in the series for doing that specifically. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWXnTeM1MGc
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Sep 17, 2022 05:30
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NikkolasKing posted:A story has to be cohesive and obey an internal logic
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Sep 17, 2022 06:01
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Evil Fluffy posted:If by "pet theory" you mean "widely known fact." The Eye/Phantom enemies in the famicon version were beholders, with very obvious Beholder sprites. Wizards were mindflayers. All 4 fiends are prominent D&D enemies...etc. Nah, my pet theory part was about them basing Red Mages on the mage robe colors from Dragonlance, which I suspected based on the established fact that FF1 was a D&D ripoff. FrostyPox posted:I'd say spears and jumping are critical to being a Dragoon and this Kimarhi is one cuz of his Jump Overdrive, whereas XII doesn't have any Dragoons cuz while there are spear-weilding characters, none of them jump. I declared Ulhan the official Dragoon in XII in my summary but it's not, really. Same with Halver in XI Actually, there is a neutral Bangaa NPC that would sometimes show up in the deserts around Rabinastre fighting monsters, and they used a spear and DID have a jump attack- the fact that it was coded into the game and we weren't allowed to use it always made me cranky.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:02
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nikkolas and gaius arguing:
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Sep 17, 2022 06:08
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The final dungeon of IX is a place conjured from the memories of all life in the universe, and an entity embodying nihilism in the face of death is extremely appropriate, signifying that it's a universal fear at the core of all life. It would honestly be weird and anticlimactic if you didn't fight something so grandiose at the origin point of all life. Necron represents the fears you've watched the party fight against through the entire game, and wanting more elaboration about what it is is missing the point - we all know what it is because it's a part of being alive. If I could give Necron a criticism it's that making it a big blue guy rather than something as abstract as Ozma leads people down the wrong path; thinking there's an actual character there, and there are unanswered questions.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:08
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Schwartzcough posted:Nah, my pet theory part was about them basing Red Mages on the mage robe colors from Dragonlance, which I suspected based on the established fact that FF1 was a D&D ripoff. I think the same on the Red Mage. Dragoon is a bangaa job in FFTA/2, so that’s consistent.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:08
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Blue Labrador posted:I know there's someone playing through FF7 in the thread rn, so what's the general spoiler policy for this thread? its something the series has kinda abandoned which is a shame, its neat when games embrace the fact that they're video game-y. of course with the shift to real time combat its harder to do, but its not impossible, the devil may cry series has some decent instances of this. ff14 has some examples too, like some of the gold saucer combat-adjacent minigames. Endorph fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 06:10
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Blue Labrador posted:I know there's someone playing through FF7 in the thread rn, so what's the general spoiler policy for this thread? i Thhhink the general spoiler policy is to tag stuff thats a Big Deal gameplay/story wise?? Endorph posted:nikkolas and gaius arguing: lmao
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Sep 17, 2022 06:13
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FrostyPox posted:Tifa just called Barret a r**ard Is this what the R in FFVII-R is for?
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Sep 17, 2022 06:14
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Endorph posted:im so glad a guy who literally does not understand the concept of art is a games mod "Your inability to understand art clearly prohibits you from recognizing a person who says the F-slur should be probated." Maybe I don't get art but you don't understand anything based on this stupid rear end post.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:16
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I got spoiled on Necron wayyy before I ever even got any opportunity to even play IX, so I wish I could've gone into that fight blind. When I did play the game, I liked how the fight was implemented and thought the thematics did enough lifting for the fight to make sense, but I also knew it was coming ahead of time, so I feel I can't fully speak about how well it was built up from a fresh-eyed lens.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:17
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Endorph posted:nikkolas and gaius arguing: I appreciate the comparison to the Platonic Socrates.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:17
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NikkolasKing posted:"Your inability to understand art clearly prohibits you from recognizing a person who says the F-slur should be probated." Maybe I don't get art but you don't understand anything based on this stupid rear end post. 
