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What are the common combo wins in cEDH? Thoracle (Breach or Pact/Consultation), Glint-Horn + Malcolm, and Krark + Storm-Kiln Artist + spells? E: From the comments it seems like Prof asked some difficult questions and Sheldon gave half-answers. E2: Guess there's also Niv + Curiosity and Heliod Ballista? Batterypowered7 fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Sep 28, 2022 |
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Sep 28, 2022 22:25
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Thassa's Oracle + (Demonic Consultation / Tainted Pact) Various Underworld Breach lines (Thoracle, Brain Freeze, etc) I'd say those are the two most common, then it's a plethora of commander centric combos. Stuff like looping extra turn spells, Kiki-Jiki pairs, World Gorger reanimation loops with any outlet for infinite mana, Dockside loops with mana outlets, Protean Hulk piles (a lot less common these days), Bomberman loops, etc. Edit: if you're curious about what types of decks show up, there's a sample at the deck list database. It's not all inclusive by any stretch but a really good starting point. Most of the decks should have some form of primer to help you figure out the game plans. https://cedh-decklist-database.com/
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Sep 28, 2022 23:48
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Batterypowered7 posted:What are the common combo wins in cEDH? Thoracle (Breach or Pact/Consultation), Glint-Horn + Malcolm, and Krark + Storm-Kiln Artist + spells? Fundamentally, you have some decks where the commander is a value generator/enabler, and the combo comes from cards in the 99, and you have some decks where the value and enablement comes from the 99, and the commander is a combo piece - it's only a rare few where the commander is both a combo piece and a value generator, and those decks are usually pretty (cEDH) format defining.
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Sep 28, 2022 23:51
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Jiro posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b811XpRWxlA I watched about half of it. I still don't care much for Sheldon, but I'm happy that he's in control of what gets banned instead of people who think any card that's cool or good should be banned because they refuse to interact. goodness posted:Its good so far, one of the first questions he asks is about the ban list and why Dockside Extortionist isn't banned. And tells Sheldon he can think of many cards that should be banned but aren't. For those who didn't want to watch, The bottom line with Dockside was "cards like Hullbreacher and Primetime got banned because they became so ubiquitous even at the most casual tables and warped every game around them, while dockside, while maybe problematic at high level tables, doesn't really exist at low level ones/it's not being exploited as heavily"
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Sep 29, 2022 12:34
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At my table, the only person who even runs Dockside is me, and even then I only run it in my janky Jund group hug treasures deck as an engine for the commander to give everyone else treasures. If Dockside makes 30 treasures, someone else at the table is also getting that many. So it's never warping the game, and I have yet to see it come up otherwise. The guy with goblin tribal doesn't even run it.
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Sep 29, 2022 13:00
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If Dockside got reprinted in a meaningful way so that it cost less than $50, it would probably get banned. That's pretty funny. There's a couple of questions I'd have liked prof to ask. One is how the process of unbanning works if ubiquity is such an important factor in a card getting banned. The other is in response to Sheldon talking about how he sees card design as the most important means of expressing the commander philosophy. It's basically the 3-mana rock question: if current commander card design is more in line with what Sheldon believes commander should be, why would players go along with that unless he's willing to ban the strictly better cards that already exist? I don't expect or want the RC to ban signets and talismans, I just want to hear what he thinks the steps are between "Print more 3-mana rocks" and "People actually play them"
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Sep 29, 2022 13:05
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Tarnop posted:If Dockside got reprinted in a meaningful way so that it cost less than $50, it would probably get banned. That's pretty funny. I think he's hoping players will buy into his philosophy rather than just play the most efficient cards. An honor system type of thing.
