|
mutata posted:Just do like they apparently do in Vermont where we're looking to go and skip the gutters entirely. My parents never had gutters in NC and it was fine, that house has been there for 45 years without issues from lacking gutters, but if you tell people that they'll act like it's about to fall over.
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 01:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:40 |
|
|
Docjowles posted:Have you all found any of those gutter protector systems to work? The mix of crap in there is pretty small/fine spruce needles, small-medium sticks, leaves. So the full gamut of sizes unfortunately. But maybe if we keep the big junk out, the small bits can just wash down the drain unimpeded? I've never used a gutter guard system, but have considered it since I have two pine trees, two medium maple trees, and one loving giant maple tree all within shedding distance of my house and garage. I procrastinate a bit when it comes to home maintenance and would pull out the ladder every 1-3 years and spend a few hours scooping slop out of the gutters with a garden trowel. This spring, I busted out a gas powered leaf blower and had everything done in 15 minutes even with up to two inches of composted crap caking the gutters. I can't imagine any gutter guard system or cleaning system could be easier or quicker. My roof has a shallow slope, so I can walk around on it easily enough. Might not be the ideal solution for steep roofs.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
My gutters are hard to reach and the guards seem to mostly do the job of keeping the clogs down to the level that I can clear most of them by whacking the downspout with a stick
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 01:44
|
|
|
Tiny Timbs posted:Google Maps won't take you to my place either, though it used to. There's a suggestion feature that goes straight into a digital trash bin at HQ.  I live on the pin, which is numbered and addressed as Street #1. Street #2 has a completely different name and numbering scheme. If you punch in my complete address to Google Maps turn-by-turn, it will send you down Street #2.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 03:10
|
|
|
Just get an easement for your guests.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 03:57
|
|
|
slurm posted:My parents never had gutters in NC and it was fine, that house has been there for 45 years without issues from lacking gutters, but if you tell people that they'll act like it's about to fall over. Since it's in NC my guess it is doesn't have a basement. This makes a rather large difference. Being on piers makes a big difference too. If it doesn't freeze hard that also makes a huge difference. Grading matters too. You can't just choose to rip off gutters in a void. Something has to take up that water and move it somewhere safe for the building. In the northeast that solution is very much typically going to be gutters because other solutions are various levels of inadequate or unfeasible. For example, a lot of places without gutters around here (which isn't many) have a french drain (that you can't see, of course) around the house. This stops working when it freezes/doesn't work for snow. These people almost universally have wet basements during freeze/thaw cycles.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 14:17
|
|
|
How does the entire state of Vermont manage then? Where they definitely have freezing temperatures, basements, and no gutters?
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:09
|
|
|
Good grading, like Motronic said? Maybe just a tradeoff they're willing to make to avoid snow piling up the gutters? Maybe the oldest houses just happen to be on good grading and the ones that didn't have good grading have since fallen down?
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:21
|
|
|
mutata posted:How does the entire state of Vermont manage then? Where they definitely have freezing temperatures, basements, and no gutters? Grading, wetter basements, or more sealed basements. Also fundamentally different sized "look outs"/overhangs on the roofs from building designed with gutters in mind. And different landscaping/poo poo in the drip line of the roofs. They're not just houses without gutters. They are houses designed to not have gutters. I mean, I literally covered this in my post so I'm not sure what the confusion is here.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:22
|
|
|
I don't know if it's related or not, but I've got no gutters on the sides of my house, and about a foot-wide concrete apron on both sides of the house and that appears to do a good enough job getting water away from the foundation. My 113 year old basement is bone dry, located in Minnesota so lots of freeze/thaw.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:49
|
|
|
FISHMANPET posted:I don't know if it's related or not, but I've got no gutters on the sides of my house, and about a foot-wide concrete apron on both sides of the house and that appears to do a good enough job getting water away from the foundation. My 113 year old basement is bone dry, located in Minnesota so lots of freeze/thaw. The concrete apron is absolutely related/the likely reason this is working for you. It's sufficient redirection to keep the water from your roof from laying against the foundation.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 16:51
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Grading, wetter basements, or more sealed basements. Also fundamentally different sized "look outs"/overhangs on the roofs from building designed with gutters in mind. And different landscaping/poo poo in the drip line of the roofs. It just seemed like you were saying "Don't be stupid, houses without gutters always have basements full of water" or something and yet I've seen tons of properties without gutters. Seemed dismissive. In my defense, you quite literally said that "other solutions are inadequate or unfeasible", so I don't think I was making some logical leap. What is a "wet basement"? Because to me it just sounds like... a basement full of moisture, which again these properties don't have. mutata fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Oct 4, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:04