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Sep 17, 2022 06:17
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NikkolasKing posted:"Your inability to understand art clearly prohibits you from recognizing a person who says the F-slur should be probated." Maybe I don't get art but you don't understand anything based on this stupid rear end post. well im glad we agree at least, namaste also spoiler policy tends to be pretty open season unless someone is actively posting about being new to a game, then its just the obvious stuff. if its a big plot twist spoil it, but i dont think you need to spoil, idk, vincents name. is vincent even mentioned anywhere if you dont recruit him.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:18
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Endorph posted:also spoiler policy tends to be pretty open season unless someone is actively posting about being new to a game, then its just the obvious stuff. if its a big plot twist spoil it, but i dont think you need to spoil, idk, vincents name. is vincent even mentioned anywhere if you dont recruit him. i feel like hes vaguely hinted at in the area u get him in, but its honestly real fuzzy
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Sep 17, 2022 06:21
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also speaking personally even as a kid i thought necron was fine. he was kinda outta nowhere and you could definitely do a version of the game where kuja is the final boss but i think necron works because of the game's thematic statement that kuja was ultimately just afraid of the same thing everyone else was, he wasnt really some kind of uber big bad, just a very scared young man whose 'father' had never emotionally prepared him for that fear. i dont really care about any kind of logical explanation for him for the same reason i dont really need a logical explanation for what the lifestream is in ff7 (beyond just 'a big well of souls i guess') or what planet jenovas from or why she looks fairly human for whats meant to be an alien.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:22
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that said hades was originally planned to be the final boss and the switch to necron was apparently extremely late in development - the colosseum like arena makes much more sense with a final boss based on a greek god -so i wonder if that is part of it. even if you made literally everything else the same, having necron have a name people would recognize immediately as a god of death would probably make people give it a pass in terms of 'logic.' on the other hand, i like how in the final game necron seems a bit more inexplicable/beyond that kind of categorization. heres concept art of the final boss arena, you can see hades there instead of necron 
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Sep 17, 2022 06:26
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lol at anyone engaging gaius or endorph for any reason but lolling at them Go go FF thread!
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Sep 17, 2022 06:27
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PneumonicBook posted:lol at anyone engaging gaius or endorph for any reason but lolling at them
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Sep 17, 2022 06:28
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Pigbuster posted:The final dungeon of IX is a place conjured from the memories of all life in the universe, and an entity embodying nihilism in the face of death is extremely appropriate, signifying that it's a universal fear at the core of all life. It would honestly be weird and anticlimactic if you didn't fight something so grandiose at the origin point of all life. Necron represents the fears you've watched the party fight against through the entire game, and wanting more elaboration about what it is is missing the point - we all know what it is because it's a part of being alive. Why does it have to be grandiose and by grandiose I mean insultingly on-the-nose? The fear of death was perfectly encapsulated in Kuja who was willing to destroy he universe rather than face his mortality. That act of pettiness is all the fear of death is and even Necron's own dialogue is that he was summoned by Kuja's perfect embodiment of this fear. Basically he didn't actually add anything. Do people really not understand Vivi conquered his fear of death before the end of Disk 4? You need to punch it in the face, too?