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Sep 29, 2022 13:33
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In response to Sheldon's Dockside statement, I would've liked Prof to ask "Do you believe that Dockside isn't as prevalent in lower level playgroups because of cost and availability, or because lower level playgroups don't recognize it's power?" If he believes it's cost and availability (it is), then how the hell are things like Gaea's Cradle still legal? I get that GC was a $50 niche vintage card when the format started but how the hell has it not been reevaluated since hitting 4 digits years ago. If he believes it's players not recognizing it's power/being less powerful in those metas then sure, but I think he's underestimating what "low level" commander looks like in the real world. Dockside was originally printed in a precon, even if a playgroup is "unaltered precons only" levels of casual that thing can still be running around. Sure, you have super jank like "creatures facing left tribal" but anyone well-versed enough in magic to create a gimmick deck of that tier knows enough to understand Dockside. Edit: Batterypowered7 posted:I think he's hoping players will buy into his philosophy rather than just play the most efficient cards. An honor system type of thing. It's 100% this, and this is a fine philosophy to have right up until the point that competitive events exist. It also raises the question of "why have a ban list at all then?" LanceKing2200 fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 13:42
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Batterypowered7 posted:I think he's hoping players will buy into his philosophy rather than just play the most efficient cards. An honor system type of thing. Yeah I didn't expect his answer to be good, I just wanted to hear him say it with a straight face LanceKing2200 posted:It's 100% this, and this is a fine philosophy to have right up until the point that competitive events exist. It also raises the question of "why have a ban list at all then?" It doesn't even need competitive events to exist. In my group we've raised the power level of our decks by lowering the cost of the ramp and interaction cards and the games are just more fun. Earlier active turns, fewer interminable board stalls. We played a game with unmodified precons again recently and it was just a grind. Our games end on turn 10, on average. This one took until turn 16 e: btw Prof did ask him that exact question. It's pretty early in the video. His answer was that you can rule zero around it so it's only a suggestion anyway Tarnop fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 13:45
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My guess is that the hope is that by printing more viable 3 Mana rocks and giving people the options that they will make a conscious choice toward including them rather than simply defaulting them into the deck in the usual Sol Ring-Arcane Signet-[Clan] Signet combo that forms the bedrock of most new decks (and someone pipes in at this point to go "but I don't run Sol Ring!" and if that's you please read: that's very nice, honey) -- if the goal is to promote diversity you have to provide it first, and things like Sol Ring and Arcane Signet are right in the sweet spot of being both just this side of too good but also too ubiquitous to be removed from the game even if literally no decks would be broken or even significantly hobbled by a blanket ban of either, and people would throw a fit. Probably the only take that is viable is this "if you build it, they will come" mentality where they'll simply make enough Mana rocks that it is better to choose a suite of them that suits your particular deck rather than default jamming every good rock in.
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Sep 29, 2022 13:54
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LanceKing2200 posted:In response to Sheldon's Dockside statement, I would've liked Prof to ask "Do you believe that Dockside isn't as prevalent in lower level playgroups because of cost and availability, or because lower level playgroups don't recognize it's power?" Please don't take away my cradle, I'll trade dockside for that any day lol
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Sep 29, 2022 13:59
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Tarnop posted:e: btw Prof did ask him that exact question. It's pretty early in the video. His answer was that you can rule zero around it so it's only a suggestion anyway Yeah, I saw that, but I mean it in more of a "then why CALL it a ban list?" way. If the RC's goal is to have a list of cards/card types that represent things players should avoid using (unless playgroup approved) then just make THAT list. It feels like that was the idea they used when it was first created (and just called it a "banlist" for convenience) with cards like Coalition Victory, Sway the Stars, Limited Resources, etc. Those aren't the most powerful cards of their kind, but they represent clear types of effects. Since then cards have been added and discussed like it's a more traditional "banlist" where things are removed from the format for very specific reasons (Flash, Iona, Golos, Hullbreacher), and now you have one list with multiple "types" of bans philosophically all next to each other, while ALSO claiming they can't do stuff like "Banned as commander, fine in 99" because it's too confusing.
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Sep 29, 2022 14:10
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Framboise posted:Please don't take away my cradle, I'll trade dockside for that any day lol You can use the cradle we have at home (Growing Rites).
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Sep 29, 2022 14:11
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My cradle at home IS cradle.
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Sep 29, 2022 14:29
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Alright, you can keep the Cradle, but you gotta bring back tucking commanders into the opponent's deck.
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Sep 29, 2022 14:36
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LanceKing2200 posted:Yeah, I saw that, but I mean it in more of a "then why CALL it a ban list?" way. If the RC's goal is to have a list of cards/card types that represent things players should avoid using (unless playgroup approved) then just make THAT list. Just as an aside, remember that Limited Resources is a must-ban because, although we treat the 4-person Pod as default, there's no such rule, as such, and EDH can (and is) played at much larger tables to the point where that card would basically completely lock out people at the back end of the turn order before they even got their first turn, especially if the person running it threw down a Gemstone Caverns.
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Sep 29, 2022 14:38
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After a lot of discussion, the group I play with has decided to allow proxies of cards you don't own so that we can try out cEDH every other week. I'm getting a couple of decks, but the ones I'm most excited to try out are Derevi Midrange and Food Chain First Sliver, both of which look really neat. I've really come to enjoy my basic Derevi deck, which saw its first win last night in a pretty surprising upset where I just barely got by using flicker and tap/untap shenanigans. Really credit goes to another player who refused to negotiate with the Athreos/Shadowborn Apostle deck player and died to stop their combo so that me and the Sliver Overlord player could then stop him. My Derevi deck is still pretty unoptimized, so I was surprised to see it win. But just plinking away with fliers got the job done like good old fashioned Magic. Also abusing Brago, King Eternal triggers with a Mulldrifter to draw into a Supreme Verdict + Heroic Intervention one-sided boardwipe helped a lot.
