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The administrators who rolled out a clear GDPR violation across the entire education system should be in prison, actually. An 8 year old cannot give informed consent to have their data harvested by a foreign tech company.
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Sep 28, 2022 14:20
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Whatever his intent was, he exposed malfeasance on a national scale, and that qualifies him as a hero.
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Sep 28, 2022 14:25
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Antigravitas posted:The administrators who rolled out a clear GDPR violation across the entire education system should be in prison, actually. This. Doing this without consulting or informing the parents is massively illegal. Blaming the whistleblower is ridiculous. Taking down the illegal situation until something workable had replaced it is probably an overreaction though since the chicken had already thoroughly fitted the coop in this case anyway.
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Sep 28, 2022 14:26
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Lets split the difference and just jail denmark.
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Sep 28, 2022 15:12
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Antigravitas posted:The administrators who rolled out a clear GDPR violation across the entire education system should be in prison, actually. Antigravitas posted:An 8 year old cannot give informed consent to have their data harvested by a foreign tech company. they can't, but their data is going to be harvested anyways after the school gets all the paperwork in order that it should of had in order in the first place, and in the mean time as the article points out, kids with disabilities were unable to continue their education due to their needed accessibility tools and all their coursework being locked out remotely because the school shut everything down immediately with no regard for the impact it would cause because catering to whiny parents was more important than making sure the educational facility was capable of running it's hosed that the 8 year old's data is being harvested, but it was already being harvested and is going to continue being harvested after google's paperwork is in order and the needed bribes are paid because once again, the pact society made with big tech is easy and free tech solutions for all of life's problems in exchange for everyone's data at all times, and big tech meant everyone's data. Platystemon posted:Whatever his intent was, he exposed malfeasance on a national scale, and that qualifies him as a hero. did you read the article? i get the vibe you didn't read the article because like, this guy isn't a hero, he's just a dumbass who accidentally pointed regulators in the correct direction because he doesn't understand what a cloud is or why students would need a network for storing their work and was mad about his child having access to technology he doesn't have 100% control over quote:When Graugaard started his campaign, he was not worried about Google products specifically. “My concern was when I put a child into public school, private personal data is not allowed to go public without my consent,” he says. “I'm just a dad. I didn't understand the seriousness of the case.” But he now finds Google’s involvement in Danish public schools sinister, and he wants the company out of the system. “Everything [children do] in school is in the cloud, via Workspace, which means everything they write in their machine is sent to Google,” he says. “We have given Google access to a whole generation.” dude's literally railing against the concept of storing your files elsewhere, he's no hero, he's just a dumbass boomer helicopter parent who's uneducated about technology and thus keeps his children uneducated about technology as a result. and blames technology for being bad when his bad parenting results in consequences for his children this guy sucks as much as the guy who failed to get the paperwork done right for using google as school infrastructure and the guy who shut the entire school network infrastructure down over the first guy being mad his helicopter parenting was slighted quote:His family was “proudly analog”; his three children don’t have their own smartphones.
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Sep 28, 2022 15:36
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No, the guy is a hero. gently caress Google and gently caress sending our kids' personal data to the US failstate. Putting smartphones into the hands of young kids just ensures they'll basically never be weaned off the teat of big data's algorithms. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 15:49 on Sep 28, 2022 |
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Sep 28, 2022 15:41
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I'm about to have a kid and the urge to go all butlerian on my house in a probably-futile attempt to prevent the internet from destroying their brain like it did mine gets stronger every day, so I cannot condemn this man
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Sep 28, 2022 16:18
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Yeah my kid is 2 and I worry about how to introduce her to that stuff. And handing out Chromebooks for grade school kids is a major data privacy issue that they cannot ignore.
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Sep 28, 2022 16:24
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The answer is always in the middle. Outright banning is going to gently caress up their ability to integrate with society and peers, and letting them go full internet brain is going to turn them in to some of these kids I see outside making weird rear end noises and Fortnite dancing in public.
