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In principle yeah the idea of royalties to get used as training data makes sense. Practically, I don't see how that would actually work. The models have to train on enormous amounts of data -- the data set Stable Diffusion trained on was 5 billion images, how could you ever manage royalty payments for that logistically? From a legal perspective this is likely the same thing as killing AI art generation models, which a lot of people in this thread would be happy with, but the practical impact of that would probably just be people turning to the high seas, clandestine ML models trading hands outside of law-abiding parts of the web. The cat's out of the bag, it's too useful to people (and too related to other ML tech that will continue on) to effectively suppress.
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Oct 7, 2022 05:07
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Kalman posted:That's neither how U.S. copyright law nor machine learning models/output work. You're pretending that the person running Photoshop or training the ML model doesn't exist, which is convenient when you're also falsely claiming that they're not committing any crimes.
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Oct 7, 2022 05:14
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Cicero posted:It's not just anime chicks, they can already make good art with the right prompts but if you post any examples all the people who are skeptical will just go frankly even if ai image generators begin making images that look aesthetically pleasing to me, i still won't like them. i'll tell you up front that i'm biased and that it has no value to me whatsoever. i could certainly see other people deriving value from the whole enterprise, and i wish them well, but to me it's just hollow imitation. there are real human artists i disrespect for similar reasons but i at least respect that they learned the craft. the guys stringing together words and phrases to generate these images just strike me as acting like you're a chef because you told the pizza place what toppings you want, or putting "good at google searches" on your resume and yeah obviously the cat's out of the bag on the whole thing but i don't have to like or respect it!
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Oct 7, 2022 05:14
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Leng posted:And on the subject of whether or not that an ML algorithm is infringing on copyright just because it used an image in its training set, I'm not sure things are so clear cut. If you look over to the GDPR side of things, there's kind of a problem in that once an ML algorithm has been trained on a piece of data, that data is inherently part of the model. Mathematically speaking, an algorithm trained on a dataset comprising X+Y is not equal to an algorithm just trained on X. I'm mostly speaking to US law, since it's what I know best, but the EU has already explicitly carved out exclusions in copyright for text and data mining for scientific research (which the creation of a better model could qualify as). And the idea that data is "part of" a model doesn't really matter in a copyright context, given copyright's limitation to expression of an idea, not the idea itself, as well as the general treatment of this type of use of copyrighted works as a fair use. Giving some kind of residual for every single bit of input data into every single ML training set sounds nightmarish beyond belief.
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Oct 7, 2022 05:18
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There's a few different problems with royalties that I see: * If you want permission, then you have to contact an insane number of people, and you won't be able to find a person for every image you find. We're talking millions of people at a minimum. * If you go the route of radio music licensing where there's just a set rate (that's how that works right?) and you don't need permission, you still need to contact all those people at some point for giving them the royalties * You could flip the expectation around and ask people to come forward to register if they're in the data I guess, but then you still need some process for authentication for that many people * When do you need to pay? If I generate fifty images before finding one good one to use, do I pay for one thing or fifty? * How much do you need to pay? What's the $ difference between a kid putting a picture on his geocities page vs an indie board game designer creating background art vs a corporation using a picture as their logo? * How do you apportion how much each person gets paid? Equal probably doesn't make sense when some artists are getting constantly name dropped in the prompts whereas some other training art was basically just filler * How do you enforce payment when someone uses the model? How do you prove that a person or company used some particular model rather than just made the art themselves, or hired someone to do it?
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Oct 7, 2022 05:22
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Ok this is a good topic and worth talking about but there's probably a better subforum for it somewhere else on this site other than the library . At some point someone might come in here looking to talk about fantasy novels and we don't want them thinking they're in debate and discussion by mistake.
Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 05:34
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All I will say is that there is an element of this that is on topic. Which is, the thread has in the past had conversations about whether it's good or bad that fantasy is becoming increasingly algorithm-driven, increasingly about shifting startup costs onto the author and away from the publisher, increasingly about creating product in huge volume to hit very targeted niches (often by exploiting the algorithm). People have often talked about these trends as democratizing, or grassroots, or even 'indie' - literally independent. But of course they're not that at all. They're a process of centralization, where all artistic production is priced and published by a single monolith that pretends to be more democratic because, instead of rejecting most work, it accepts all work and then leaves most of it to die. I can see nothing bad, personally, about the creation of art falling under the control of computer people. They've only had good effects on every other sector of public discourse.
