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You can't tell if they're being coerced or not, and even the best intentioned interview has a degree of implicit coercion with it (cooperative prisoners get treated better). I mean, though, this guy has some strong 'just happy to be on TV' energy. It's hard to get mad about this one.
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Oct 7, 2022 12:44
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yeah imo they're more worthless as a source of information than anything else. Ukraine's surrender hotline apparently tells prospective surrenderees to check out that youtube channel. afaict that guy's channel is very heavily directed towards Ukrainians and to a lesser extent Russians. I've also come across other smaller channels run by SBU guys doing something very similar but they never took off the same way that guy's did.
Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 12:48
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your name your rank your serial number your crimes how dick doing
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Oct 7, 2022 12:52
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:You can't tell if they're being coerced or not, and even the best intentioned interview has a degree of implicit coercion with it (cooperative prisoners get treated better). I'll admit I'm wrong on this certainly. There are certainly debriefings that the prisoners undergo prior to appearing in these videos. I like to imagine that they choose to appear in them, however likely for better treatment or rewards.
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Oct 7, 2022 12:52
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"We have ways of making you talk about your World of Tanks scam and your egirl donations."
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Oct 7, 2022 13:14
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Don't loving put POWs on film even if they say they do it of their own free will
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Oct 7, 2022 13:15
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Herstory Begins Now posted:lol there is zero evidence that they're doing that of their own free will, they're loving pows who are aware that ukraine, until very recently, had the exact same reputation as russia wrt how intelligence services treated prisoners Compared to being starved to death, having bones broken and not set, eyes gouged out and genitalia cut off or just lined up and shot I think I'll give the UA pass.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:28
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Any sort of video release that goes beyond proof of life, identity, and condition is sketchy wrt the laws of warfare. It's not a great look, but it's nowhere near on the scale of a bucket full of gold teeth. I agree that Ukraine should be more circumspect with the release of these videos. What I don't agree with is the notion that has been floated elsewhere that Ukraine should keep the identities of the POWs secret to protect the captives' families safe from Russian reprisal. It's not up to Ukraine to keep Russians safe from their own evil government.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:43
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^yeah pretty muchRaged posted:Compared to being starved to death, having bones broken and not set, eyes gouged out and genitalia cut off or just lined up and shot I think I'll give the UA pass. okay?
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Oct 7, 2022 13:43
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A.o.D. posted:I think Russia should be allowed to recruit in the US, provided they use the pitch "Only you can save the White Race!" I like the way you think.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:48
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Force de Fappe posted:Don't loving put POWs on film even if they say they do it of their own free will
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Oct 7, 2022 13:51
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A.o.D. posted:It's not a great look, but it's nowhere near on the scale of a bucket full of gold teeth. About that: Nenonen posted:Bild has made an interesting interview with a rural dentist from Kharkiv region who claims that the box of golden teeth captured from Russians is not evidence of Russians torturing Ukrainians like Ukrainian MoD claimed, but something much more mundane - loot from his private tooth collection. Still looting, mind you, and stupid looting at that given that they're apparently not actually gold, but not quite as horrible as first feared. (This is obviously not to give the Russians a pass for all the OTHER extremely well-documented atrocities mind you)
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Oct 7, 2022 14:22
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In the era of 400 lb film cameras and physical media I can see how filming propaganda with POWs would be an actual production. In the era of universal cameras, I would find it way more suspicious as a young zoomer soldier to be hiding what you're doing to your POWs.
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Oct 7, 2022 14:35
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https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1578378670661566464
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Oct 7, 2022 14:36
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Pine Cone Jones posted:As far as I'm aware, they aren't forced to do this, If someone is 100% released from captivity and out freely doing their own thing, then they talk to media, that’s one thing. But there’s no credible claim of consent when held by a foreign army as a prisoner and “consenting” to a broadcast interrogation.
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Oct 7, 2022 14:44
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mlmp08 posted:If someone is 100% released from captivity and out freely doing their own thing, then they talk to media, that’s one thing. I suppose that is true. Given that they are PoW's and the circumstances of the conflict, one can't exactly release them into public and it's hard to find a middle ground to where videos could be considered ethically produced. https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1578387476363755520 also the Gavin rides again Pine Cone Jones fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 14:49
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I'm going to get poo poo for this, but this is seriously like the failure to make a full stop at a red light (Philly Stop) of war crimes. I understand people objecting and that's fine, but after seeing those Azov guys look like they were in Dachu...I just can't give a poo poo unless something different starts occurring in these videos. That’s not even counting the fact that despite being very very pissed, Ukrainians have constantly provided medical care to wounded Russian soldiers before taking them into custody. Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 15:33
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Marshal Prolapse posted:I'm going to get poo poo for this, but this is seriously like the failure to make a full stop at a red light (Philly Stop) of war crimes. I understand people objecting and that's fine, but after seeing those Azov guys look like they were in Dachu...I just can't give a poo poo unless something different starts occurring in these videos. Macro vs micro. Macro, in principle, it's a bad thing and can have some ugly poo poo tied to it that people have rightly already brought up. Micro, we all know every reason both genuine, and maybe cynically more for external PR consumption, why most of us would doubt any real negative implications of these videos.
