Apsyrtes posted:Engines play top chess, undisputedly. First of all, engines do not play top chess. They play chess so far beyond top chess it is in another classification: top engine chess. Second, the chess.com report actually does include them consulting top players for their analysis. Stop shotgunning your bullshit every just to see what sticks. Publicity as a motive, regardless of if this is true or not, does not discredit the work they did.
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Oct 5, 2022 13:31
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stratdax posted:If Chess is like any other sport, the entire organization would love it if Hans is cheating. They can provide a huge report & mountains of evidence on Hans specifically, but very intentionally not look further than that because it would uncover just how many cheaters there are. You always need a fall guy to make it look like they're successfully protecting the sanctity of the game from all cheaters. That's exactly what Chess.com is doing. They're putting focus on Hans and dumb cheaters to distract from the fact that they can't catch anyone using anal beads either
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Oct 5, 2022 13:55
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Thats sort of what makes me feel so sour about all this - lots of people cheat all the time. Only Hans is getting singled out because He beat Magnus and talked poo poo about it. Other sports, when there is a cheating accusation, allow the accused representation in front of some sort of plausibly neutral arbitrator. Chess.com is not plausibly neutral!
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Oct 5, 2022 14:10
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Niemann getting pilloried while everyone else skates because he's a massive goony goon just makes this funnier.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:15
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Hand Knit posted:Niemann getting pilloried while everyone else skates because he's a massive goony goon just makes this funnier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQYBZgsjnEI
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Oct 5, 2022 14:16
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wedgie deliverer posted:Thats sort of what makes me feel so sour about all this - lots of people cheat all the time. Only Hans is getting singled out because He beat Magnus and talked poo poo about it. In fairness, they mostly addressed the stuff that happened on their platform, about which Niemann clearly lied/misrepresented a lot. Also he was given a lot of chances by them previously. Still, I wonder what FIDE will say about OTB.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:17
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I love how he himself recorded himself being, well, himself.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:18
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dex_sda posted:Still, I wonder what FIDE will say about OTB. Almost certainly nothing, because both Ken Regan and now Chess.com's team have said there's nothing statistically evident about his play OTB.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:21
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I think the fact that FIDE let a private website drive the clown car for this long without anything more than a lawyerly statement about Magnus means they were caught like a deer in the headlights. The most they've done after the arbiter sent them some .xlsx of the game results is an ongoing effort to assemble some panel of experts to present some vague slides in a few weeks that throw anyone in the org under the bus that is even peripherally connected to what could look like an anti-cheating group.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:39
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wedgie deliverer posted:Thats sort of what makes me feel so sour about all this - lots of people cheat all the time. Only Hans is getting singled out because He beat Magnus and talked poo poo about it. No. It's in the report. Hans is getting singled out because he decided to go public with this. In all other cases, including the start of Hans's investigation, it was done privately, and with chance for redemption. Hans chose for it to be this way. wedgie deliverer posted:Other sports, when there is a cheating accusation, allow the accused representation in front of some sort of plausibly neutral arbitrator. Chess.com is not plausibly neutral! We're not even at that point, we are literally at the equivalent of the MLB revealing their investigation results of cheating on their platform. What chess.com is doing is hilariously in-line with what other major league sports do, probably because we know they asked them for consultation, and they had to go through all this formality and rigor because of how much this snowballed out of control.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:48
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tractor fanatic posted:Almost certainly nothing, because both Ken Regan and now Chess.com's team have said there's nothing statistically evident about his play OTB. Kinda, but not quite. Chess.com say they are not experts at analyzing OTB play, but they applied their methods to OTB games anyways, and highlighted six tournaments that were recommended for further analysis.
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Oct 5, 2022 14:55
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AnacondaHL posted:No. Really not trying to be facetious - but how is it Hans decision to “go public” when it was Magnus and others who accused him? (yes I know magnus’ formal accusation didn’t come out until recently) Again not super clear on some other details, and comparing this to other sports seems like a flawed analogy, because I don’t know if other sports have an entity like chess.com in relation to their governing structure. If I missed a detail in this story about how FIDE and chess.com are working together on this, my bad. FIDE is the ostensibly governing body, and I know they are doing their own investigation. Normally I would expect the findings to be held until the third party report is ready so not to muddy the waters. The chess.com report feels like a 1 sided press release that happens to support their business partner. I don’t think Hans is clean, I just doubt that chess.com or Magnus are either, which makes this all seem like a weird political flex as a chess newcomer. I guess I just spend a lot of time reading/analyzing reports for work and this sort of public spat would have much more raised eyebrows for me professionally.