|
|
|
mutata posted:It just seemed like you were saying "Don't be stupid, houses without gutters always have basements full of water" or something and yet I've seen tons of properties without gutters. Seemed dismissive. What is a "wet basement"? Because to me it just sounds like... a basement full of moisture, which again these properties don't have. A wet basement is a basement with at lest a high humidity condition that requires powered remediation like a constantly running fan or dehumidifier. Very often there is standing water on the floors and/or constantly running sump pumps to the point that basements will flood if a sump pump fails to run during any type of rain event or for days afterwards. Again, "these properties don't have" those issues because they are largely using other methodologies to mitigate the water laying against the foundation. This was covered in the post you initially responded to. It was not intended to be a treatise on all possible water mitigation schemes for homes without gutters. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:10
|
|
|
Motronic posted:A wet basement is a basement with at lest a high humidity condition that requires powered remediation like a constantly running fan or dehumidifier. Very often there is standing water on the floors and/or constantly running sump pumps to the point that basements will flood if a sump pump fails to run during any type of rain event or for days afterwards. The properties I've looked at absolutely don't have standing water or failing sump pumps in them. Hence my confusion with your broad sweeping statements. Motronic posted:Again, "these properties don't have" those issues because they are largely using other methodologies to mitigate the water laying against the foundation. This was covered in the post you initially responded to. It was not intended to be a treatise on all possible water mitigation schemes for homes without gutters. Ok, so other water mitigation methods ARE adequate and feasible. The opposite of what you said. Got it.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
mutata posted:Ok, so other water mitigation methods ARE adequate and feasible. The opposite of what you said. Got it. If that's the extent of your reading comprehension, sure. You got it buddy. Good job.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:21
|
|
|
The whole point of my question originally was that you appeared to be saying "only gutters work" while I have lived in and seen plenty of properties that are bone dry and don't have gutters. Maybe instead of getting weirdly snippy about reading comprehension you should write clearer posts? It's obvious just from replies on this page that your assessment is wrong.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:24
|
|
|
mutata posted:The whole point of my question originally was that you appeared to be saying "only gutters work" while I have lived in and seen plenty of properties that are bone dry and don't have gutters. Motronic posted:They're not just houses without gutters. They are houses designed to not have gutters. Motronic posted:You can't just choose to rip off gutters in a void. Something has to take up that water and move it somewhere safe for the building.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:38
|
|
|
Ok, fine. Got it. I'm an idiot and the original post was PERFECT. Sounds good. Nevermind. You win the post war.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:40
|
|
|
Get your minds out of the gutter. Edit: Re-reading everything I thought the Vermont question was interesting and it seemed like reasonable dialog that got aggro'd into oblivion. Be chill with your posting pals/enemies. H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Oct 4, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 17:40
|
|
|
reading is fundamental
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 18:10
|
|
|
*leaps into the gutter* It really is a case-by-case issue. In some cases, a lack of gutters will allow roof drainage to saturate the ground & penetrate the foundation. In northern climates, gutters can be more trouble than possible groundwater issues due to increased risk of ice damming, accumulated ice pulling down gutters and damaging fascia. Consequently, homes may be built with deeper eaves to keep roof drainage that much further away from the structure, and may not bother with soffits or fascia at all. I’m thinking of pulling down my gutters (except over doors) because my next-door neighbor did years ago & although we live in southwestern New Jersey, less than a mile from the Delaware River in a reclaimed swamp on sand, with tile & sump pumps, he’s had no increase in basement flooding. Also, the right side of my house abuts a concrete driveway with good drainage.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 18:49
|
|
|
What else affects the formation of ice dams? We are 2 for 2 having no issues on houses in Minnesota, but I definitely see places and know people who struggle with it throughout the winter. Our current house is in the woods, but the cleared out portion for the backyard means we have direct southern exposure and full sun year round. Is it more from heat coming up and melting snow from beneath? Our attic is pretty ideal for insulation and ventilation, which I assume helps quite a bit. I'll also say we're in the "gutters are necessary" camp at our current place. In addition to getting the Leaf Guards put on a few years ago, they also fixed a couple spots where tree branches hit the gutters and created low spots, installed bigger gutters for two sections of the roof (previous were undersized), and relocated a downspout that was draining to the highest spot surrounding the house where everything is graded toward the foundation (lol). Our basement still isn't ideal for humidity in the summer, but we have had zero water get through the CMU block foundation since getting the gutters addressed, which happened to some degree at least once a year before.
