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Kibner posted:i thought the capacitor thing was a red herring and not the actual problem, just an early theory? Bit of column A and bit of column B. All the makers had different capacitor setups across their lines of cards but since these cards are already tuned out of the box (hence barely any OC headroom), they were more sensitive to voltage fluctuations. Most of these issues were resolved with driver updates.
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Sep 19, 2022 21:55
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Speaking of EVGA, their extra anniversary hype event tee shirts, which have abruptly taken on a different meaning, are still being offloaded on their store. I guess it's not that weird, since it's just corporate branding merch that serves no purpose but to get the name out there and/or make a buck, but still: They were throwing them in if you bought some discount bundles during that event. Seems a bit soon to make a joke out of it, given the likely impending layoffs and that this probably won't be a change that's good for consumers, but they're ten bucks a pop with free shipping for all sizes if someone feels different or wants an ironic vintage tee in the making.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:00
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Femur posted:How does one know if they got a bad batch? Install a vintage build of New Worlds It's wild that I'm learning that this was a capacitator issue. Was it something like: the driver does not adequate schedule the load -> the game is allowed to wildly ramp up GPU load -> the capacitators fail? So two different systems had to fail jointly in an unsafe state? Lord Stimperor fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 22:04
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The caps aren't what failed, the VRM MOSFETs exploded on those EVGA 3090s IIRC the cap theory was related to instability, not explosive hardware failure repiv fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 22:11
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If it only lasted 4 more years it could have been part of an esteemed club.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:14
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repiv posted:The caps aren't what failed, the VRM MOSFETs exploded on those EVGA 3090s yeah you know what you're right, it was a whole other black screen ctd thing that was going around, my fault.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:16
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Because it happened predominantly to their cards, and it was a result of a hardware flaw. Nobody was really able to substantiate claims that a significant number of other cards were dying. It affected EVGA quite harshly too because they have (had?) a really generous RMA scheme that must have been costing them a pretty penny when a load of dead 3090s started turning up.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:25
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EVGA claims that only a very small portion of cards were RMA'ed, like a couple dozen maybe? But maybe the actual figure was much larger than they let on.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:33
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buglord posted:If it only lasted 4 more years it could have been part of an esteemed club. The club of people Leonardo decaprio won’t date?
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Sep 19, 2022 22:34
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buglord posted:Definitely correct me if I’m wrong because I likely am, but the takeaway I’m getting from Igor’s POV is: As I understand it the EVGA being petty part was from the past, I think he only listed it as an example for EVGA doing shady stuff in the background that clashes with their "we're the good guys and everyone else was evil" claims. Definitely some personal issues in play, at least. Lockback posted:[...] Also German guy thinks German companies are much better. Shocking. Lord Stimperor posted:Does anyone know if that's a DeepL-generated translation or something? All the comments are quoting the German article and some of the phrasing is quite funky. I'm not complaining it just sounds a little bit, well, quaint here and there.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:45
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:EVGA claims that only a very small portion of cards were RMA'ed, like a couple dozen maybe? But maybe the actual figure was much larger than they let on. There were also multiple other issues with those first 3090s that you can see in their forums, too. Some cards would refuse to go above ~400w even with the XOC 450w+ BIOS (which EVGA offered card swaps for), they used thermal putty on the left VRM that would ooze out when hot and leave the VRMs to cook without any cooling (which EVGA offered card swaps for and eventually starting shipping the putty itself out instead), they had rear thermal pad mounting problems that left them with bad contact with the backplate and caused the rear memory to sit at TJmax while gaming etc. Plus the solder joint issues, and the powersupply tripping issues that I'm sure lead to more returns than normal, etc. They dual sourced the first batches from a factory in TW and a factory in PRC, and one of them apparently just wasnt up to to the task. Although some of those problems impacted both. Mine had all three of those issues, but I didn't bother swapping it because Evga wasnt giving a time estimate for the swap and I didn't want to sit without a GPU in the middle of the shortage. And it didnt to seem to be impacted by the big 3090 suiciding issues, so i figured I would just count my blessings. Evga also had the issue of selling the most cards in the US, so they had the most english language coverage of their failures. But Ampere def wasn't their shining moment.