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Sep 17, 2022 06:31
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I'm also of the opinion that Necron thematically fits the game, but suddenly introducing them at literally the last second as an actual personification of an abstract concept, complete with dialog, who wants to get in a fist-fight with you- comes across as clumsy. If you want to have a personification of an abstract idea be your final "villain" you have to beat up, you could do things like have Kuja hearing a voice speak to him, or even something talking to Zidane while he went through his existential crisis, or something to indicate that there is a sentient being with a physical body that's going to be a final roadblock. Because otherwise the characters can overcome abstract fears and accept facets of life without literally stabbing them with swords.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:33
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NikkolasKing posted:Why does it have to be grandiose and by grandiose I mean insultingly on-the-nose? The fear of death was perfectly encapsulated in Kuja who was willing to destroy he universe rather than face his mortality. That act of pettiness is all the fear of death is and even Necron's own dialogue is that he was summoned by Kuja's perfect embodiment of this fear. punching stuff is cool
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Sep 17, 2022 06:33
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you the player need to confront your fear of death to join the characters on that journey. therefore necron needs to turn directly to the camera and read your memory card to determine your age via what other games are on it, guesstimate your age, and then say 'you will be dead by 2050' or whatever.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:34
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Endorph posted:wait what did i do to be fair I skipped a bunch of replies but it looks like I unfairly lumped you in there, my bad Endorph
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Sep 17, 2022 06:35
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⬆️dammit make up your mind⬆️ I already lolled at them. Endorph posted:wait what did i do lol
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Sep 17, 2022 06:35
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PneumonicBook posted:to be fair I skipped a bunch of replies but it looks like I unfairly lumped you in there, my bad Endorph np mostly i just think the hades information is really interesting in the context of the necron conversation
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Sep 17, 2022 06:35
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Hades being the original concept for FF9's final boss is like a fun fact but its hard to imagine him being any different to Necron functionally. I kinda imagine it'd work out exactly the same way and people's opinions wouldn't be any different. Anyway Necron's a fine final boss. Not like a good character and its not especially essential to the game or whatever, but it's not as if it really detracts anything.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:38
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Endorph posted:that said hades was originally planned to be the final boss and the switch to necron was apparently extremely late in development - the colosseum like arena makes much more sense with a final boss based on a greek god -so i wonder if that is part of it. even if you made literally everything else the same, having necron have a name people would recognize immediately as a god of death would probably make people give it a pass in terms of 'logic.' on the other hand, i like how in the final game necron seems a bit more inexplicable/beyond that kind of categorization. While phrasing this feels very weird, I feel like swapping Hades to Necron gave up the theme of the final boss being immediately readable in favor of it being harder to misread. The whole of FFIX is all about grappling with death as a concept in all manner of ways, and Kuja's whole stress is about the fear of death--not of what comes after, but rather the cessation of life, that someday his life's just gonna stop. Hades being the god of the underworld does nail down that 'it's about death' angle, but it actually kinda nails it in the wrong place; it would seem like the thing to be scared of wasn't death, but the afterlife, which would send reading of Kuja's story in the wrong direction. Rather than 'someday you die and that's scary', being 'someday you'll die and go to hell, and that's scary'. Essentially, they picked 'some people will get exactly where we're coming from but others won't' over 'everyone will initially slightly misread our story'.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:39
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Cleretic posted:While phrasing this feels very weird, I feel like swapping Hades to Necron gave up the theme of the final boss being immediately readable in favor of it being harder to misread. yeah that is an interesting point. if anything hades also somewhat conflicts with the game's own worldbuilding because the lifa tree and the crystal/soul thing makes the setup seem more buddhist. you're born, you die, you go to the crystal where your memories are purged to feed the planet, and then your soul energy is used to make a new life. having a god of death or a dude who rules hell or whatever doesnt quite fit. unlike a buddhist setup, ff9 also leans more towards the 'you aren't really 'you' anymore after you die.' the memories get purged and there isnt really any kind of mention of a karmic balance. it seems like you're just raw soul energy and its your human experiences that form 'you,' and those are confined to a single life.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:43
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NikkolasKing posted:And for the super worst example of gameplay vs. story, see FFX where our heroes fight several men wielding rifles in battle then are stymied by men holding rifles a minute later in a cutscene. It has irritated me for 20 years. You seem tedious and unable to actually comprehend or understand the concept of art or narrative and I think you should probably just stop playing games in general, or at least stop discussing them because even these games for children seem well out of your wheel house. Cleretic posted:While phrasing this feels very weird, I feel like swapping Hades to Necron gave up the theme of the final boss being immediately readable in favor of it being harder to misread. I'd agree with this. Kuja and the narratives general fascination and fear of death is this primal fear of it. It's not about 'where' we go it's a fear of going at all and Necron being this abstract but visceral manifestation of death fits that way better than the more well worn and formed concept of Hades.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:45
