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Do you think the real Black Panther Party exists in the MCU, the make believe universe that also decided to have the CIA exist in-universe?
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Oct 4, 2022 17:47
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If you're really that anxious about white supremacists getting good happy tummy-feels from a given movie, just have the entire cast come out at the beginning of the movie and say, "Hillary should have been President." I promise you they will get insanely pissed and everyone else will get to produce/watch whatever movies they want.
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Oct 4, 2022 17:53
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It is. The movie goes out of its way to reject radical change to a system of imperialist oppression, a system with white supremacist ideology at its core, in favor of the feel-good charity of the rich and powerful who benefit from it. Ha. Yeah, Black Panther is a prime example of how self-conscious representation (in front or even behind the camera) barely does poo poo to blunt the fundamentally centrist politics at the movie's core. The sympathetic white CIA guy helping the "rightful king" defend against a coup is one absurd facet. Reducing the revolutionary villain to a morally-compromised psychopath is another. Despite a 95% Black cast and a lot of progressive posturing, Disney made the exact movie they always do, which rejects the possibility of a better world and refuses to go even an inch Left of 90's-style multicultural capitalism. As lily-white as The Northman is, at least it's not doing this. Maxwell Lord posted:See on a fundamental level I just don't think it's ever really a good criticism of a film to say "they should have instead made a completely different film with completely different subject matter." I also feel this way. As much as I'd love to see a historical epic set in pre-Columbian Mexico or pre-colonial Africa, is Robert Eggers going to make these movies? No, probably not. They're not his stories to tell*. There are also tons of indigenous and nonwhite filmmakers with way more to say about either topic who can't get into a room. And they should! I'd love for A24 or Focus Features to find them. But that isn't the fault of Eggers or The Northman, which has its own artistic purpose and perspective. His whole project of making atmospheric time capsules depicting pre-modern European folklore is a narrow but fascinating niche. The problem isn't that he wants to make those movies, it's that art under capitalism is a zero-sum game that silences nonwhite voices. *And per SMG's point, Apocalypto is exactly a situation where an established white filmmaker chose to make a movie about and starring indigenous people set in pre-Columbian Mexico. I even LIKE Apocalypto. But is anyone comfortable with Mel Gibson being the guy to do that?
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Oct 4, 2022 21:46
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Panfilo posted:Who gets to be the ultimate authority on this? Oftentimes it's whoever has the most money. There's that popular line "There are two Americas." But that's just binary/duopolistic thinking. One could easily say there are actually billions of Americas in the noosphere. Jaxyon posted:Every war movie, to some extent, glorifies war, no matter how anti-war it tries to be. I invite anyone to watch Johnny Got His Gun (1971) or Red Angel (1966) and then expound on the glories of war. Zogo fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Oct 4, 2022 |
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Oct 4, 2022 23:23
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Alhazred posted:Very few historical movies are. Pretty much every historical movie has a lot of historical inaccuracies (the fact that everyone is talking modern english for example) but the only anachronism that people seem to care about is skin color. Yes, things are also skewed and shoehorned to fit in with modern cultural sensibilities and marketing et al. If actual perfectly historical films were made many would be more alien, offensive and inscrutable for larger portions of the audience. This goes along with the stale biopic formula of hitting all the familiar notes and sanctimoniously turning the famous subject into a demigod. Deifying figures to no end. Something about biopics frequently brings out a mistaken incredulity. It can be a figure from hundreds of years back and someone will be fixated on some minute detail and say "That's not the way that moment happened!" It reminds me of some recent screeds on those newer Star Wars films. "That wasn't the real Yoda...it was an impostor! That's not my Yoda." But none of these people met the real Yoda. It's a conundrum.
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Oct 4, 2022 23:36
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Zogo posted:Oftentimes it's whoever has the most money. Wanna add the original All Quiet on the Western Front movie (and book) to that list.
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Oct 5, 2022 00:18
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I was watching Andor tonight and was just realizing I'm annoyed at the Empire not coded as all white males in the Disney era. That visual coding was a nice contrast by the Jedi era, and one of the few interesting things about that movie was having the multicultural ship led by the brown Admiral go and blow up the Empire.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:55
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Mr. Grapes! posted:
Sidetone but cowboys and pirates are a big example of this, its estimated around 30% of pirates were black due to the history of slavery coming through the Caribbean and pirate ships being a living for freed or escaped slaves.