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Oct 7, 2022 15:42
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Marshal Prolapse posted:I'm going to get poo poo for this, but this is seriously like the failure to make a full stop at a red light (Philly Stop) of war crimes. Two wrongs don't make a right, basically. It's very easy not to make these videos and not to spread them. The means by which a government provides proof of life etc doesn't require interviews and is supposed to be gov to gov or gov to accepted third party intermediary to gov if they aren't talking to each other. Ukraine would not release the video if they didn't feel there was IO or propaganda gains to be made from it, so fundamentally it is the exploitation of a prisoner for informational, propaganda, or PR gains purposes. A generic video of just 100 dudes being marched onto buses or laying down arms is different, as they don't really contain PII or compelled statements, just the fact of "here are prisoners being marched to detention."
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Oct 7, 2022 15:47
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Honestly, I think it’s been useful in convincing Russians to surrender and call the I want to live hotline. I think an argument can be made for it being a humanitarian action for Russian conscripts. Yes I had a law professor named Yoo…what’s your point? I didn’t, although I did have someone at SHU who was considered for White House council in the Obama administration. That’s not a flex as law school wasn’t terribly helpful with learning the actual practical practice of law, except for a NY Civil Procedure course which taught the practical
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Oct 7, 2022 15:52
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Marshal Prolapse posted:I think an argument can be made for it being a humanitarian action for Russian conscripts. If you go down that track, Russia could make the exact same argument while releasing a compelled statement from a Ukrainian conscript, arguing that convincing Ukrainian conscripts not to fight is a humanitarian act that saves Ukrainian lives and brings peace faster. It's a very ethically bankrupt path of ends/means to go down instead of adhering, even during difficult times, to the rules and laws established during less difficult times.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:01
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mlmp08 posted:If you go down that track, Russia could make the exact same argument while releasing a compelled statement from a Ukrainian conscript, arguing that convincing Ukrainian conscripts not to fight is a humanitarian act that saves Ukrainian lives and brings peace faster. Russia could argue that it's helping with overpopulation in Ukraine. Just because you can argue something doesn't mean it's not dumb or a valid argument, just ask Roger Waters...or Dimitri Peskov. I don't think there is any and I mean any comparison with Russia actions that wouldn't immediately be laughed at in all normal posting areas.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:07
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Marshal Prolapse posted:in all normal posting areas. Maybe this is where the disconnect is. I am talking about the law of armed conflict, treatment of POWs, and the ICRC. I am not talking about whether SA posters support an act or not.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:11
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International law is a fake idea
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Oct 7, 2022 16:14
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Marshal Prolapse posted:Honestly, I think it’s been useful in convincing Russians to surrender and call the I want to live hotline. I think an argument can be made for it being a humanitarian action for Russian conscripts. gently caress Yoo I don't feel that strongly about your sparkling war crimin' but that was too beautiful a setup to let it go by...