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Sep 28, 2022 16:51
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Giving kids access to Youtube comments sections should be a criminal offense, and letting them post in those comments sections under their real names is a disaster waiting to happen. But on the other hand, this whole thing was the result of a single crusade from a parent who opposed the concept of cloud storage because Google might be able to see his kids' homework. quote:When Graugaard started his campaign, he was not worried about Google products specifically. “My concern was when I put a child into public school, private personal data is not allowed to go public without my consent,” he says. “I'm just a dad. I didn't understand the seriousness of the case.” But he now finds Google’s involvement in Danish public schools sinister, and he wants the company out of the system. “Everything [children do] in school is in the cloud, via Workspace, which means everything they write in their machine is sent to Google,” he says. “We have given Google access to a whole generation.” There's some truth to iamgoofball's complaints that kids need to learn how to do this stuff. No one needs to know how to use a printer these days, but so much of modern life is online that teaching kids to be digital hermits is doing them a great disservice. I know someone who was brought up with a really heavy emphasis on "never ever put any personal data online"...to the point where the first time they posted their resume on an online jobs site, they cried for an hour and then deleted their account. It's important to teach them to be careful with their personal data, but it's no good if they have a panic attack at the thought of their name showing up in a Google search either - especially if they're in a field where they want their professional accomplishments associated with their real name. It's important to distinguish between what's actually bad (kids going on social media totally unsupervised and without pseudonyms) and what doesn't really matter (uploading their math homework to Google Docs). "Data" is just a word; it's important to think about what it actually represents.
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Sep 28, 2022 16:55
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withoutclass posted:The answer is always in the middle. No. Not always.
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Sep 28, 2022 16:57
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Uploading homework (or any other data) to Google Drive or any other US-based cloud provider does matter. It gives the US government etc. the ability to gain full access to everything, which is the basis of the whole issue regarding sending GDPR data to the US and the cause for the Schrems and Schrems II rulings. The fact that people aren't more up in arms about this is extremely disturbing and signals that we've simply just given up on any kind of real privacy and handed over our entire lives to the tech giants.
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Sep 28, 2022 17:25
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KozmoNaut posted:No, the guy is a hero. gently caress Google and gently caress sending our kids' personal data to the US failstate. This fight is already over. It was lost years ago. Depriving your kids of access to technology and the accompanying skills required to survive in today's society isn't going to fix that, it's just going to hurt them. At this point any change would have to be top down, not bottom up.
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Sep 28, 2022 17:27
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Main Paineframe posted:It's important to distinguish between what's actually bad (kids going on social media totally unsupervised and without pseudonyms) and what doesn't really matter (uploading their math homework to Google Docs). "Data" is just a word; it's important to think about what it actually represents. Math homework is not important but would you necesarrily want all your essays and test results to be available to Google? When your are a kid everything you think and feel will be reflected in what you write and often you will write about your own experiences. There may not be a lot of filters so some of it can be deeply personal about you and your family and not something you want anyone else to know then or when you are older. I would personally prefer for Google to not build a profile on me based on things I thought and wrote when I was 6 when my parents were getting divorced or when I was 8 and was bullied at school or when I was 10 and I saw my friend being absed by his parents or when I was 12 and realized I was gay etc. To be clear that's all hypothetical examples that didn't happen but you get the point. So I think schools should stay clear of social media accounts and exclusively talk about it to educate and things the students say, do and write in school, whether online or not, should be protected and kept private. If parents will allow their children to put their whole lives in every minute detail online then that's on them. I don't know why you would think that's a good idea but hey good luck with it.
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Sep 28, 2022 17:34
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There Bias Two posted:This fight is already over. It was lost years ago. Depriving your kids of access to technology and the accompanying skills required to survive in today's society isn't going to fix that, it's just going to hurt them. At this point any change would have to be top down, not bottom up. That sounds like someone who's given up. I'm not arguing for cutting out all technology, I'm arguing for a responsible and considered approach to having tech in our lives, because obviously it's not just going away. That includes a good foundational understanding of privacy and why it's important, the absolute necessity of ad blocking and avoiding all IoT devices, as well as the importance of choosing privacy-respecting alternatives wherever and whenever possible, and reducing exposure to big tech's services as much as possible. And yes, it also includes not just giving your kids smartphones right away just because "everyone else has one". Teach your kids privacy, open source and a critical approach to all tech claims. Teach them hacking on Raspberry Pis and teach them to build things. For parents who don't have the skills themselves, our drat education system shouldn't just be throwing them right at Google and say "go hog wild!", they should also teach them in a responsible and critical way. KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 28, 2022 |
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Sep 28, 2022 17:36
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I'm glad one of Google's data hoovering projects got disrupted, and maybe this fiasco will teach someone in Denmark to take kids` data and privacy seriously.