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Oct 5, 2022 10:07
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Darko posted:I was watching Andor tonight and was just realizing I'm annoyed at the Empire not coded as all white males in the Disney era. That visual coding was a nice contrast by the Jedi era, and one of the few interesting things about that movie was having the multicultural ship led by the brown Admiral go and blow up the Empire.
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Oct 5, 2022 10:32
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Jaxyon posted:Where did I do that? I’m talking about the criticism within your categorical articulation of what a racist/anti-racist film is. That is, a conception of film production as a kind of totalizing force — because U.S. society is white supremacist, cultural objects are essentially and irredeemably so. Furthermore, it’s a specific kind of totalizing force such that cultural producers are straightforwardly pushing white supremacist stories, unless they responsibly adhere to liberal multiculturalism. Along with this brand of structural determinism is the constituent death of the reader (In Althusserian terms, no subject beyond interpellation): the audience is helplessly inculcated by the white supremacist gaze. Subsequently, the role of the anti-racist film-viewer is to make the correct market choices. POC who like The Northman and don’t think it’s a white supremacist film are unwittingly participating in their own oppression.
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Oct 5, 2022 17:21
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KVeezy3 posted:I’m talking about the criticism within your categorical articulation of what a racist/anti-racist film is. That is, a conception of film production as a kind of totalizing force — because U.S. society is white supremacist, cultural objects are essentially and irredeemably so. Furthermore, it’s a specific kind of totalizing force such that cultural producers are straightforwardly pushing white supremacist stories, unless they responsibly adhere to liberal multiculturalism. You've added a bunch of baggage and nuance to this that I didn't say, please engage with what I've actually typed, with quotes. quote:Along with this brand of structural determinism is the constituent death of the reader (In Althusserian terms, no subject beyond interpellation): the audience is helplessly inculcated by the white supremacist gaze. Subsequently, the role of the anti-racist film-viewer is to make the correct market choices. POC who like The Northman and don’t think it’s a white supremacist film are unwittingly participating in their own oppression. Again, same. Feel free to reply to things I've written instead of whatever this is.
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Oct 5, 2022 18:05
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massive spider posted:Sidetone but cowboys and pirates are a big example of this, its estimated around 30% of pirates were black due to the history of slavery coming through the Caribbean and pirate ships being a living for freed or escaped slaves. Literally almost everything about cowboys is the culture of PoC but you wouldn't know that from watching hollywood movies about cowboys.
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Oct 5, 2022 18:07
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Pirates I feel are portrayed with a diverse group of people in a lot of media though. Of course among the pirate gang might boil down to racial stereotypes among its members.
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Oct 5, 2022 18:45
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Panfilo posted:Pirates I feel are portrayed with a diverse group of people in a lot of media though. Of course among the pirate gang might boil down to racial stereotypes among its members. I dunno if that's the case in movies. Maybe other media? Pretty much any speaking part in any private movie is white people telling white stories. Our Flag Means Death is a TV show that at least tries to have some decent diversity but that's super recent and not really reflected in the theatrical pirate movies of the past few decades, and it's still about a privileged white guy's life. Notably, however, in a modern tale of pirates where they're not the protagonist and not romanticized at all, we have no problem casting black folks, as in Captain Philips.
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Oct 5, 2022 19:00
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Panfilo posted:Pirates I feel are portrayed with a diverse group of people in a lot of media though. Of course among the pirate gang might boil down to racial stereotypes among its members. Yeah, I'd guess pirate crews are "diverse" for reasons of vague Orientalism. The buttoned-up British Navy are totally white and very manicured, while the pirates are all shades with weird scars and tattoos and missing limbs and crazy clothing they got from their adventures in the mysterious Orient or the darkest heart of Black Africa. The only thing they represent is a colonial imagination running wild. And they're usually villainous or at least morally ambiguous. While cowboys represent the heroism and independent spirit of America, and thus are white in media despite being mostly Black and Latino IRL.
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Oct 5, 2022 19:54
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Pirate stereotypes mostly came from Treasure Island and voice actors in the 1940s who started using a gravelly voice.
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Oct 5, 2022 22:50
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Jaxyon posted:You've added a bunch of baggage and nuance to this that I didn't say, please engage with what I've actually typed, with quotes. Do you think that the film industry embracing liberal multiculturalism in its stories would be important to fighting white supremacy?