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Oct 5, 2022 15:12
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He literally made a public denial in an interview, in contradiction with his correspondence with the site. Specifically about having never cheated in money tournaments.
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Oct 5, 2022 15:28
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wedgie deliverer posted:Again not super clear on some other details, and comparing this to other sports seems like a flawed analogy, because I don’t know if other sports have an entity like chess.com in relation to their governing structure. If I missed a detail in this story about how FIDE and chess.com are working together on this, my bad. chess.com applied their regular methods to OTB games, but they were unable to get anything conclusive, partly since they don't have some data they are privy to on their platform (tabbing away, move times). They did, however, recommend six tournaments for FIDE to take a closer look with their methods. That reads as legalese for "there's a bit of fishiness but we are not making actionable judgments on this because we don't have enough statistical significance for definitiveness so we could be wrong;" the idea that there's absolutely nothing fishy at all seems to run counter to what the report says. Surely if there was nothing pinged by their system they wouldn't be recommending that to FIDE - who are actually in charge of the OTB world. I also get a feeling with the OTB speculation that really feels a bit out of place in the report they are trying to force FIDE's hand to take responsibility - FIDE is a pretty lovely and even corrupt organisation. This does make the whole thing look slightly weird and I have to agree with you there, but I think the reason is less sinister "help baby Magnus with his saltiness" and more "FIDE needs to nut up on this because it's hurting everyone." The idea that this report clears him after 2020 is also a bit silly imo; he just didn't get pinged by the system since. For all we know, he might have just figured out to cheat more subtly (say, with just an eval bar). dex_sda fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 15:35
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dex_sda posted:chess.com applied their regular methods to OTB games, but they were unable to get anything conclusive, partly since they don't have some data they are privy to on their platform (tabbing away, move times). *ducks head under table for 20 seconds during OTB game* sorry I was just alt tabbing to check my email
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Oct 5, 2022 15:46
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totalnewbie posted:*ducks head under table for 20 seconds during OTB game* sorry I was just alt tabbing to check my email in retrospect, we should have seen the red flags - i mean the ones the accomplice used for semaphore signalling in the crowd
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Oct 5, 2022 15:47
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wedgie deliverer posted:Really not trying to be facetious - but how is it Hans decision to “go public” when it was Magnus and others who accused him? (yes I know magnus’ formal accusation didn’t come out until recently) Titled Tuesday is a money tournament hosted by chess.com and played online using the chess.com service. FIDE doesn't sanction Titled Tuesday, and you don't change your FIDE rating by participating. Magnus didn't comment or resign or withdraw from a titled tuesday. Chess.com is only reporting than Hans cheated in titled tuesday and in other games on the chess.com platform. Chess.com was brought up by hans in an interview as having banned him, but was not otherwise involved before then. Hans lied about the nature of those bans and the extent of his cheating on the platform. Chess.com then corrected that record.
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Oct 5, 2022 15:55
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totalnewbie posted:*ducks head under table for 20 seconds during OTB game* sorry I was just alt tabbing to check my email We once caught someone in another room in the building on a desktop computer. They claimed they were only checking their email, which they had to do because their mom was in the hospital and they couldn't afford to miss an urgent communication.
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Oct 5, 2022 15:55
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totalnewbie posted:*ducks head under table for 20 seconds during OTB game* sorry I was just alt tabbing to check my email Yeah I don't think the "chess.com has less information OTB than online" is meaningful. The only potentially useful information is move times. If you imagine Hans used his OTB cheating method on chess.com, then they're saying they can't detect it either.
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Oct 5, 2022 15:59
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dex_sda posted:in retrospect, we should have seen the red flags - i mean the ones the accomplice used for semaphore signalling in the crowd lol
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Oct 5, 2022 16:00
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They have access to the 'blur' data which is whether his better moves correspond to him leaving the browser window (they did).
