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HackensackBackpack posted:If I remember right, the Scholasticate quests not only need you to complete ARR Hildibrand, but they're also given by an NPC that has another quest and I think it's one of the ones that gives you a free Thavnairian onion at the end. I'm just now looking at them and  the questline started in Heavensward and I didn't finish ARR Hildi until like 2 weeks ago.
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Oct 2, 2022 18:32
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HackensackBackpack posted:If I remember right, the Scholasticate quests not only need you to complete ARR Hildibrand, but they're also given by an NPC that has another quest and I think it's one of the ones that gives you a free Thavnairian onion at the end. I just started Scholasticate recently and I can confirm this. I was confused for a moment when I got there.
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Oct 2, 2022 18:41
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I just saw someone avoid the spinout mechanic in Alzadaal's Legacy on the final boss. It was the AST so they didn't just get rezzed and the tank was a DRK so PLD's cover wasn't in play. I tried asking them but they didn't answer, now I'm gonna have to experiment whenever I get the dungeon. Distance? Surecast? Consumable emote animation lock? (Realm reborn red) Edit: Looking at ACT they did get the spinning debuff but I for sure saw them walking around normally on the second spinout. Hommando fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 2, 2022 |
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Oct 2, 2022 19:43
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super sweet best pal posted:Tank's story is "The elements suck" and honestly should've been left to one of the roles that actually has a class that starts in Gridania. End fight seems like the best fit to its role. it's about the elementals coping with their own suffering, actually the issue is that the setting makes it difficult to communicate with the elementals so you barely get to hear from them and all the drama is sucked into doing a magic ritual to talk to them upon which the issue is resolved in five minutes because that was all that was needed The role quests have a running theme of reminding you that people who aren't focused in the story (often villains from previous expansions) have their own pain, and asks you to remember that even the worst person in the world is hurting, even as it clarifies that that doesn't necessarily mean you have to forgive them
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Oct 2, 2022 19:47
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I say clear cut the Shroud and replant it with trees that actively drive off elementals.
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Oct 2, 2022 20:03
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Chillgamesh posted:I wonder if Kan-e-Senna's bodyguard will ever take a name. C'mon guy, you can't beat yourself up forever Law of the Forest: never name something you might need to prey on later.
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Oct 2, 2022 20:25
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jalapeno_dude posted:It seemed like the Ishgard role quest missed a really obvious opportunity to involve the Scholasticate, but I assume the writers forgot those quests existed just like everyone else did. Theo can be seen sitting in the front row when the ecumenical council takes place. So they did remember, but com'on. That quest line is so hidden not many have done it.
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Oct 2, 2022 20:25
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Are there stats anywhere of how many people have completed a quest chain like that? I guess however many people have the achievement? I know some people do it for the “Of the Holy Body” title.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:24
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Valentin posted:i think it also doesn't help that ishgard's religion is, as presented, superficially catholic-y with the sole doctrines "kill dragons, uhhhhh something about the fury?" It is also not helped that in every questline dealing with the church, none of the actual bad actors face any consequence. Like, look at the Scholasticate questline: the only person who faces any actual consequences is the person most actively harmed by the Church - the shithead bully? the school administration? the people who instituted the "we are going to enslave promising orphans as living documents" policies? jack poo poo happens to them The Ishgardian church has never earned the benefit of the doubt.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:33
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From the tank quest I got the impression that the elemental was teetering on the edge of becoming a giga-blasphemy if we didn't take care of the problem and calm it down.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:36
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HackensackBackpack posted:Are there stats anywhere of how many people have completed a quest chain like that? I guess however many people have the achievement? Lalachievements says 49.8% (of non-private Lodestone character profiles) have that title. For comparison, 61.9% of profiles have the achievement for finishing the SB Hildy quests.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:37
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The point of half the role quests is acknowledging that you can't just kill everyone who was a bad guy, you have to have some sort of reunion, however painful, to move forward as a society and leave the tragedies in the past
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Oct 2, 2022 21:43
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I don't want to kill everyone who's a bad guy but I do want undeniable proof that we totally owned those lamers.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:48
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jalapeno_dude posted:Lalachievements says 49.8% (of non-private Lodestone character profiles) have that title. That's more than I expected, given how vocal the people annoyed for having to do Hildibrand for relic where.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:51
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Anyone who hates Hildy quests is not a good person.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:53
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I have never really understood the whole “These ancient, powerful, and utterly alien tree-gods who can live nowhere else but who have nevertheless allowed the Gridanians to live in their lands and harvest their woods, they do not exactly follow our moral and ethical codes, so the right thing to do is murder them and take their land” thing that so many people seem have going on.