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Sep 19, 2022 23:10
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Yikes. Seems that even as a middle man company there is plenty you can gently caress up
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Sep 19, 2022 23:15
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Kibner posted:I think they were losing money on the 3080 and up but making money on the rest of the stack. I would not be surprised if Nvidia forced AIBs to buy a certain number of those "loss leader" cards (that Nvidia also prohibited from selling above a certain price ceiling) in order to also purchase the ones they actually make money on. the point is that the losing money thing is something that's happened in the last month as crypto finally crashed for real and partners have been forced to cut prices to move their remaining inventory. he's saying the EVGA CEO was being disingenuous by pointing to something that's happened in the last month and implying that it'd been a running problem for the whole gen. his other AIB partners told him no, that's bullshit, they made 10x the normal profit last year (coached as a hypothetical but this is close enough to real numbers imo) and that EVGA should still be able to achieve around 5% and bigger partners (with in-house assembly rather than contracted) should be closer to 10%. the other partners more or less say they think EVGA wants to quit on a high-note - they made 10x the profit they normally would have last year, the next couple years are going to be very rough (low margin) for partners as that inventory bubble burns through, and it's a generational changeover that gives them the ability to cut support/warranty cleanly. But they don't seem to think there's anything particularly abnormal that drove EVGA out here, just got to the point where it wasn't worth it for them and the CEO wanted to make it a dramatic exit. if you look at when the 3090 ti started getting super heavy markdowns, that's when the pain probably started for partners, because it doesn't sound like that's been allocated MDF funding from NVIDIA. So they make 10% margin on a $2,000 card, meaning they pay $1800 to build it, and now it's marked down to $1000, so yeah they're losing hundreds of dollars on every card. And that's particularly pronounced on the 3090/3090 Ti where they were turbo-overpriced to begin with and now they're coming down to earth hard. When you start having new 3080s getting down into the $500 range, that's a problem for partners too. But the lower stuff still has come down much less (it's not half of MSRP like a 3090 ti) so it's less painful there (3060 in particular hasn't come down at all and is still hilariously profitable). maybe NVIDIA will do something to ease the pain here, but who knows, they may be getting sick of the "heads I win / tails you lose" crap from partners... partners inevitably over-order during these mining booms, make a bunch of profit, and then want refunds on any leftovers they couldn't sell. If partners aren't smoothing inventory for NVIDIA, there's not really a lot of other reasons for them to be getting a cut. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 23:17
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The one EVGA card I owned (Turing gen) had lovely fan bearings, and when I brought it up here people said they still use those lovely fans on Ampere cards Maybe their support would have been good if I'd used it, but they seemingly cheaped out on the fans on purpose so a replacement card probably would have had the same issue
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Sep 19, 2022 23:20
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repiv posted:The one EVGA card I owned (Turing gen) had lovely fan bearings, and when I brought it up here people said they still use those lovely fans on Ampere cards what igor is going for with that, imo, is that EVGA has actually had a fairly high rate of defects overall, across multiple generations. They had bad 1080 caps that were burning out, they had bad soldering on the early 3090s, etc. I dunno if it's because they are using a contractor or what - you gotta watch chinese factories really really close and even a few slips or cut corners here and there can add up. But the thing is EVGA would always take care of you if you had a problem, so people gave them a pass. But all these defects hurt EVGA financially, especially when you have a generous warranty policy, because when you make 5% margins you eat that up real quick with warranty work. If their defect rate is twice as high as competitors, and they cover you for 3x as long... it costs them. that said, while the FTW3 were non-reference (iirc) it's not like they were doing zany poo poo either. nobody really knows the exact post-mortem or scope of either the New Worlds issue or the POSCAP/MLCC thing but some people reported problems/failures with other cards/other brands too. New Worlds seemed to be some failure of the fan controller and it could also fail in the same way on the reference design. POSCAP/MLCC is a result of the way NVIDIA didn't allow partners to get drivers (to control leaks) until the actual launch, they had to use an engineering bios that simulated a thermal load so that nobody could estimate performance. But that means it always runs at a single clock, and NVIDIA ended up with problems related to when it changes boost state, just like your PC can be stable at prime95 for hours and then crash your PC as soon as it closes and drops to a lower p-state. So better filtering helps, as does better PSUs, etc, but, it could occur on any board really. NVIDIA patched the boost firmware to fix it most likely, but, that one was definitely not EVGA-specific. EVGA is generally in a bad spot here because they're so dominant in the US market that general problems that affect everyone are often incorrectly diagnosed (in both cases by Igor himself) as being EVGA problems. the kingpin stuff etc isn't tremendously salient and I'm not sure what he's going for there. yeah it's probably a money-loser for them overall but it's a prestige thing, and EVGA does chase clout like that sometimes. I think the motherboards and monitors thing was chasing clout too. but in the big picture all these little side things the CEO wants to do add up, and end up sapping EVGA's revenue.