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Sep 29, 2022 15:04
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Cradle isn't that good because it requires having creatures on board and something that can be cast with green mana. Very limiting factors.
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Sep 29, 2022 17:08
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Cradle isn't that good because it requires having creatures on board and something that can be cast with green mana. Very limiting factors. Same with Serra's Sanctum when you think about it. E: There was a Play to Win where one dude was playing a sick Oona deck (and won) and the dude never shipped the list 
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Sep 29, 2022 17:10
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Batterypowered7 posted:Same with Serra's Sanctum when you think about it. The beautiful dream of Enchanted Evening + Serra's Sanctum
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Sep 29, 2022 17:21
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I literally play Sythis because I can use both Cradle and Sanctum to high potential lol
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Sep 29, 2022 17:22
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Toshimo posted:Just as an aside, remember that Limited Resources is a must-ban because, although we treat the 4-person Pod as default, there's no such rule, as such, and EDH can (and is) played at much larger tables to the point where that card would basically completely lock out people at the back end of the turn order before they even got their first turn, especially if the person running it threw down a Gemstone Caverns. That doesn't seem like that pressing of a need. Sure, potentially someone could have a handful of land, drop burgeoning and limited resources, and drop-down lands on turn 1, but 10 lands? Playing edh past four players gets stupid for any number of cards, rhystic study, smothering tithe, esper sentinel, and effects like that, which tend to be pretty ubiquitous. I feel like if you sign up for a 6 player game (and I've been in 7 player games), you know it's going to get stupid and you just accept it. Do you want to ban impending disaster too?
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Sep 29, 2022 17:22
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5 or more players should also require Planechase just to spice it up
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Sep 29, 2022 17:29
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I think that’s a decent argument for banning rhystic, as it gives outsized resources for one player. I don’t know that I want it banned, but it’s common enough that you might convince me it should go to free up deck slots. I also think it was kinda funny in the interview with Sheldon that the Hullbreacher ban wasn’t really on the table till it started to see lots of play outside powerful tables.
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Sep 29, 2022 17:32
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Dockside is interesting because it is usually less powerful at lower power tables. I've played games where it generates 1-2 treasures even on turn 4, because people are just running a couple talismans but no $$ artifact mana. I would like to see Oracle gone just because it is so hard to interact with
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Sep 29, 2022 17:54
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Framboise posted:I literally play Sythis because I can use both Cradle and Sanctum to high potential lol Do you have a deck list? I need ways to keep my Gaddock Teeg deck in top shape.
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Sep 29, 2022 17:57
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pseudanonymous posted:That doesn't seem like that pressing of a need. Sure, potentially someone could have a handful of land, drop burgeoning and limited resources, and drop-down lands on turn 1, but 10 lands? I don't think there's any expectation that Limited Resources would improve the format, if unbanned, and yes, they plan around 6+ player games existing and absolutely 1 dude starting off with 2 lands, everybody else going down to 1 and some people starting with 0 is as close to a perfect miserable unplayable game state as possible. Even "fairly played", it will wind up with most players stuck on 2 lands and in their personal "correct" way to play, 3-mana rocks would become unplayable. You know better than to make the equivalence between that and a cheaper, slower Geddon. I have a number of issues with the ban list, but I'm never going to lose sleep on Limited Resources.
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Sep 29, 2022 18:04
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Give us Recurring Nightmare back. C'mon
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Sep 29, 2022 18:06
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Framboise posted:My cradle at home IS cradle. Yeah, yeah, I got one too  
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Sep 29, 2022 18:20
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Heath posted:The beautiful dream of Enchanted Evening + Serra's Sanctum "I know, I'll just play Opalescence/Starfield of Nyx real quick and OH GOD, WHAT HAVE I DONE TO MYSELF?"
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Sep 29, 2022 18:25
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On the subject of why things aren't banned, I'm still baffled why Mox Ruby/Jet/Sapphire/Emerald/Pearl are banned but Mana Crypt isn't. Sol Ring should maybe be on the list too, but at least with Sol Ring, it's available; the cheapest Mana Crypt is $175 (I assume that the RC does not endorse proxies). Of all of these seven cards, I think Mana Crypt is probably the most powerful, especially in a 40-life format.