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Oct 2, 2022 21:55
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Khizan posted:I have never really understood the whole “These ancient, powerful, and utterly alien tree-gods who can live nowhere else but who have nevertheless allowed the Gridanians to live in their lands and harvest their woods, they do not exactly follow our moral and ethical codes, so the right thing to do is murder them and take their land” thing that so many people seem have going on. Same people who think we need to forcibly overturn Doma's govt system and replace it with our own people and don't see how that's bad at all lol
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Oct 2, 2022 21:58
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Khizan posted:I have never really understood the whole “These ancient, powerful, and utterly alien tree-gods who can live nowhere else but who have nevertheless allowed the Gridanians to live in their lands and harvest their woods, they do not exactly follow our moral and ethical codes, so the right thing to do is murder them and take their land” thing that so many people seem have going on. That's what we've done with everything else.
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Oct 2, 2022 22:05
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Khizan posted:I have never really understood the whole “These ancient, powerful, and utterly alien tree-gods who can live nowhere else but who have nevertheless allowed the Gridanians to live in their lands and harvest their woods, they do not exactly follow our moral and ethical codes, so the right thing to do is murder them and take their land” thing that so many people seem have going on. What's so hard to understand about "These usurious landlords, who refuse to aid others based on ancient hurt that may or may not have even been perpetrated by the distant family of those being literally forced to beg aid, who have been proven to be incapable of even telling the difference between those trembling in fear of them, who have only recently and begrudgningly allowed man to live on the surface of their inviolable demesne, deserve nothing but our scorn at best"? Heavensward was literally about "Hey, these old hurts were terrible and we need to face them together if we are ever to move beyond cycles of vengeance and sorrow," the solution was literally "We need to punch the one guy who's hanging onto all this rancor," and everyone just looks over at Gridania, literally next door, and goes "But those are very fine unknowable eldritch entities full of rage, if you see any parallel here you're a filthy colonialist." e: HackensackBackpack posted:That's what we've done with everything else. This is also part of the issue, any MMO story has to do a lot of work to solve a problem without punching it. How can we smash the inherent bias of Ul'dah's economic system with our GCDs? How can we solve Limsa's lebensraum issues in a way that also integrates the kobolds and sahagin, using an 8-man? Dareon fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Oct 2, 2022 |
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Oct 2, 2022 22:11
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Khizan posted:I have never really understood the whole “These ancient, powerful, and utterly alien tree-gods who can live nowhere else but who have nevertheless allowed the Gridanians to live in their lands and harvest their woods, they do not exactly follow our moral and ethical codes, so the right thing to do is murder them and take their land” thing that so many people seem have going on. Because going by the game and world's own internal logic, it's absurdly likely they're a gestalt artificial deiform of some sort originally created by a people to serve some purpose that may not even be related to what they now do, they aren't meant to be part of the forest's natural order at all, their whims about who gets to be in the forest or not aren't some kind of master plan but are just that, whims of the moment, and when "~the greenwrath punishes people~" that's literally just the elementals eating them body and soul ala what we see voidsent do in 6.2. Literally everything about the Twelveswood Elementals now screams, as of Endwalker, that they are some kind of out-of-control primalform, and we've now seen examples of a forest in the exact same "place" in the world that seems to get by just fine without them. They exist to basically terrorize and eat whoever happens to wander into the wood, may well be preventing it from functioning quite like it should due to passive aether consumption that the natives don't fully process because they've just seen the Twelveswood operate like this for so long they assume it's a natural process, and we can observe that the place would likely be a happier place without their insane edicts which ultimately serve as justification for eating people and cowing remaining residents into submission. If anything it is getting supremely frustrating that the game just doesn't seem to want to address the obvious questions about them that have now arisen thanks to Shadowbringers and Endwalker. Especially when Amdapor foreshadowed the loving sin eaters and is hip-joined to a lot of the new voidsent stuff! Edit: correction SpaceDrake fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Oct 2, 2022 |
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Oct 2, 2022 22:12
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the fact that literally no one in the world suggests to you, the person uniquely equipped with destroying primals or similar, that the elementals fall under that umbrella implies to me that they are not.