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Sep 28, 2022 18:05
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There Bias Two posted:This fight is already over. It was lost years ago. Depriving your kids of access to technology and the accompanying skills required to survive in today's society isn't going to fix that, it's just going to hurt them. At this point any change would have to be top down, not bottom up. Would an example of a top-down change be the government of Denmark deciding that schools can't force their kids to use google products?
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Sep 28, 2022 18:15
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Main Paineframe posted:There's some truth to iamgoofball's complaints that kids need to learn how to do this stuff. No one needs to know how to use a printer these days, but so much of modern life is online that teaching kids to be digital hermits is doing them a great disservice. please teach people how to use printers. like maybe not all the noneuclidean brain shattering geometries of them but yes, printing is still sometimes necessary please teach the children how to press button get inky
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Sep 28, 2022 18:41
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KozmoNaut posted:That sounds like someone who's given up. Like, I fully agree with a lot of this, and I am absolutely going to teach my kid to hack around with Raspberry Pis. But also lol if you think that more than 0.001% of parents have the capability or motivation to replace their kids' smartphones and IoT devices with homebrew hackerware. Basically this: There Bias Two posted:At this point any change would have to be top down, not bottom up. VikingofRock posted:Would an example of a top-down change be the government of Denmark deciding that schools can't force their kids to use google products? Yes, exactly. This and intense data protection laws to govern what the tech giants can do with personal information.
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Sep 28, 2022 19:15
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Like, I fully agree with a lot of this, and I am absolutely going to teach my kid to hack around with Raspberry Pis. But also lol if you think that more than 0.001% of parents have the capability or motivation to replace their kids' smartphones and IoT devices with homebrew hackerware. And that's why privacy should be on the school curriculum.
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Sep 28, 2022 19:56
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KozmoNaut posted:And that's why privacy should be on the school curriculum. They're going to have a hard time fitting technology privacy and account security best practices on the school curriculum now that they've had all their technology deactivated for an audit and potentially slated for a removal because some paperwork didn't get filed and a helicopter parent had a 3 year long meltdown because his child living in his "proudly analog household" had access to Youtube for all of five minutes and then found out that cloud storage exists and how students use it to store their homework. If you think the outcome of this entire fiasco is going to be an increase in tech literacy for students, your logic on how children learn things, especially when their parents are teaching them bad, harmful, and/or counterproductive practices, is fundamentally flawed.
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Sep 28, 2022 20:35
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Iamgoofball posted:They're going to have a hard time fitting technology privacy and account security best practices on the school curriculum now that they've had all their technology deactivated for an audit and potentially slated for a removal because some paperwork didn't get filed and a helicopter parent had a 3 year long meltdown because his child living in his "proudly analog household" had access to Youtube for all of five minutes and then found out that cloud storage exists and how students use it to store their homework. Lol this is an absolutely ridiculous strawman. The dude wasn't angry about his kid watching five minutes of Youtube. He was angry that the school created a Youtube account for his kid that listed out the kid's full name, school and class, and then set him and his eight-year-old classmates loose on adult Youtube, after which a classmate stole his highly-identifiable account and used it for trolling the comments. This may not be illegal, but it was a gigantic cascade of gently caress-ups, and I'd be furious if this happened to my kid. And he was angry that they were putting his kid's homework on Google's servers, which are hosted outside the country (and have a ton of privacy concerns), without parental permission. As about half a dozen posters have said, this is straight-up illegal under GDPR. Google's efforts to harvest saleable information about schoolkids by pushing their products into schools are a huge problem, and pushing back against them is not Luddism, nor does it preclude giving kids safe access to computers.
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Sep 28, 2022 21:33
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I run the systems for our students without flagrantly violating GDPR somehow. 
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Sep 28, 2022 21:40
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The broken clock was thrown in a wood chipper because the owner thought it was haunted and for a microsecond pointed at the correct time. The correct time was good and worth knowing and the clock really did need fixing but the result is a fuckin mess and oh god why is the city garbage truck hauling away the clock we still need the clock argh.