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Schwartzcough posted:I'm also of the opinion that Necron thematically fits the game, but suddenly introducing them at literally the last second as an actual personification of an abstract concept, complete with dialog, who wants to get in a fist-fight with you- comes across as clumsy. If you want to have a personification of an abstract idea be your final "villain" you have to beat up, you could do things like have Kuja hearing a voice speak to him, or even something talking to Zidane while he went through his existential crisis, or something to indicate that there is a sentient being with a physical body that's going to be a final roadblock. It's a little interesting that Yu Yevon is very similar to Necron in the sense of being a symbolic final enemy that encapsulates the game's themes in a neat little bow, but Yu Yevon just happens to be more diagetic about it, being given lore and a mechanical explanation for his presence inside Sin. While Yu Yevon has definitely ruffled way less feathers, I do think Necron is more memorable and is brought up for conversation more, so I'd argue he's more impactful, for better or worse. Endorph posted:even if you made literally everything else the same, having necron have a name people would recognize immediately as a god of death would probably make people give it a pass in terms of 'logic.' on the other hand, i like how in the final game necron seems a bit more inexplicable/beyond that kind of categorization. This is also a pretty great point, especially in tandem with the point that Necron looks a lot like a monster/character and less like a concept. Necron's name is pretty obviously referring to death, but FF as a whole plays so loosey-goosey with mythological references and faux-Latin, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought it was just an attempt at a badass name for some monster, and not a more pointed attempt at a symbolic bookend.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:45
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You seem tedious and unable to actually comprehend or understand the concept of art or narrative and I think you should probably just stop playing games in general, or at least stop discussing them because even these games for children seem well out of your wheel house. I think it's jarring that I can get shot by enough bullets and lit on fire and stabbed by swords that I collapse on the ground and a person can cast 'life' on me, and I'm supposed to pretend like death has meaning in final fantasy
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Sep 17, 2022 06:47
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jokes posted:I think it's jarring that I can get shot by enough bullets and lit on fire and stabbed by swords that I collapse on the ground and a person can cast 'life' on me, and I'm supposed to pretend like death has meaning in final fantasy Why doesn't Kuja just use a phoenix down after he dies?
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Sep 17, 2022 06:52
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jokes posted:I think it's jarring that I can get shot by enough bullets and lit on fire and stabbed by swords that I collapse on the ground and a person can cast 'life' on me, and I'm supposed to pretend like death has meaning in final fantasy There's a bell curve of stupidity that comes with age and believed intelligent where literal children can follow a narrative and theme and understand where the facade of gameplay has to bend and give way to narrative weight (As most of us did playing these for the first time) and then as we get older we start to try and out think the narrative by being Above it by refusing to engage with it's story telling and the trappings of the medium through which the story is brought to us. In doing this we basically rob it of any actual emotional connection and weight and essentially sever ourselves and our hearts entirely from Art as a concept, what it tries to do what it means to us and basically turn into living listicles spouting plot points and talking about plot holes but not actually understanding the piece on any real intellectual or emotional level. Which is exemplified in this topic by two posters who repeatedly reject basically the concept of narrative or subtext existing in general. And we should purge that dark urge from our hearts and actually try to engage with narratives and art because that's where legitimately smart and interesting discussion comes from not from "Okay THIS bit of dissonance rends the whole thing pointless."
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Sep 17, 2022 06:54
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The Platonic transmigration of the soul is pretty similar to Buddhist, and FFIXian philosophy with them being judged before reincarnation. So hades is fine if a little weaker than necron perhaps.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:55
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Gaius Marius posted:The Platonic transmigration of the soul is pretty similar to Buddhist, and FFIXian philosophy with them being judged before reincarnation. So hades is fine if a little weaker than necron perhaps. I don't think it's be bad or missing the overall message, i think it would just be weaker for it.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:58
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Why didn't anyone in FF4 simply cast detect magic?
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Sep 17, 2022 06:59
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yeah and why's it called final fantasy anyway????? and how about those airline peanuts
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Sep 17, 2022 07:00
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You seem tedious and unable to actually comprehend or understand the concept of art or narrative and I think you should probably just stop playing games in general, or at least stop discussing them because even these games for children seem well out of your wheel house. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=0&threadid=3983885&pagenumber=440&perpage=40#post526329013 The topic was when a game's mechanics work with the narrative. I pointed out a flagrant time this didn't happen, when guns are fatal in cutscene mere moments after they are worthless in battle. What the gently caress is your problem.
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Sep 17, 2022 07:01
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