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Oct 5, 2022 16:01
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Ravel posted:They have access to the 'blur' data which is whether his better moves correspond to him leaving the browser window (they did). which actually is an extremely powerful metric and it makes complete sense that without it their cheating detection is way less robust - whether because the cheating happens OTB or the player is wise to not leaving the browser window with his cheating method.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:07
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why don’t they just check otb if someone’s best moves usually come after they’re back from the toilet or sth
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Oct 5, 2022 16:08
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It'll be impossible to say if he ever cheated OTB unless he had an accomplice who rats him out. Doesn't really matter, he admitted to cheating privately, lied about it publicly and should eat a couple year ban from tournaments as punishment. Hopefully this results in chess taking cheating seriously as the GMs currently don't seem to think fide does.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:09
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dex_sda posted:FIDE is a pretty lovely and even corrupt organisation. This does make the whole thing look slightly weird and I have to agree with you there, but I think the reason is less sinister "help baby Magnus with his saltiness" and more "FIDE needs to nut up on this because it's hurting everyone." I see your points here. But if this was a serious movement against cheating in chess, why stop at Hans when chess.com and other GMs have all publicly acknowledged that they have a more extensive database of cheaters and confessions? If it was about cheating, release the list. If that is their goal then yes, it would be noble. But unless that full accounting of cleaning house is to be undertaken, it seems to be about Hans. I assume FIDE, like every international sports governing body, is corrupt. Chess.com however does not appear to me to be doing anything different or better, just protecting a different set of interests.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:20
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wedgie deliverer posted:I see your points here. But if this was a serious movement against cheating in chess, why stop at Hans when chess.com and other GMs have all publicly acknowledged that they have a more extensive database of cheaters and confessions? If it was about cheating, release the list. If that is their goal then yes, it would be noble. But unless that full accounting of cleaning house is to be undertaken, it seems to be about Hans. First of all, Magnus apparently was one of the few GMs who didn't see the list. Nevertheless he had his suspicions, which is kinda crazy - I assume the GMs just talk between themselves but still. So if we look at his perspective for starting this, he just seems to want cheaters to be taken to accord. Whether Hans cheated OTB in the game or just got (un)lucky with the prep, it convinced Magnus he was cheating and we're here with Magnus using his clout to strongarm FIDE into action. And I don't blame him, if you know someone's a cheater you will play poorly even if they aren't cheating at the moment. For chess.com's side, while I do think the decision not to release other name is regrettable I think they handled every previous GM cheater the same way - allow them to privately admit wrongdoing and then let them back on. I think that is an extremely stupid and bad attitude, but that might mean they want to preserve the anonymity of those players from the general public. Niemann just happened to lie publically about it, that's why it appears they're ganging up on him. Again, it's a really weird policy - least of all because it allows cheaters to refine their cheating methods and it is what I personally believe happened with Hans - and they should change it, but certainly the OTB cheating accusation is the most pressing thing right now and I can hardly blame them for focusing on it. It definitely is about protecting their interest, for the record - but I don't think it's the interest people are suggesting of helping out Magnus, but more because this is extremely damaging to chess as a whole but to online chess in particular, which naturally hits right in their business. dex_sda fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 16:24
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fart simpson posted:why don’t they just check otb if someone’s best moves usually come after they’re back from the toilet or sth During the Ding-Nepomniachtchi match, if players need to take a poo poo when they stand up from the board they will be blindfolded, handcuffed, and led to the toilet by a support staff of toilet helpers. The toilet helps will undress the players, seat them, wipe their asses (as necessary), redress them, and return them to the board.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:25
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Hand Knit posted:During the Ding-Nepomniachtchi match, if players need to take a poo poo when they stand up from the board they will be blindfolded, handcuffed, and led to the toilet by a support staff of toilet helpers. The toilet helps will undress the players, seat them, wipe their asses (as necessary), redress them, and return them to the board. are they already accepting applications?