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Oct 2, 2022 22:14
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if you want to use modern buzzwords you can just as easily describe the gridanians as colonizers as describe the elementals as landlords lol. it was their home before anybody else's
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Oct 2, 2022 22:18
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fortunately we're in a story about seeing things from multiple viewpoints and finding resolutions that work for almost everybody even if you have to kill the ones at the top, instead of a story about genocide as a good thing because some entire groups are just evil
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Oct 2, 2022 22:24
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SpaceDrake posted:Because going by the game and world's own internal logic, it's absurdly likely they're a gestalt artificial deiform of some sort originally created by a people to serve some purpose that may not even be related to what they now do, they aren't meant to be part of the forest's natural order at all, their whims about who gets to be in the forest or not aren't some kind of master plan but are just that, whims of the moment, and when "~the greenwrath punishes people~" that's literally just the elementals eating them body and soul ala what we see voidsent do in 6.2. Em, except elementals are, by all we know, souped up sprites/aetheric beings linked to the forest? Like the game shows elementals can both improve and deteriorate the forest based on their health. And if "but they're clearly manmade!" then every lifeform in the planet should be purged because they were created by the Ancients (ignoring that the planet itself could choose to give those creation souls since the Ancients had 0 involvement with that besides Phoenix and Queztal). And Heavensward and the Elementals are different cases I'd say, given that Ishgard was governed by a cabal descended from some guys who did war crimes and perpetuated a lie and whose current leader was planning to become God-Emperor and genocide dragons. Meanwhile the Elementals' problem is that they overreact to anything that could damage the forest, which does lead to extremely lovely stuff. But I'd say the solution to that would be give the Elementals a better interface for mutual understanding. or beating them up but like, in a roughing up way so they understand they can't curse people for making GBS threads under a tree. Well, except the case when they tried to recreate the Flood, that's a case for massively beating them up.
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Oct 2, 2022 22:24
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I'm gonna be real, they probably don't bother addressing it because not enough people care. The only time I ever hear anything about this elemental stuff is from this thread. I wouldn't have ever known about it otherwise.
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Oct 2, 2022 22:24
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cheetah7071 posted:fortunately we're in a story about seeing things from multiple viewpoints and finding resolutions that work for almost everybody even if you have to kill the ones at the top, instead of a story about genocide as a good thing because some entire groups are just evil 
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Oct 2, 2022 22:28
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The elementals are obviously not primals. In the Watsonian sense they aren't primals because we've had plenty of time for the setting's eikonnoisseurs to suggest that they might be primals, and they haven't, so they aren't. In the Doylist sense they aren't primals because the writers clearly regard them as representing nature itself in some sense and that's not compatible with them being primals and not knowing it. Meanwhile, the reason people dislike the elementals is because they're written as being both very demanding and very dumb. They have strict requirements for the people who are allowed to live on their lands, but they're unable to make discerning judgment calls about how those requirements ought to be carried out, so they're constantly either making huge, stupid overreactions or being talked down from making those overreactions by their Padjal minders. They want to protect the forest from invaders, but they can't tell whether someone is an invader, only whether someone is related, probably, to someone that invaded a hundred years ago. When the forest is actually being invaded, they have a panic attack and cannot meaningfully contribute to their own defense until the Warrior of Light and the Padjals talk them down. (I mean, having a panic attack in response to danger doesn't make you a bad person, but it does mean you shouldn't be in charge of a country or have magic nukes.)
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Oct 2, 2022 22:51
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I get the feeling Gridania is mostly fine and we're just hyper focused on the edge cases because we're thrust into them and get direct questline focus on them as the WoL. For 99.9% of people it is a city-state with heavy forests and you don't go into the deep woods, slash and burn, overhunt/poach or disobey the leaders of your country, which about lines up with the average persons reasonable expectations for living in or near enchanted woodlands. Those poor saps who get misjudged by the elements are the unlucky .1% but we've also likely drifted away from story focus after ARR and sometimes the devs have different plot line approaches they don't stick to, or that's my rough guess after PLD 50-60... or Macaluso posted:I'm gonna be real, they probably don't bother addressing it because not enough people care. The only time I ever hear anything about this elemental stuff is from this thread. I wouldn't have ever known about it otherwise. Maybe as a future plot point?
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Oct 2, 2022 23:01
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On one hand the Elementals are assholes on the other hand so is everyone else in Gridania, so the only real recourse is burning the place to the ground and building a department store.