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Oct 5, 2022 23:26
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KVeezy3 posted:Do you think that the film industry embracing liberal multiculturalism in its stories would be important to fighting white supremacy? Do you think replying to the posts I make would be good or do you just want to frame my opinions in the way you would be most comfortable replying? Also "maybe we should cast a single non-white person" is "liberal mutliculturism" eh
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Oct 6, 2022 00:07
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I am simply trying to get to the point. You have no opinions on liberal multiculturalism in film representation?
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Oct 6, 2022 00:18
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KVeezy3 posted:I am simply trying to get to the point. You have no opinions on liberal multiculturalism in film representation? Then get to the point by replying to my posts.
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Oct 6, 2022 00:23
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KVeezy3 posted:Do you think that the film industry embracing liberal multiculturalism in its stories would be important to fighting white supremacy? since you're just kinda doing that thing where someone with nothing to say just asks questions, can you clarify and define 'important' in this? Like, is this a question on if one day the dominant pop culture in America was entirely multicultural and diverse in its portrayals would that have a major role in making that expression of life the 'norm' for most people, or is this a thing where you're asking if making a black mermaid will dismantle the white supremacist state including the Disney board of executives that made it?
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Oct 6, 2022 02:24
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You can think colorblind casting was revelatory, even if it was born of necessity to give the required black (or moorish) actor in the troup some other roles to play. You can also recognize its place in history and how we've moved beyond that. Practicality gives was to counterculture with gender flipped, race flipped, etc. But that's still silo'd. Liberal multiculturalism and brown washing is an improvement over what came before it, but we need to move beyond it. How to square that with the "curse of bigness" which has a pendulum-like movement and right now we are deep into "BIG".
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Oct 6, 2022 02:56
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Xealot posted:Yeah, I'd guess pirate crews are "diverse" for reasons of vague Orientalism. The buttoned-up British Navy are totally white and very manicured, while the pirates are all shades with weird scars and tattoos and missing limbs and crazy clothing they got from their adventures in the mysterious Orient or the darkest heart of Black Africa. The only thing they represent is a colonial imagination running wild.
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Oct 6, 2022 10:34
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Alhazred posted:I honestly can't think of a movie where the pirater where the villains and the British navy where the heroes. The first Pirates of the Caribbean, kinda? Like Johnny Depp is a hero and so is his new crew with Zoe Saldana and all that lot, but Barbossa and the black pearl crew are baddies. But the navy are also antagonists to our heroes for portions of the film but Norrington also does a face turn at the end? But you're right, doesn't happen often 
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Oct 6, 2022 10:47
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Alhazred posted:I honestly can't think of a movie where the pirater where the villains and the British navy where the heroes. I swear I watched a Hornblower like this, but it's been a decade.
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Oct 6, 2022 12:27
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massive spider posted:Sidetone but cowboys and pirates are a big example of this, its estimated around 30% of pirates were black due to the history of slavery coming through the Caribbean and pirate ships being a living for freed or escaped slaves. Why don't they make a lot more loving pirate movies? It feels like in the last 30 years there was Cutthroat Island and then the Johnny Depp Pirates stuff, and almost nothing else? Is there anything else? I'd honestly love to see a pirate movie where they just enjoy having pirates doing real pirate things without any ghosts or zombies or sea monsters or whatever. Hell, make one about Black Caesar. Seems like an easy sell since they can get some old white dude to chew the scenery as Blackbeard until he gets offed and it becomes Caesar's journey.
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Oct 6, 2022 12:45
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It makes sense in a way, since it matches how the Empire evolved in real life. Does it? You lost me on 'real life' I'm kind of confused. Are we talking about the British Empire? Or the Star Wars Empire? In all the 70s/80s Star Wars movies the Empire was exclusively old British white dudes as far as I could tell. In the Disney era they have women and non-white folk everywhere, including in positions of command. Some of these are even set before the actual Star Wars original, like Rogue One and Obi-Wan. It always struck me as weird because they were obviously going for Nazi parallel but now they are not, and no one in the fiction acknowledges it whatsoever. It just seems an odd Disney way of going about it, in that hey, black ladies can be Nazis too you guys! Mr. Grapes! fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Oct 6, 2022 |
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Oct 6, 2022 12:48
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I assumed they're referring to America where you have your Candace Owens types that end up joining the oppression for their own benefit.