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Oct 5, 2022 16:30
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fart simpson posted:why don’t they just check otb if someone’s best moves usually come after they’re back from the toilet or sth If you have a tiny thumper in your shoe you don’t need to go anywhere
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Oct 5, 2022 16:31
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dex_sda posted:First of all, Magnus apparently was one of the few GMs who didn't see the list. [i]Nevertheless he had his suspicions, which is kinda crazy - I assume the GMs just talk between themselves but still. So if we look at his perspective for starting this, he just seems to want cheaters to be taken to accord. Whether Hans cheated OTB in the game or just got (un)lucky with the prep, it convinced Magnus he was cheating and we're here with Magnus using his clout to strongarm FIDE into action. And I don't blame him, if you know someone's a cheater you will play poorly even if they aren't cheating at the moment. Yea, I guess I just didn't realize how much of a mess chess was until now. I was just enjoying the new hobby and boom. The whole 'private admission' system seems very bad, and this result is the mess. If I had to be a real tinfoil hat guy (any more than I already am) it seems that Chess.com wants to keep as many titled players on their site to market themselves as having the best and brightest players and therefore the best place to play chess in the world. So when the players gently caress up, rather than have a robust cheating policy that banned those titled players (a policy which would run counter to their business strategy) they went with this weird confession system. Now that system is blowing up in their face because of lots of complicated reasons that I barely understand, if at all.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:33
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wedgie deliverer posted:If I had to be a real tinfoil hat guy (any more than I already am) it seems that Chess.com wants to keep as many titled players on their site to market themselves as having the best and brightest players and therefore the best place to play chess in the world. So when the players gently caress up, rather than have a robust cheating policy that banned those titled players (a policy which would run counter to their business strategy) they went with this weird confession system. Now that system is blowing up in their face because of lots of complicated reasons that I barely understand, if at all. I would agree with this, yeah - except that the system was quite rigged to blow once a real scandal happened. This is why they're scrambling to look like the reasonable party, and the report is pretty good on that - but it (quite intentionally) glosses over their own mismanagement of the cheating problem.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:35
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Hand Knit posted:During the Ding-Nepomniachtchi match, if players need to take a poo poo when they stand up from the board they will be blindfolded, handcuffed, and led to the toilet by a support staff of toilet helpers. The toilet helps will undress the players, seat them, wipe their asses (as necessary), redress them, and return them to the board. Fine! I don't know why we even have a bottle.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:41
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lol that chess.com released chat logs like this is your run of the mill twitch drama
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Oct 5, 2022 16:43
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qsvui posted:lol that chess.com released chat logs like this is your run of the mill twitch drama Well,
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Oct 5, 2022 16:46
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Niemann was the one who brought up his chess dot com ban in his Sinquefeld interview, after they had privately banned him (again). They then responded saying that his summary in that interview was not accurate and they sent him evidence privately again. Niemann did not address this. After much public activity about their involvement, Chess dot com eventually released the evidence publicly. Asking why they did this about Niemann and not other GMs seems a little strange. They are directly responding to the current controversy, and Niemann's claims about what chess dot com's evidence about him was.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:46
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Ravel posted:Niemann was the one who brought up his chess dot com ban in his Sinquefeld interview, after they had privately banned him (again). I think the way they handle cheater gms seems incredibly stupid, shortsighted, and confusing. This is entirely tangential to the veracity and strength of their report, however: it seems decently thorough and is quite damning to Hans' side of the story while stopping short of definitive OTB cheating accusations without overwhelming proof.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:48
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I basically agree with the idea that a player, especially a child, should be allowed a second chance. Banning them from money events during that second chance makes sense. It's a bit iffy when we start getting into third chances, and a complete lack of communication between the various bodies that independently handle cheating in their own little kingdoms. How many of the cheaters chess.com caught just switched to cheating on lichess? "We'll publish receipts if you lie about your cheating publicly" is also a reasonable policy that seemingly hasn't been needed until now That said, I wouldn't blame any GM who is mad that the list of titled cheaters is being kept private. It's definitely not obvious to me that the good from second chances outweighs the bad from having known cheaters keep playing in money events that happen to be run by a different organization. The bare minimum, imo, is that fide, lichess, and chess.com should have united policies and regular communication and that just doesn't seem to be the case
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Oct 5, 2022 16:50
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My mind suddenly went to the NFTs of these cheated games.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:51
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basically, chess.com's cheating policy is at best suspect and at worst irresponsible, but, within the confines of that, their recent behavior and the integrity of the report seem to be about as good as one might hope
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Oct 5, 2022 16:52
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Also, a thought just occurred about chess.com and cheat detection. It strikes me that their methods will catch things like players hanging out on blitz and talking to each other over chat while playing. If they're talking about the game and that's affecting their moves then it seems like the blur detection might pick that up. And, while that is in fact cheating, it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that cheat detection is actually trying to catch. It's sort of like how those blitz sessions where Carlsen is hanging out drinking with Howell and whomever are in fact cheating but also not what the actual concern is when it comes to fair play enforcement.
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Oct 5, 2022 16:54
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