|
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 19:02
|
|
|
Blowjob Overtime posted:What else affects the formation of ice dams? We are 2 for 2 having no issues on houses in Minnesota, but I definitely see places and know people who struggle with it throughout the winter. The biggest acute ice damming problems can typically be traced back to what you mention - interior heat migrating into the roof structure resulting in freeze thaw over and over again for any moisture on the outside of the roof. That said, there are a dozen other ways to create issues primarily related to how the melt water gets off your roof. This is why a lot of ice dam problems that do not occur frequently are observed in roof valleys and gutter transitions. EDIT: it's also worth distinguishing between 'ice dams' which will form in almost any wet winter conditions along the edge of a roof, and 'ice dams that cause damage' which are largely preventable. Once everything is right regarding keeping heat away from the underside of the roof (eliminating the condition that leads to huge ice dams), you just need to waterproof the bottom couple feet of the roof where small ice dams will form due to weather conditions. This is done by using a waterproof underlayment under shingles for example. https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-135-ice-dams Tezer fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Oct 4, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 4, 2022 19:10
|
|
|
The main cause of ice dams is the thermal properties of the materials involved and a specific set of conditions: First: Sufficient snow or ice accumulation on the roof surface Next: Clear skies and bright sun with ambient temperatures below freezing Finally: Your low-pitch southern roof exposure. The freezing air temperatures keep your metal gutters cold; the bright sun will raise the temperature of the roofing material, causing the snow to melt and run down into the gutters, where it freezes on contact with the sub-freezing metal. On a clear sub-zero day, your roof deck can have a surface temperature of over 100F. Night falls. Everything freezes. The next day of bright sun, the roof thawing continues; by now, the downspout is blocked, and ice is now accumulating in your gutters. Repeat until the ice accumulates in mounds a few inches above the gutters, and truly awesome icicles appear. If you do not have ice & water shield installed, and are really lucky (luck being a relative thing here), your gutters will tear off due to the accumulated mass. If you are not: the thaw continues. Now, you have canals of standing water forming behind the ice dams, and the higher they are, and the shallower your roof pitch is, the higher the square footage of submerged shingles. What I look for are long stretches of high-pressure sub-freezing days after a couple days of wet lows. The claims will start coming in on days 2-4 of the nice, clear, sunny cold days. On flat roofs, the gutter drain boxes will freeze, so we'd get a lot of second-floor bedrooms with nasty leaks at the corner. Your best quick response is to cast rock salt on the roof and try to get a thaw going. RV antifreeze in the downspout/drain may help. Long-term solutions: ice & water shield; heat tape; eliminate the gutters. PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Oct 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 00:02
|
|
|
PainterofCrap posted:The freezing air temperatures keep your metal gutters cold; the bright sun will raise the temperature of the roofing material, causing the snow to melt and run down into the gutters, where it freezes on contact with the sub-freezing metal. On a clear sub-zero day, your roof deck can have a surface temperature of over 100F. Would it make much of a difference if the roof was painted white, or is most of the heat coming from the climate control inside the house?
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 00:38
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Would it make much of a difference if the roof was painted white, or is most of the heat coming from the climate control inside the house? color does cause a significant change in top of roof roof temperature (can be 30 C in summer) but not sure about how much it'd do about ice dams
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 01:00
|
|
|
drat I was wondering why my house (MA) doesnt have gutters. The inspector said it was fine but I was having some serious doubts (I'm from the Midwest where gutters are common). Thanks for the discussion, learned something new.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 01:03
|
|
|
I went ahead and installed the pergo laminate flooring on the platform of my bay window and it has done an excellent job of holding up against the scratches of my husky and German Shepard. I used a flush trim bit in a router on the front edge to get it parallel with the drywall and picked up some window casing for the front side and 3/4" quarter-round trim to go along the three seams along the back. So far, so good. Wellll...not so good. Two of the walls under the windows are nice and straight. The third one is bent causing about a 1/4" gap between the trim and the wall. If it was uniform curved bend in the wall, I'm sure I could flex the trim a bit to fit, but the bend is all at one end. The green line below is a bit exaggerated, but it shows that the piece of drywall installed vertically along the right side of the right window was installed cockeyed compared to the drywall underneath the window. Right now, the only solutions I can think of are to cut that trim into two pieces (which I don't like) or build a steam bender and bend the trim to fit. I think the steam bender would give the cleanest looking result, but if there is a much easier way that I am overlooking, I'm all ears.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 01:40
|
|
|
That stuff is pretty flexible, couldn't you just fasten it to the studs along the wall? Maybe use trim screws to draw it tight to the wall Otherwise if you have the means, some "kerf cuts" that go about 1/2 way through the trim will kinda open the trim up to bending more. You can do it with a hand saw, i dont think it would take more than 4-5 well placed cuts this is an extreme example but hopefully gets the point across:  
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 01:51
|
|
|
Yo this is sweet! I wonder how well something like that would hold up? Gotta imagine all the little cuts make water more of a problem.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 01:55
|
|
|