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Oct 7, 2022 06:04
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I think that's an oversimplification. Of course it's true that there's been centralization around Amazon for a lot of indies (e.g. Kindle Unlimited), and in the Western web serial space people rely on RoyalRoad and Patreon. Being dependent on specific platforms like this obviously isn't great, a de facto monopoly means you're beholden to that platform. On the other hand, it's true that it means people can write to their audience more. It's hard to see a traditional publisher ever picking up something like The Wandering Inn, a story that takes millions of words to get anywhere with its plot because it's too busy talking about inn upgrades and introducing its 171st PoV character while someone fucks an ant in the background, but clearly a lot of people enjoy that sort of thing. There's quite a bit of direct audience-author interaction that I see, much more than I've seen for tradpub authors (though of course there's plenty of variance on both sides). I'm sure many here bemoan even the non-centralization bits, either because they despise the content trends in the space or because they would prefer authors stay most of their time in their writing tower, only descending to present a finished product once a year. I wouldn't want traditional publishing to go away, but I think it's neat that this other path has become viable for a fair number of authors, even if it would be good to have more options in which platforms you can engage with users on. Cicero fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 06:17
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General Battuta posted:computer people The politically correct term is "Mind."
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Oct 7, 2022 06:25
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i will never submit to the authority of Theopolis and the Computer Council
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Oct 7, 2022 06:38
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quote:* If you want permission, then you have to contact an insane number of people, and you won't be able to find a person for every image you find. We're talking millions of people at a minimum. Lmfao imagine using this defence for anything else "yeah, I get to plagiarise your work because it just wasn't feasible to contact you, sorry." If your fancy ai depends on this to function then maybe it shouldn't function. Did this thread get transported to yospos, why does everyone want to gently caress and cum in the computer all of a sudden
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Oct 7, 2022 06:41
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Horizon Burning posted:why does everyone want to gently caress and cum in the computer all of a sudden it's where all the algorithmically-generated big titty anime waifus are
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Oct 7, 2022 07:11
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I started reading night birds feather tonight and it’s real good. I love the authors style and have difficulty seeing how an algorithm could generate prose of similar quality
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Oct 7, 2022 07:12
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HopperUK posted:There's no way to express this, I think, without sounding like a Luddite, and I am not that. But I am someone who cares a lot about visual art and a hobby artist. When you look at a painting, it matters that it's a painting, that someone learned the skill to make it. You see the brush strokes, you can imagine the artist creating it. Or looking at digital art, even; someone *made* that, a human person made it to express something and when you look at it, there's a meeting of minds, and they speak to you through the art. Even if the art is bad or trivial or stupid. How about if i make 100 AI pictures, after working on the prompt for a few days, then pick the best one? Is that more or less art than say Andy warhols stuff? Like i get what you are saying, i just think you can apply that 'it is missing the unique special human element' to almost every part of our weird modern lives and every single time people manage to be human in amongst it regardless
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Oct 7, 2022 08:05
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What if we don't think most humans are managing to be humans?
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Oct 7, 2022 08:10
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Point.
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Oct 7, 2022 08:12
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Weirdest derail for this thread yet. I miss the days of bullshit Artificial Intelligence claims like back in the 1980's when an AI won a Traveller RPG competition for two straight years, then got banned from competing for a third time. Amazingly the bungie marathon story website is still getting new comments, and I badly need to find an offline archive of that website. Crazy deep lore that covers almost every game Bungie the game developer ever made.
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Oct 7, 2022 08:17
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Of all the places for people to get furious about computers making art, the sci-fi thread is the last place I'd have thought it would happen.
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Oct 7, 2022 08:26
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No. No more dancing! posted:Of all the places for people to get furious about computers making art, the sci-fi thread is the last place I'd have thought it would happen. Hm, the thread about the genre that does cautionary tales about technology, full of people who have lived through the last twenty years of technology improving our lives and social discourse. What a weird place to find concern about the effect of computers on art.