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Sep 19, 2022 23:39
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orcane posted:What? There haven't been any German companies remaining in the GPU space for years, his industry contacts are mostly in the big AIBs (which are all in Taiwan or China) and their European/American distributors. From the article (bolding mine) quote:I never asked for money for my support, but would probably have been happy to receive a thank you now and then. By the way, this is exactly where you notice the difference between a US company like EVGA and a German medium-sized company. EVGA is extremely profit-oriented, and when things don’t go so well, they just part with a division. By the way, this is not reprehensible, but the explanations should then also be more honest. Maybe there's some truth to that but my experience working for and with corporations overseas is.... no it doesn't really matter and everyone is a greedy rear end in a top hat. I think otherwise is just capitalist jingoism more than anything else. Paul MaudDib posted:what igor is going for with that, imo, is that EVGA has actually had a fairly high rate of defects overall, across multiple generations. They had bad 1080 caps that were burning out, they had bad soldering on the early 3090s, etc. I dunno if it's because they are using a contractor or what - you gotta watch chinese factories really really close and even a few slips or cut corners here and there can add up. Yeah, exactly. Like you can have excellent service but if your defect rate isn't that great the outcome isn't going to be pretty especially as you enter the downside of a release cycle like this. I did like his quote about "If this was profitable everyone would do it". Lockback fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 23:55
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Any sim racer will tell you that noted German company Fanatec are gigantic price gougers with any international sales so yeah, that whole idea is bullshit.
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Sep 20, 2022 00:00
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Paul MaudDib posted:his other AIB partners told him no, that's bullshit, they made 10x the normal profit last year (coached as a hypothetical but this is close enough to real numbers imo) and that EVGA should still be able to achieve around 5% and bigger partners (with in-house assembly rather than contracted) should be closer to 10%. So I started this response looking to basically say "Well, actually if you do the math, I'm not sure the 10x profit margins is correct..." and then started crunching numbers... Granted, this is highly simplistic, but still, I think it's telling. For say a $329 RTX 3060, the 5% margin would EVGA at about $16.50 per 3060 sold. So for 10X profit, you'd be looking at EVGA selling it for about $465. They're highest-priced card appears to be at $430, so about 6x profit. Looking at the RTX 3070, and it's $499 MSRP, it'd be about $250 per card for 10x, or $750 total for a card. The highest end card, a FTW3 (08G-P5-3767-KL), had an MSRP of $720, so almost 9x, pretty good! The 3080 would be $350/card or $1050 total about, while the "normal" high end FTW3 (10G-P5-3899-KL) was $900, or still about 6x. The 3080 Ti would be $600/card or $1800 total, while the "normal" high end FTW3 (12G-P5-3967-KR) was $1430, or about 4x. The 3090 of course would be about $75/card or $750 for 10x, or now a $2250/card total. The "normal" high end FTW3 (24G-P5-3987-KR) was $1920, so a bit over 4x. Finally, the recent halo 3090 Ti would be about $100/card or $1,000/card for 10x, so at $3,000. The "normal" high end FTW3 (24G-P5-4985-KR) was $2,200 or approximately 2x. So... yeah, profit margins this generation on the typical "high end" FTW or Ultra Gaming mid-tier to early upper-tier cards, which they were usually producing the most of, were probably between 6x - 9x, including the 3080, which was surprising. Once you got above the 3080, yeah, it dropped as one would expect, but they were still making a decent profit. I could definitely see where if they had significant issues come up warranty-wise, how it would quickly cause even those profit margins to reduce/evaporate, as well as the step-up process (although they were charging quite a bit for B-stock for awhile too). I do think though that Igor is a little spiteful, just based off of the tone, and so I'd probably tell someone to apply caution/healthy skepticism to what he wrote. I also would probably caution on believing what other "competitors" say, simply because I have seen first hand how quickly companies will jump to criticize another vendor/manufacturer who is exiting a market or having issues or to express how they themselves have the "correct approach", though granted this is in a different industry. On one final note, I also think it's probably worth mentioning that the overall electrical industry is facing significant challenges in terms of procurement of a number of raw materials used in component fabrication and assembly, and I would be shocked if that also wasn't having carry over impacts on areas such as computer component fabrication. To put it into perspective, a lot of electrical suppliers are quoting almost two-year lead times on quite a few "standard" components, due to supply chain challenges. While I'm not saying this would cause similar timeframe delays with GPU manufacturing, I could definitely see where companies are having to pay significantly more just to maintain a baseline, minimally interrupted supply chain. While companies like ASUS and others could probably weather that some while minimizing to some extent the amount that is passed on to the consumer, I could see EVGA's manufacturing partners definitely passing along those added costs to EVGA, who is then going to try and pass it on to the consumer, but probably having to erode their profit margin significantly still in the process. So yeah, the market is probably hosed on the backend for at least the next 2 years, I'd guess more like 3-4 based on what I'm seeing, and they're just calling it quits... Canned Sunshine fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 01:28