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Sep 29, 2022 20:10
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DontMockMySmock posted:On the subject of why things aren't banned, I'm still baffled why Mox Ruby/Jet/Sapphire/Emerald/Pearl are banned but Mana Crypt isn't. Sol Ring should maybe be on the list too, but at least with Sol Ring, it's available; the cheapest Mana Crypt is $175 (I assume that the RC does not endorse proxies). Of all of these seven cards, I think Mana Crypt is probably the most powerful, especially in a 40-life format. They 100000% don't endorse proxies. When the Walking Dead Secret Lair was announced, people were complaining on Sheldon's Facebook page because supply was limited and they wouldn't be banned in Commander. I asked if they'd just let those cards be proxied and received a very firm no. Part of me feels like it's to stay in Wizard's good graces, but part of me feels like it's because Sheldon can probably afford any cards he wants so he doesn't care if others can't afford them.
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Sep 29, 2022 20:34
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DontMockMySmock posted:On the subject of why things aren't banned, I'm still baffled why Mox Ruby/Jet/Sapphire/Emerald/Pearl are banned but Mana Crypt isn't. Sol Ring should maybe be on the list too, but at least with Sol Ring, it's available; the cheapest Mana Crypt is $175 (I assume that the RC does not endorse proxies). Of all of these seven cards, I think Mana Crypt is probably the most powerful, especially in a 40-life format. Holy poo poo I thought you were kidding. I paid like $60 for mine like 4-5 years ago.  (I'm still against banning either one of those so eh)
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Sep 29, 2022 20:59
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I brought my Drake posted:Do you have a deck list? I need ways to keep my Gaddock Teeg deck in top shape. Here's my list but don't take it as gospel, I'm not running a single mana rock in the deck lol. I just went in HARD on artifact hate to suit my meta. Check the cEDH database for more established lists.
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Sep 29, 2022 21:01
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Has anybody built any decks around those "Friends Forever" not partner commanders?
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Sep 29, 2022 21:02
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Toshimo posted:I don't think there's any expectation that Limited Resources would improve the format, if unbanned, and yes, they plan around 6+ player games existing and absolutely 1 dude starting off with 2 lands, everybody else going down to 1 and some people starting with 0 is as close to a perfect miserable unplayable game state as possible. Even "fairly played", it will wind up with most players stuck on 2 lands and in their personal "correct" way to play, 3-mana rocks would become unplayable. You know better than to make the equivalence between that and a cheaper, slower Geddon. I didn't mean it to sound like I saying if Limited Resources was banned thus, Impending Disaster must be too. To me it doesn't really matter if Resources is banned or not, the case where someone is able to quickly lock everyone out of the game by getting it turn 1 and flooding the board with 10 lands is so unlikely it will basically never come up, if it was unbanned it could be used a tool with a deck that can MLD and recur from the grave to create a soft lock. I don't think unbanning it would really change the format at all, but to me a turn 1 or two impending disaster is actually kind of a more likely scenario creating a really weird game state. I think there are also kinds of things that set up miserable game states for players that are allowed in EDH, so I don't see limited resources by themselves as being that problematic of a card. They seem fairly equivalent to me, like I get how limited resources is more of a lock, but it doesn't seem that much more so.
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Sep 29, 2022 21:14
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pseudanonymous posted:I didn't mean it to sound like I saying if Limited Resources was banned thus, Impending Disaster must be too. To me it doesn't really matter if Resources is banned or not, the case where someone is able to quickly lock everyone out of the game by getting it turn 1 and flooding the board with 10 lands is so unlikely it will basically never come up, if it was unbanned it could be used a tool with a deck that can MLD and recur from the grave to create a soft lock. You are missing that it doesn't have to be a perfect lock. You don't need to dump 10 lands. In a 6-player game, if I'm the LR player, I can gemstone->forest->2cmc land ramp, and turn 2 drop land+LR keeping counter magic open and I've basically locked everyone else out of the game until someone can force through one of the like 5 playable outs in UG to it. Are you in Mardu? Go grab a snack and wait for someone to save you. That's just bad gameplay and not at all similar to "And I slow cast an Armageddon". Honestly, I don't understand why you keep drawing the comparison.
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Sep 29, 2022 21:28
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Cradle isn't that good because it requires having creatures on board and something that can be cast with green mana. Very limiting factors. Go-Shintai of Life's Origin $5 Sanctum of All $2 Gaea's Cradle $1000 Serra's Sanctum $300 Enchantress's Presence $1 Sterling Grove $2 someone help me budget my shrines deck, my family is dying
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Sep 29, 2022 22:22
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Silhouette posted:Go-Shintai of Life's Origin $5 Now I just wanna build this. E: The version in this video looks different, though. Corbin plays Toxiril, Dovin's Veto, Stony Silence, and I'm pretty sure Replenish as well in the video but those aren't in the list linked. Batterypowered7 fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Sep 29, 2022 |
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Sep 29, 2022 22:26
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Silhouette posted:Go-Shintai of Life's Origin $5 Buy fewer copies of Candles of Leng.
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