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Oct 7, 2022 08:29
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Really the concern is not so much about computers making art as it is about the fact that artists already can't make money and capitalists would really like to get rid of them and control the generative process themselves. Computers making art is just a good tool to achieve that goal. First the journalist went to the algorithm, then the fantasy writer, now the fantasy artist. If you will. e: to be clear I don't think fantasy writers and artists are nearly as important as journalists to a healthy society, but let me have this one
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Oct 7, 2022 08:30
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My concern is entirely the computers. If I had the ability I'd smash in every single CPU, Mainframe, and Server on this drat planet with a baseball bat.
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Oct 7, 2022 08:45
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Interesting posts, here's my algorithm: *faaaaaaaaaaart*
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Oct 7, 2022 08:48
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General Battuta posted:capitalists It turns out it wasn't those nasty STEM boogie men and their computers that were the problem at all, but just the bog-standard rich and powerful.
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Oct 7, 2022 09:11
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No, you see, to make truly great art there needs to be a financial incentive. Nerds are threatening that.
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Oct 7, 2022 09:27
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No. No more dancing! posted:Of all the places for people to get furious about computers making art, the sci-fi thread is the last place I'd have thought it would happen. The computers aren't making art, people are using computers to steal other people's art.
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Oct 7, 2022 09:55
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PupsOfWar posted:i will never submit to the authority of Theopolis and the Computer Council Buck Rogers? More on topic: AI will never recreate the je ne sais quoi of a 30 part space harem series but they can only improve on the light refraction of the glistening cleavage cover art
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Oct 7, 2022 11:47
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Well these last few pages filled me with dread for the future  I started reading Iron Widow and it seems pretty good so far. I usually don't like YA but I enjoy how everything in this is turned up to 11--more melodrama, more emotions, more grimdarkness. And the prose doesn't annoy me.
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Oct 7, 2022 12:01
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Sailor Viy posted:I started reading Iron Widow and it seems pretty good so far. I usually don't like YA but I enjoy how everything in this is turned up to 11--more melodrama, more emotions, more grimdarkness. And the prose doesn't annoy me. The MechaChina setting for this book owns and I agree the prose is pretty decent for what it is. Potential readers should be prepared for an extremely YA protagonist. It bugged me enough where I kind of struggled to finish it, but I can't hate on somebody following their dream of making a titanic fanfic of their favorite empress shooting the patriarchy in the dick with a jade-powered railgun.
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Oct 7, 2022 12:23
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Sailor Viy posted:Well these last few pages filled me with dread for the future I mean, if you really want to feel dread for the future, just go spend any amount of time in D&D  I’m currently reading Elder Race, a cool novella by Adrian Tchaikovsky about a princess who goes to a wizard to try to save her people from a demon. Except the wizard is actually an anthropologist from Earth on a multi-century study of the offspring of a human colony ship that landed on this planet hundreds of years ago. It switches off between 1st person POV of the princess and the wizard and the way it blends both Fantasy and Sci Fi narration to tell the story is really compelling and fun.
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Oct 7, 2022 12:25
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Cicero posted:We obviously need a reality show called "Is it AI?" where people try to tell if art has the real soul of a human artist or is a cheap knockoff from bleep bloop. This is a ridiculous argument. If you gave a random person off the street a test on mathematics or chemistry or history or medicine they’d flunk that too. Are we to declare all those fields obvious garbage as well?