TooMuchAbstraction posted:Would it make much of a difference if the roof was painted white, or is most of the heat coming from the climate control inside the house? No. Not enough to break the cycle, although dark roofs heat faster & stay hotter longer. And it's all hot water that used to be snow. There really isn't enough thermal loss from the void underneath the roof to create the conditions necessary for damaging ice damming. SkunkDuster posted:I went ahead and installed the pergo laminate flooring on the platform of my bay window and it has done an excellent job of holding up against the scratches of my husky and German Shepard. I used a flush trim bit in a router on the front edge to get it parallel with the drywall and picked up some window casing for the front side and 3/4" quarter-round trim to go along the three seams along the back. So far, so good. Push the trim against the wall & use a trim nailer to pop a few in from an angle above the work to hold it. Use a shim to push the trim against the wall rather than any part of your anatomy, since powered trim nails looooove to curl back away from the work and into flesh. PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Oct 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:05
|
|
|
PainterofCrap posted:No. Not enough to break the cycle, although dark roofs heat faster & stay hotter longer. The angle of the bend is too steep for that. I can push it against the wall (with considerable effort) for about 2/3rds then length from the left, but when it comes to the last third on the right, that trim will snap before it conforms to the bend. I'm pushing on it as hard as I can and there is still a 1/4" gap there. Cutting kerfs might work, but I would have to hide the kerf lines and I'm concerned that the unkerfed top edge would snap at that bed no matter how close I cut the kerfs on the backside. Skunkduster fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Oct 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:17
|
|
|
PainterofCrap posted:Use a shim to push the trim against the wall rather than any part of your anatomy, since powered trim nails looooove to curl back away from the work and into flesh. This is pro advice. You don't want to learn this on your own the hard way. E: SkunkDuster posted:The angle of the bend is too steep for that. I can push it against the wall (with considerable effort) for about 2/3rds then length from the left, but when it comes to the last third on the right, that trim will snap before it conforms to the bend. I'm pushing on it as hard as I can and there is still a 1/4" gap there. Plane the back off the sides to make it fit better, use caulk for the rest. Motronic fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:18
|
|
|
Motronic posted:This is pro advice. You don't want to learn this on your own the hard way. I have no doubt that is great advice, but I also have no powered trim nailer. I was just planning on drilling pilot holes and pounding in the trim nails like a Neanderthal. Skunkduster fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Oct 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:21
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Plane the back off to make it fit better, use caulk for the rest. I considered that, as well, but being that it is 1/4 round, any material that I plane off the back will reduce the height of the trim. I'd need to plane quite a bit off to make that bend and the result would probably be the trim coming to a point before it even reached the end. It is hard to show through pictures, but there is a significant bend over the last 4-6" of that wall on the right side.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:24
|
|
|
SkunkDuster posted:I considered that, as well, but being that it is 1/4 round, any material that I plane off the back will reduce the height of the trim. I'd need to plane quite a bit off to make that bed and the result would probably be the trim coming to a point before it even reached the end. It is hard to show through pictures, but there is a significant bend over the last 4-6" of that wall on the right side. Yeah, that's not what it looked like in the pictures so if you're saying its that much worse it's hard to figure out what to suggest. Can you figure out how far you can run it by bending and then cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, install the long piece and then keep taking slices out of the angle on the remainder to get it turned close enough to continue/bend to fit? This is similar to how you run corners when your corners are 100+ years old and not really 90 degrees.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:27
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Yeah, that's not what it looked like in the pictures so if you're saying its that much worse it's hard to figure out what to suggest. Can you figure out how far you can run it by bending and then cut the trim at a 45 degree angle, install the long piece and then keep taking slices out of the angle on the remainder to get it turned close enough to continue/bend to fit? This is similar to how you run corners when your corners are 100+ years old and not really 90 degrees. That would probably be the way to go if I were to use two pieces of trim, but I just ran a straight-edge along the wall and it found is also bent at the left end as well (but not as much as the right side). I'm thinking at this point, my options are to use three pieces of trim in the method you suggested, replace the wall, or steam bend it. I was just hoping there was that "one easy trick carpenters don't want you to know", but, building a steam bender sounds like a fun and interesting project.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:39
|
|
|
SkunkDuster posted:building a steam bender sounds like a fun and interesting project. This is not the rabbit hole you want to be going down. There are far easier ways to accomplish this. The "one easy trick carpenters don't want you to know" is making relief cuts/kerf cuts 1/2 to 2/3 the depth of the trim piece. But with what you're using it's going to lead to needing a lot of caulk touch up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:43
|
|
|
SkunkDuster posted:but, building a steam bender sounds like a fun and interesting project. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 02:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 11:40 |
|
|
I tried to build a steam bending jig and never got it to work acceptably. I'm not entirely clear what I was doing wrong, but apparently kiln-dried wood at least does not steam bend well. And almost all wood you're likely to encounter is these days is kiln-dried.
|
|
#
?
Oct 5, 2022 04:07
|
|