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SourKraut posted:I do think though that Igor is a little spiteful, just based off of the tone, and so I'd probably tell someone to apply caution/healthy skepticism to what he wrote. I also would probably caution on believing what other "competitors" say, simply because I have seen first hand how quickly companies will jump to criticize another vendor/manufacturer who is exiting a market or having issues or to express how they themselves have the "correct approach", though granted this is in a different industry. oh absolutely, yeah, hemad about EVGA trying to turn the screws on him and then playing the angels. EVGA probably has the highest positive brand sentiment of any consumer electronics company, the public loves them, and they're kinda being drama queens and saying some things that kinda aren't true (losing hundreds of dollars per card sold, etc). You could just be like "alright well the market's been getting more difficult for years and we're facing a really down GPU market, we decided it was time to end our gpu business on a high note". They're kinda taking the dramatic exit. Yeah, jensen's a massive loving rear end in a top hat and the aib partner program has been a not-great deal for a while, for either NVIDIA or AMD. It used to be relatively easy money I think, but the boom/bust cycle is very pronounced right now due to crypto, and it's potentially a market where you have to suddenly write down inventory/etc, so you can be great right up until you're not. And especially for smaller companies it's a good point that the inventory bulges and any writedowns/losses/etc can be relatively much larger for smaller companies or ones without other channels (desktops/laptops/etc) to dump chips. Asus/MSI/Gigabyte are going to come out of this fine but evga or powercolor or sapphire may have a tougher road. SourKraut posted:On one final note, I also think it's probably worth mentioning that the overall electrical industry is facing significant challenges in terms of procurement of a number of raw materials used in component fabrication and assembly, and I would be shocked if that also wasn't having carry over impacts on areas such as computer component fabrication. To put it into perspective, a lot of electrical suppliers are quoting almost two-year lead times on quite a few "standard" components, due to supply chain challenges. a lot of the ICs are bundled by NVIDIA and probably they have some clout in getting supply. Not saying it's not a problem though, it's been a problem since april 2020 and yeah that's fair, it probably did incur some increased costs there to keep the chain running smoothly. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 04:29
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Board partners are free to not buy Nvidia's IC bundles, and I'm under the impression that this wasn't much of a thing before covid. But when supply chains went to poo poo, AMD and Nvidia came through and used their clout to secure a stream of supply at prices that wouldn't bankrupt their partners. Apparently this situation is much less hosed up now, and it's not increasing costs quite as much as it used to (according to statements from execs in the industry, at least)
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Sep 20, 2022 04:41
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given the capitalist paradigm of "it's not enough that you turn a profit, you also need to beat estimates and/or grow the profit year-on-year", I wonder if this decision by EVGA is driven by that, rather than necessarily facing a loss/downturn outright
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Sep 20, 2022 04:45
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I’m not sure how much profit they’ll generate without a GPU division. I wish them the best, but I can’t help but think of all the ways they could have played this differently.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:04
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IIRC EVGA is privately owned by one family? In that case they’d have the freedom to not pursue higher profits for whatever reason.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:05
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hobbesmaster posted:IIRC EVGA is privately owned by one family? In that case they’d have the freedom to not pursue higher profits for whatever reason. Yeah I was gonna say, I don't think this decision is motivated (at least not primarily) by the stereotypical capitalist "more and more profit at any cost" hellscape mentality; it feels more emotionally motivated, irrational, and/or opaque, like you might see from a company that doesn't have to answer to boards or shareholders.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:21
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I see, okay.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:22
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I just ordered one of those "23 YEARS!" EVGA anniversary shirts because it was $10 with free shipping so, gently caress it. It's gonna be worth something at some point.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:25
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Yeah I ordered the shirt. I've owned... four EVGA cards over the years I think. Maybe more if I count really low end poo poo. It really feels like a funeral, like the company is going under. And maybe it is.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:36
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who's up for some extremely weird geopolitical situations: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-tsmc-rush-orders-before-china-sanctions TSMC and Nvidia to rush fulfill as many Chinese datacenter GPU orders as possible before US sanctions kick in.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:48