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Oct 7, 2022 12:47
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General Battuta posted:All I will say is that there is an element of this that is on topic. . . . . Oh absolutely! It's a huge issue! I mean, just at a basic level, these programs cannot innovate. All they do is make more "x" that's similar to previous "x". But no AI is looking at X and developing Y. And the problem is that working artists need to be able to make money making X in order to have the time and develop the skill set that leads to the next Y. Martha Wells has been writing for decades before she came up with Murderbot (to just pick one example that springs to mind). Robert Jordan wrote licensed Conan fiction for years before he sold the pitch for Eye of the World to Tor. If licensed Conan fiction is getting written by an AI instead, the Wheel of Time never happens. (And if you think "small loss," remember that Wheel of Time basically financed Tor for a couple of decades; without Wheel of Time, nobody else published by Tor since like 1992 would have gotten published, or at least not published by Tor). So yeah, it's a big issue and worth talking about and potentially on topic -- it's something that could literally destroy the entire book industry, potentially, or at least the entire book industry that isn't isekai and Kindle Unlimited porn. . . just let's try to keep the discussion at least loosely peripheral to books so that just in case anyone comes in here looking to talk about a book they realize they're in the right place and not in (for example) the D&D "Tech Nightmares" thread. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 12:54
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No. No more dancing! posted:It turns out it wasn't those nasty STEM boogie men and their computers that were the problem at all, but just the bog-standard rich and powerful. They're the same picture.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:23
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:I’m currently reading Elder Race, a cool novella by Adrian Tchaikovsky about a princess who goes to a wizard to try to save her people from a demon. Except the wizard is actually an anthropologist from Earth on a multi-century study of the offspring of a human colony ship that landed on this planet hundreds of years ago. It switches off between 1st person POV of the princess and the wizard and the way it blends both Fantasy and Sci Fi narration to tell the story is really compelling and fun. Also this whole AI art debate feels like those self driving car debates from 8 years ago. This problem is just as asymptotic, what you see now is more or less what you're gonna see for the next decade cause this field is moving into the hard part now.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I mean, just at a basic level, these programs cannot innovate. All they do is make more "x" that's similar to previous "x". But no AI is looking at X and developing Y. We don’t understand what innovation means well enough to say how it differs from really good pattern matching though. It’s no coincidence that science fiction started getting written in an optimistic interbellum age of technological leaps and bounds, after all. Hieronymous Alloy posted:If licensed Conan fiction is getting written by an AI instead, the Wheel of Time never happens. I’m pretty sure an AI could have generated an “anime inspired series about a male magic user with a destiny to save the world from female witches gone over the line while making friends and collecting a harem along the way.”
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Oct 7, 2022 13:30
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If your brain only recognises art at the level of a TV Tropes page, maybe
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Oct 7, 2022 13:32
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bravesword posted:This is a ridiculous argument. If you gave a random person off the street a test on mathematics or chemistry or history or medicine they’d flunk that too. Are we to declare all those fields obvious garbage as well? Yes
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Oct 7, 2022 13:32
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No Dignity posted:If your brain only recognises art at the level of a TV Tropes page, maybe That's kinda the thing. Like, yes, an AI could probably take a random list of TV tropes pages and combine them into a narrative. But each trope on TV tropes started somewhere and was new once and an AI can't come up with new things. If AIs are writing all the fiction and actual humans cant get published, then all we have for the rest of time is tvtropes pages endlessly recombined by the algorithm, and none of us ever get to read anything new ever again.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:37
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:an AI can't come up with new things. You just begged the question. These AIs? Doesn’t look like it. All AIs? And we’re ignoring mathematical proofs and drugs which have been previously discovered by AI? Hell, even alpha go has shown some interesting chess strategies and ways of thinking about the board which were novel to highly trained humans and inspired discussion and study. ulmont fucked around with this message at 13:42 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 13:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:all we have for the rest of time is tvtropes pages endlessly recombined by the algorithm, and none of us ever get to read anything new ever again. This is already half the Artstation creative process with stuff being kitbashed out of photograph libraries (or stolen photos, I wouldn't know) and commercial texture packs. Because they're jobbing for work at film and game studios, the artists talk all about how this gives them the most efficient workflow - which IMO is how you can really spot top artistic talent. Dare I say the T word tracing
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Oct 7, 2022 13:46
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AI art would be super cool to explore if we were in the fully gay space communism timeline, but we're in the capitalist hellworld timeline so we just get the techbro wealth extraction version instead and it's going to try and leave the human beings it relied on to create their model to starve. Give everyone UBI then we can train ai models on whatever art you can find with no morally questionable copyright "but it's not illegal" poo poo. Anyway, I'm 3 chapters into The Half-Built Garden and it's only just tickled at the edges of the worldbuilding, but it seems like they're running a full anarchism society driven by overlapping networks and AI algorithms and I hope it all works out for them and I'm jealous, even if chapter 1 had a first contact spaceship arrive and immediately poop in the river it landed next to.
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