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Oct 7, 2022 16:15
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It should not be measured against Russias actions, it should be measured against the laws of war and humane/ethical treatment. Theres a big difference between relative and absolute measurements here. If all they have to do is say "At least we aren't as bad as Russia" and everything is all right, they could go a long distance and do a lot of harm.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:15
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joat mon posted:gently caress Yoo  I'd be saddened if someone didn't post that after having it pop into their head. I also fully believe that Ukraine could do nothing to humiliate the World of Tanks Egirl guy that he hasn't already done himself. I'm not trying to say it's fine because Russia is worse, I'm saying it's mostly a tempest in a teapot, because this issue is the most serious human rights issue that can even be argued against Ukraine. It's fine to object to it, I just feel that when we see Ukraine spending time to properly follow the rules in terms of surrendering troops and providing care and allowing them to surrender ahead of time, it's look at the trees and missing the forest. Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 16:18
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Marshal Prolapse posted:Honestly, I think it’s been useful in convincing Russians to surrender and call the I want to live hotline. I think an argument can be made for it being a humanitarian action for Russian conscripts. Yeah, gonna go with "I doubt that" and say the utter lack of food, uniforms, weapons, etc. is gonna be more conducive to conscripts surrendering in droves versus a snazy, legally dubious POW "interviews". Once that first good freeze happens and they have no winter gear a lot will just melt away either to the rear or through UAF lines. lightpole posted:It should not be measured against Russias actions, it should be measured against the laws of war and humane/ethical treatment. Theres a big difference between relative and absolute measurements here. If all they have to do is say "At least we aren't as bad as Russia" and everything is all right, they could go a long distance and do a lot of harm. BadOptics fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 16:18
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Marshal Prolapse posted:I'm going to get poo poo for this, but this is seriously like the failure to make a full stop at a red light (Philly Stop) of war crimes. I understand people objecting and that's fine, but after seeing those Azov guys look like they were in Dachu...I just can't give a poo poo unless something different starts occurring in these videos. For gently caress sake. For all the complaining about 'tankies' and how CSPAM etc shouldn't be on this forum because of their beliefs, do you really not get how awful it looks and is to take that line? You don't have to start cheering for the RF but don't loving endorse war crimes. The whole point is that there are no good ones. They should all be utterly unacceptable. And every dipshit who apologises for 'minor' war crimes is just chipping away at the taboo and increasing the chances of them being committed. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 16:21
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:"Yeah, it's fine when my side does a war crime." - A hypocritical idiot. No, it's awful to think that all violations of international law are the same. It creates a false equivalency between Russian and Ukraine in terms of actions and morality, for which we can all agree there is none.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:23
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lightpole posted:It should not be measured against Russias actions, it should be measured against the laws of war and humane/ethical treatment. Theres a big difference between relative and absolute measurements here. If all they have to do is say "At least we aren't as bad as Russia" and everything is all right, they could go a long distance and do a lot of harm. There's no discussion to be had on whether this treatment of POWs runs afoul of international laws and norms. It does. Article 13 doesn't leave much for interpretation and the ICRC has clarified that these specific types of films do make a public curiosity out of POWs. End of discussion. Ultimately I don't think that actually means much for Ukraine. Is the behavior widespread and damaging enough to serve as more than the tiniest potential speed bump in negotiations for aids packages? I doubt it. On that subject, how's their application to the EU going? I don't think I've seen much in the news about that lately.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:24
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Marshal Prolapse posted:No, it's awful to think that all violations of international law are the same. You are being very dense if that’s what you think is happening.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:24
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This might just be IMO, but if I was following LOAC and the Geneva Conventions because I feel that they are morally the correct thing to do (let alone good militarily or for political imagery/support), I would probably not be looking at ways to skirt or excuse the rules just because the other person is being a monster. Edit: This too ->>>> Lovely Joe Stalin posted:For gently caress sake. For all the complaining about 'tankies' and how CSPAM etc shouldn't be on this forum because of their beliefs, do you really not get how awful it looks and is to take that line? You don't have to start cheering for the RF but don't loving endorse war crimes.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:26
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Marshal Prolapse posted:No, it's awful to think that all violations of international law are the same. It creates a false equivalency between Russian and Ukraine in terms of actions and morality, for which we can all agree there is none. I didn't say that at all. You're just trying to move away from the fact that despite all your bloviating outrage about the Other group on this forum you're perfectly loving fine with, indeed seemingly even endorsing, war crimes so long as they're committed by your team. It's loving disgusting.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:26
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Why are you turning this into some weird forums rivalry thing lol As far as I can tell you're the only person who brought them up
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Oct 7, 2022 16:30
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Tiny Timbs posted:International law is a fake idea The severing of Russia fron foreign markets is the product of international law. So is the support of NATO. I'm not sure how someone could look at the state of the world today and conclude international law is fake, but here we are.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:30
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:I didn't say that at all. You're just trying to move away from the fact that despite all your bloviating outrage about the Other group on this forum you're perfectly loving fine with, indeed seemingly even endorsing, war crimes so long as they're committed by your team. It's loving disgusting. You just did it again. You're trying to imply these interviews are somehow the same as what Russia does. The other group is a bunch of fascists and morons and full steam ahead on genocide, so I'm cool with saying they can get hosed. Marshal Prolapse fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 16:30
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Grip it and rip it posted:The severing of Russia fron foreign markets is the product of international law. So is the support of NATO. I'm not sure how someone could look at the state of the world today and conclude international law is fake, but here we are. The severing of Russia from foreign markets was a piecemeal implementation by different countries and unions of their own volition and was an act of control over their own resources and systems, not a mandate by an international governing body with the means to enforce its will. Support from NATO is likewise not an enforcement of law.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:33
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Tiny Timbs posted:The severing of Russia from foreign markets was a piecemeal implementation by different countries and unions of their own volition and was an act of control over their own resources, not a mandate by an international governing body with the means to enforce its will. Did laws not exist before police departments?
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Oct 7, 2022 16:34
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Grip it and rip it posted:Did laws not exist before police departments? Nothing existed before the Lex Imperialis.
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Oct 7, 2022 16:34
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