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Oct 6, 2022 13:03
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Mr. Grapes! posted:Why don't they make a lot more loving pirate movies? It feels like in the last 30 years there was Cutthroat Island and then the Johnny Depp Pirates stuff, and almost nothing else? Is there anything else? I’m gonna have to paraphrase a half remembered thing I read here but it’s partly because pirate films keep bombing and Hollywood hates that kind of risk. The POTC stuff is the exception. It doesent help that filming on water creates all kinds of budget hassles, although with green screen these days you’d think they’d have figured out s as way round it.
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Oct 6, 2022 13:12
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Darko posted:I assumed they're referring to America where you have your Candace Owens types that end up joining the oppression for their own benefit. As for the idea of joining the oppression, is there supposed to be any specific to say the black people of Star Wars? You have tons of weird-rear end aliens around, I don't really see why racism should exist in any systemic way at that point, being supplanted instead by speciesism.
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Oct 6, 2022 14:09
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garycoleisgod posted:The first Pirates of the Caribbean, kinda? Like Johnny Depp is a hero and so is his new crew with Zoe Saldana and all that lot, but Barbossa and the black pearl crew are baddies. But the navy are also antagonists to our heroes for portions of the film but Norrington also does a face turn at the end? But you're right, doesn't happen often Norrington only becomes sympathetic once he betrays the british navy. And Barbossa is a pretty sympathetic villain, he doesn't do what he do because he's evil but because he want to break his curse. And by the third movie the navy has truly and irreversibly became the bad guys while the pirates are the good guys who fight against oppression.
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Oct 6, 2022 14:31
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Mr. Grapes! posted:Why don't they make a lot more loving pirate movies? As others have said, shooting on water is super expensive, and they don't tend to be successful. Our Flag Means Death is probably the most recent example and a ton of that is shot on land. I assume most/all of the sea stuff is green screen.
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Oct 6, 2022 17:34
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How many pirate stories can you tell? 1) They rob the treasure 2) They search for treasure 3) ???
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Oct 6, 2022 20:07
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Not enough movie versions of historical lady pirates, which are always loving good stories.
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Oct 6, 2022 20:40
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Fish of hemp posted:How many pirate stories can you tell? The treasure robs them.
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Oct 6, 2022 21:19
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Dumpmaster General posted:since you're just kinda doing that thing where someone with nothing to say just asks questions, can you clarify and define 'important' in this? Like, is this a question on if one day the dominant pop culture in America was entirely multicultural and diverse in its portrayals would that have a major role in making that expression of life the 'norm' for most people, or is this a thing where you're asking if making a black mermaid will dismantle the white supremacist state including the Disney board of executives that made it? I'm asking if it's a unilaterally good thing, regardless of how big or small the effect is.
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Oct 6, 2022 21:37
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KVeezy3 posted:I'm asking if it's a unilaterally good thing, regardless of how big or small the effect is. So you'd like to ask an unnuanced larger question instead of reply to longer posts that discuss things more specific than generalizations, with regards to an extremely nuanced and complicated social issue and structure?
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Oct 6, 2022 21:54
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Have people in this thread heard of Black Sails? Plenty of queer / black / lady pirates (one's all three), plus some great action. Slow af first season though. A Buttery Pastry posted:As for the idea of joining the oppression, is there supposed to be any specific to say the black people of Star Wars? You have tons of weird-rear end aliens around, I don't really see why racism should exist in any systemic way at that point, being supplanted instead by speciesism. I've never understood this argument. It's not like everyone suddenly stopped being poo poo to women when other minorities emerged in the public consciousness. Instead bigots found new, additional, targets for their ire. That, and systems of oppression are invested in maintaining themselves; they might elevate some subaltern groups out of necessity (like the way women were given power thanks, in part, to WW2 reducing the male workforce) but they've been trying to stuff that genie back in the bottle ever since, and to some success if we consider e.g. abortion rights in the US.
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Oct 6, 2022 22:31
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Heard it was good, never watched it.
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Oct 6, 2022 22:51
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Mr. Grapes! posted:Why don't they make a lot more loving pirate movies? It feels like in the last 30 years there was Cutthroat Island and then the Johnny Depp Pirates stuff, and almost nothing else? Is there anything else? You need to see Black Sails it's peak pirates being pirates.
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Oct 7, 2022 01:28
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