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Sep 28, 2022 22:24
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Antigravitas posted:I run the systems for our students without flagrantly violating GDPR somehow. How do you handle right-of-erasure requests? You have to erase all personal information within 30 days of a request unless one of a bunch of exceptions apply. Are you set up to do that, or are you arguing that the school has an overriding legitimate interest to retain the records, so you don't have to erase it? e: also, you have to erase it from all backups Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Sep 28, 2022 |
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Sep 28, 2022 22:28
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Iamgoofball posted:now that they've had all their technology deactivated for an audit and potentially slated for a removal because some paperwork didn't get filed That's a really interesting way of saying "putting personally identifiable information on US cloud services is fundamentally in violation of the GDPR". Using Chromebooks in education was wrong and illegal from the beginning. Better to stop it now, sooner rather than later. Perhaps you made the choice to sell your proverbial soul to big tech and are ok with the consequences. Most of us would very much prefer not to do that. We would very much like to make privacy the default, rather than a rigged opt-out of tracking, which only disables the most obvious parts.
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Sep 28, 2022 22:30
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KozmoNaut posted:That's a really interesting way of saying "putting personally identifiable information on US cloud services is fundamentally in violation of the GDPR". no poo poo, nobody likes their every waking move being tracked by google, but unfortunately society would rather fund bombs and planes to drop bombs than fund education systems across the globe, so schools are forced to turn to private companies to secure the technology they need to educate children effectively in the modern era when a city will approve an APC for the 10 person police department, but tell the school they need to cut back on pencils and paper, it's loving ridiculous to paint the schools as the bad guys for taking the easy, cheap, and/or "free" option handed to them by companies like google to resolve their hurdles when a school's option is 1. run out of pencils because the pencil budget got scrapped so the chief of police can get solid gold truck nuts for his sports car cruiser 2. take the massive pile of free laptops, networking infrastructure, and incredibly easy to deploy technology option that google walked up and offered for a dirt cheap or "free" price what the gently caress option do you think they're gonna take? ask the students to just carve their math problems directly into the table because they ran out of actual pencils? no, they're gonna take the free loving laptops and accept the consequences of doing so because it means they can educate the kids at the standard expected of them by the parents if you want actual change to occur, get out there and start advocating for increased funding to schools and reduced funding to the military industrial complex and the pigs in blue, because if schools have money they'd be able to do the things you're asking for like rolling out their own network infrastructure and technology for kids to use that's entirely within the school districts
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Sep 28, 2022 23:04
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I would suggest that Denmark has a plethora of options somewhere in between and all around choice 1 and 2 that doesn't lead to them directly violating their own privacy laws
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Sep 28, 2022 23:25
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For a long time I resisted "buying in" or whatever you want to call it as it relates to putting yourself out there on the internet but, let's face it, we've reached the point where it's basically necessary if you expect to get a job, have a credit score, own a house or even buy a car. I'm not sure I'd say that overall it's improved out lives or our society but I've pretty much had no choice except to come around and accept it as a basic part of modern life. I still wait around, such as it is, when it comes to buying new shiny tech but the things that it does are basically essential to living unless you wanna gently caress off to the woods or something and try living off the land and going off the grid. But I'm not convinced we're better off for it. Nobody I know seems to have all the free time all these innovations promised us.
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Sep 29, 2022 00:50
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Iamgoofball posted:when a city will approve an APC for the 10 person police department, but tell the school they need to cut back on pencils and paper, it's loving ridiculous to paint the schools as the bad guys for taking the easy, cheap, and/or "free" option handed to them by companies like google to resolve their hurdles I would like to emphasize that Denmark is very much not the US. While our education system could certainly use more funding, it's nowhere near as dire as what most American school districts have to put up with. The Google option was chosen out of ignorance of the very real privacy issues it presents. That has now come back to bite people in the rear end, as it should.
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Sep 29, 2022 06:02
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Foxfire_ posted:Legit question because it seems like the hardest/most impractical part of GDPR to deal with: No different from someone getting exmatriculated. Lifecycle is largely automated, once someone leaves their accounts get deactivated, and after a while they get deleted. Ownerless data gets removed. There isn't really any other way to do it when you churn through thousands of students each year. Backups are a tricky part, but you don't have to go into immutable backups and mutate them. Accounts GUIDs aren't reused, so it's easy to figure out what data shouldn't be restored because it belonged to an ex-student. That data will then age out after a while and vanish.