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Oct 2, 2022 23:07
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Doomykins posted:Those poor saps who get misjudged by the elements are the unlucky .1% but we've also likely drifted away from story focus after ARR Err, not really? The Endwalker tank questline is literally about someone who is part of that "unlucky tenth of a percent". Ea-Sura was a dipshit kid who trusted an adult and literally got de-padjaled and exiled for it.
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Oct 2, 2022 23:10
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it's worth noting that in that story, the punishment for screwing up in a way that endangered the elementals wasn't death, it was, not getting to be a liaison to the elementals anymore
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Oct 2, 2022 23:12
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Yeah, he hosed up on the job and got fired.
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Oct 2, 2022 23:18
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Kyrosiris posted:Err, not really? The Endwalker tank questline is literally about someone who is part of that "unlucky tenth of a percent". Ea-Sura was a dipshit kid who trusted an adult and literally got de-padjaled and exiled for it. I'm not at EW yet but this thread discussion has clued me in to a return to Gridania, though I think that backs my point? You've got some ARR, CNJ/WHM, then nothing until EW? Seems to just be kind of a standard part of the setting we don't see often, suggesting the scale of involvement for the average Gridanian is pretty reasonable.
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Oct 2, 2022 23:20
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Another point about the Tank Role Quest is that as far as we know the dude had a good life after getting de-Padjal'd, found love and still lived in Grindania, albeit at the edges. Hell, going by the quest text her wife who died was given the medicine that could cure her, she was just unlucky/late enough it didn't work, it's not like the Elementals killed her.cheetah7071 posted:if you want to use modern buzzwords you can just as easily describe the gridanians as colonizers as describe the elementals as landlords lol. it was their home before anybody else's That said the comparison is apt, the elementals have no idea how to take care of the land with residents inside 
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Oct 2, 2022 23:34
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I think a lot of people would be happier if that imagined the Elementals as like... a giant dog or something. Not a particularly well trained or socialised dog, either. If it gets kicked, someone gets bitten - it doesn't really get what's going on. Whatever the situation though, they were there first.
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Oct 2, 2022 23:46
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Do we actually know the elementals where there first? I thought it was War of the Magic happens, pisses off the elementals, the elementals drive everyone out (making Gelmorra, the underground city), the Gelmorrans eventually make a deal with the elementals and get to move back in and live above ground again. But I don't think we know anything about what was happening there before the War of Magi right? Just that Amdapor was there, did white magic things and eventually the war with Mhach caused the above. But that means we also don't know when the elementals moved in, if it was before anyone else, just that they were capable of kicking everyone else out. For instance Allag would have definitely conquered that area, and I imagine on finding something like the elementals they would have invented some new and exciting war crimes for us to fight, but we haven't found any of that.... yet.
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Oct 3, 2022 00:00
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Macaluso posted:I'm gonna be real, they probably don't bother addressing it because not enough people care. The only time I ever hear anything about this elemental stuff is from this thread. I wouldn't have ever known about it otherwise. Agreed, it really doesn’t seem like they even consider it a plot point that needs to be addressed or solved. I’ve certainly never seen the “elementals are bloodsucking landlords that need to be destroyed or put in their place” discourse anywhere else but here, that’s for sure.
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Oct 3, 2022 00:11
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It does not seem impossible that the elementals are descended from some kind of Allag hell-science ultimately, but so is our cat husband, and I don't want to hear no takes about how we need to raze him over in order to satisfy some kind of Twitter-induced rage complex
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Oct 3, 2022 00:11
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i'm too sleepy to articulate what significance it might have, if any, but we do see (EW spoilers) tiny baby elementals in elpis. so they've been around a really long time.
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Oct 3, 2022 00:14
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Nessus posted:It does not seem impossible that the elementals are descended from some kind of Allag hell-science ultimately, but so is our cat husband, and I don't want to hear no takes about how we need to raze him over in order to satisfy some kind of Twitter-induced rage complex Yeah, I feel like the moral of a lot of the Allagan hell-science plot points is that, whatever horrible things the Allagans did, the consequences are here and we should only deal with the ones that cause or have the potential to cause ongoing suffering (like the Warring Triad and Bahamut, especially since Bahamut still has living worshippers held in great pain in stasis to fuel his existence, and I think the WT do too?). Even if we could prove the Elementals were an Allagan project, well, we have other sapient societies who started that way, and they have the right to exist.
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