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Also, we are about 9 hours and 25 minutes away from the rtx 40-series announcement. It seems as though the 4090 and both 4080s will be announced at once, so we can likely expect all three to come out before the end of the year. We basically already know the specs (unless nvidia is going to pull any last-minute surprises, which can happen), but real-world performance is still up in the air, not that you should trust what Nvidia will have to say about that. Hopefully the release date and prices are revealed, as those are the biggest things that have yet to be leaked. There is some possibility that Nvidia will only use this event to announce and showcase the new GPUs and nothing more, though I think they will announce date and price too, at least for the 4090. As mentioned in the EVGA story, almost nobody knows what the prices will be, not even even the board partners who are making and selling the things. Predictions on 4090 prices are all over the place right now. Some think it will be $2000+, some think $1500 again, others think it might end up even cheaper. I think it will be stupidly expensive, especially if it really does perform 2x better than the 3090 and potentially over 50% better than the 4080. That's not a position other flagships have been in in the past, so Nvidia would have some justification for an even higher price tag. Hopefully we'll see soon, though! Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 06:36
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Paul MaudDib posted:maybe NVIDIA will do something to ease the pain here, but who knows, they may be getting sick of the "heads I win / tails you lose" crap from partners... partners inevitably over-order during these mining booms, make a bunch of profit, and then want refunds on any leftovers they couldn't sell. If partners aren't smoothing inventory for NVIDIA, there's not really a lot of other reasons for them to be getting a cut. LOL what Nvidia is the monopoly component supplier here. AIB partners have exactly nothing without them. If NV chooses to flex, the AIBs get squeezed. If anyone's playing "heads I win / tails you lose" here, it's Nvidia. They're the only party with the power to make it stick.
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Sep 20, 2022 06:37
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Zero VGS posted:Something I was kind of surprised by in the very niche arena of iGPU decoding: I started writing this huge thing, but it basically boils down to, "when is AMD going to acknowledge that fixed function silicon is going to beat the pants off of GPGPU silicon almost every time for their mobile parts, and actually put time and effort into VCN,", and I think RDNA3 might be the tipping point for that. We'll see. Intel has been reaping the benefits of their excellent dedicated H.264/H.265 silicon for years now. edit: not that Intel probably would have gotten to this point on their own. I still hold that Intel's Quick Sync is as good as it is because Apple kept pestering the poo poo out of them. SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 07:25
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6800 XT for $560 after $20 mail-in rebate: https://www.newegg.com/asrock-radeon-rx-6800-xt-rx6800xt-pgd-16go/p/N82E16814930049 That's a hell of a good deal compared to the 3070 and 3070 Ti. Also a 6650 XT for $275 after rebate and coupon code: https://www.newegg.com/msi-rx-6650-xt-mech-2x-8g-oc/p/N82E16814137737?Item=N82E16814137737&quicklink=true I wonder how much further these AMD GPU prices have left to fall. They've already come down in price so much.
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Sep 20, 2022 07:47
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Anyone use those vertical gpu brackets to prevent sagging? There's not enough slots in my new build for a horizontal bracket to fully attach to. I was hoping to get something non-conductive but all of them are made of aluminum.
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Sep 20, 2022 08:27
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Freakazoid_ posted:Anyone use those vertical gpu brackets to prevent sagging? There's not enough slots in my new build for a horizontal bracket to fully attach to. I was hoping to get something non-conductive but all of them are made of aluminum. I have one of these telescope tubes that screw out so you can rest your card on them. Although I can report that it works and sits stable, I can't tell whether it's conductive.
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Sep 20, 2022 08:33
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Freakazoid_ posted:Anyone use those vertical gpu brackets to prevent sagging? There's not enough slots in my new build for a horizontal bracket to fully attach to. I was hoping to get something non-conductive but all of them are made of aluminum.
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Sep 20, 2022 11:54
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYuRDB65Evw
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Sep 20, 2022 12:31
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Place your bets for the 4090 MSRP
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Sep 20, 2022 12:33
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Going $1600, they need some headroom in the $2k space for the Ti.
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Sep 20, 2022 12:35
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highest without going over? 1400
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Sep 20, 2022 12:35
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$1666 clearly
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Sep 20, 2022 12:40
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