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Sep 29, 2022 08:46
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I can tell you speak from experience and probably deeply resent never being taught to use the shift key
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Sep 29, 2022 15:42
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Iamgoofball posted:no poo poo, nobody likes their every waking move being tracked by google, but unfortunately society would rather fund bombs and planes to drop bombs than fund education systems across the globe, so schools are forced to turn to private companies to secure the technology they need to educate children effectively in the modern era , shouts iamgoofball angrily, puffing and red in the face as they wheel the goalposts from their original position on the field to a spot in the corner of parking lot 4D (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 29, 2022 19:14
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KozmoNaut posted:I would like to emphasize that Denmark is very much not the US. As opposed to? It's not like Apple or Microsoft have the best track record when it comes to privacy either. Granted it's been 7ish years since I've dealt with chromebook mdm, but iirc Google enterprise tended to have better restriction tools for education at the time compared to Apple or Microsoft - including things like forcing safe search and disabling accounts being able to access YouTube or forcing parental controls that disable livestreams and comments. I can only imagine the ability to do so across all platforms had only gotten better since. The only real answer in this scenario that has no privacy issues is a completely siloed, isolated system on fully locked down devices, which is a tremendous amount of administrative overhead and cost for both support staff who have to institute and maintain the system, and also the staff who have to plan lessons around it.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:13
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DeathSandwich posted:The only real answer in this scenario that has no privacy issues is a completely siloed, isolated system on fully locked down devices, which is a tremendous amount of administrative overhead and cost for both support staff who have to institute and maintain the system, and also the staff who have to plan lessons around it. So your take is that there are no degrees, no differences here. It's all or nothing so might as well just give it up to google? Because it's quite clear, from this very thread, that there are other options that are in fact GDPR compliant that aren't a locked down silo.
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Sep 30, 2022 15:32
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DeathSandwich posted:As opposed to? It's not like Apple or Microsoft have the best track record when it comes to privacy either. You don't have to pick between the tech giants, alternatives like this exist: https://nextcloud.com/blog/gdpr-compliant-collaboration-coming-to-750k-students-and-teachers-in-sweden/
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Sep 30, 2022 15:49
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Motronic posted:So your take is that there are no degrees, no differences here. It's all or nothing so might as well just give it up to google? Again, as opposed to what? What is the idealized solution in the scenario aside from "not Google" that can still do what the teachers need it to do? If there's a system already standardized in the country I'm more than willing to concede the point. But if the whole exercise is to just poopoo Google because data harvesting then you're losing me because that's essentially the business plan of like 80‰ of the internet. In my mind's eye, I'd much rather schools allow some education in internet literacy. It's a worthwhile skill to learn how to spot things like phishing and scams. So yeah, if you have school-managed Chromebooks where you have administrative control to lock in things like YouTube parental controls to keep students away from comments and livestreams and set restrictions. Someone saying they are an analog-only household seems deeply antiquated in my mind because these technologies are only going to become more ubiquitous, not less. It does kids a deep disservice to effectively go absinance-only as opposed to teaching them how to approach technology in a healthy way and protect themselves. Edit: KozmoNaut posted:You don't have to pick between the tech giants, alternatives like this exist: See, I can get on board with this. I come from an American education background so I'm already seeing the dollar signs flash through my head, but it could be completely feasible in EU countries that adequately fund their schools, let alone the IT staff that has to stand up and maintain more niche software. You still have the whole hardware angle to contend with though and I doubt Mr. Analog-only would be okay with this when it seems like his gripe was Chromebooks at large. Like, my experience with US school it was that there was 3 of us supporting 5 (granted, smallish) schools and we were always behind the clock. Google enterprise worked great because it hooked into active directory, when we got Chromebooks in we'd scan in new devices in and it would auto-configure and download appropriate payloads, we could restrict the store by app category and force safe mode in Google search and YouTube (which was something Apple couldn't do at the time, they were all or nothing) and we could stand up the entire incoming class in a couple hours (in a safe enough manner for American schools) and move on to the other fires we were constantly dealing with. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Sep 30, 2022 |
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Sep 30, 2022 15:50
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https://twitter.com/abcnews/status/1575677610192867328
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Sep 30, 2022 15:55
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KozmoNaut posted:While our education system could certainly use more funding, it's nowhere near as dire as what most American school districts have to put up with. Interestingly, the US spends more money on education per primary school student than Denmark.
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Sep 30, 2022 16:23
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I think the whole "privacy" ship loving sailed a long time ago. Looking forward to very soon having 3 or 4 step authentication becoming the new normal.
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Sep 30, 2022 16:24
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