CRUSTY MINGE posted:
Oof. Read the room
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Oct 7, 2022 17:14
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 08:22 |
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mlmp08 posted:If you go down that track, Russia could make the exact same argument while releasing a compelled statement from a Ukrainian conscript, arguing that convincing Ukrainian conscripts not to fight is a humanitarian act that saves Ukrainian lives and brings peace faster. Unfortunately this doesn't track because we have open, documented evidence that Russia tortures POWs to get these statements. Ukraine just appears to put a mic in front of these guys to help sell that they really won't treat Russian POWs the way Russia treats theirs. It makes total sense from a propoganda win because the Russian military is hardly a place of high morale right now, so the more evidence that surrendering is a zero risk game for Russian troops, the better. If you can show Russian conscripts that, no, you won't get murdered or tortured by the Ukrainians if you surrender, unlike the threats Russia is throwing against their own combat troops, it makes it easier for them to make the choice. Yes, it breaks the spirit of the law, but one of these sides is breaking EVERYTHING about the law with POW treatment, and its not Ukraine. Much like when Amnesty made that really lovely report about Ukraine, there will no doubt be plenty of time to investigate Ukrainian abuses, but they do not appear to be happening and anything that undermines Russian attempts to motivate their troops to fight without using combat is a win. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 17:15
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Marshal Prolapse posted:Now there is an example of something I would have thought funny circa 2001-2003, but now I'd look back and say, what a dumb loving thing to do, and how embrassing I thought that was funny. That's not even getting into the fact that Islam, like Judaism, provides a bunch of exemptions, including not knowing. I consider it slightly better than those guys who made the Ji-hawg bullets. I definitely found it funny at the time, but thankfully I've grown and realized it was a lovely thing to do, and now regret the few I handed out. But I'm not a god person, so all of it was just rules lawyering. The world is just rules lawyering now. That Works posted:Oof. Read the room They'd almost certainly be more edible than what Russians are being given in their rations.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:17
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M_Gargantua posted:Really? Because at pretty much every stage of this war Ukraine has shown their superiority to the Russian armed forces. Most of that was internal, with the added bonus that armament and material was provided by other people with other large sticks who wanted to enforce a world where Russia can't just conquer a neighbor. In 2014 about a third of Ukraine was occupied with minimal resistance. The funding and training of the Ukrainian military was a reflection of norms established through, say it with me, international law.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:17
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CommieGIR posted:Yes, it breaks the spirit of the law, but one of these sides is breaking EVERYTHING about the law with POW treatment, and its not Ukraine. You’re late to the conversation, read the thread.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:17
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mlmp08 posted:You’re late to the conversation, read the thread. Yeah this reminds me about when you wouldn't stop ragging about the Amnesty International report that everyone said was bad, and went to all means to defend it. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 17:19
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One thing I'd object to is the notion that there isn't reasonable nuance to be found in the Geneva conventions regarding articles 3 and 13. What constitutes 'public curiosity'? It most likely means displaying POWs as like animals in a zoo, or otherwise in a demeaning fashion not unlike what the Romans would do in a triumph. Is there legal room in the convention to create propaganda footage of POWs receiving meals, medical treatment, and calls home in order to potentially persuade hostile combatants to lay down their arms? I think that depends on how you want to interpret the law. If you decide that the strictest reading and intent of the law is that no POW is ever filmed under any circumstance for any reason, then yeah, don't film them. I think the standard lies more in whether or not some form of injury, whether material or moral, is being inflicted by and/or is intended by the captors who are creating and disseminating the footage. In my personal opinion, I think I've seen footage of Russian POWs that runs the entire spectrum of "holy poo poo don't do this" to "eh.. I dunno" to "This is fine." All I can say for certain is that Ukraine isn't going to stop because their allies haven't raised a fuss and they believe that the footage has a strategic value.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:19
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Hekk posted:It's REALLY easy to talk about LOAC and pretend like your moral compass is always true. Right up until you watch your friends die and find the people you think are responsible. Then the waters get a bit murkier. That's very well said. Its a great guideline to be taught for the guy on the ground to follow. Being codified makes not being an rear end in a top hat more defined and less vague moral compass.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:20
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah this reminds me about when you wouldn't stop ragging about the Amnesty International report that everyone said was bad, and went to all means to defend it. Oh, then [Post Fixed per user request] The thread has been discussing treatment of POWs. Edit: This post has been updated and had words removed per user request. This post now complies with the following demand: CommieGIR posted:Except for the ad homs where you called me weird and dumb. Fix it. mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 17:22
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A.o.D. posted:One thing I'd object to is the notion that there isn't reasonable nuance to be found in the Geneva conventions regarding articles 3 and 13. What constitutes 'public curiosity'? It most likely means displaying POWs as like animals in a zoo, or otherwise in a demeaning fashion not unlike what the Romans would do in a triumph. Given that the reports are saying that the Ukrainian POW hotline they setup is always busy, it appears to be convincing Russians that surrender is a safe way out. mlmp08 posted:Oh, then you’re being a weirdo and dumb. The thread has been discussing treatment of POWs. You didn't read my post at all, did you?
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Oct 7, 2022 17:22
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Post about the conflict in Ukraine and not about each other. This thread has handled difficult topics and conversations remarkably well. Please don't change that trend now.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:26
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Grip it and rip it posted:In 2014 about a third of Ukraine was occupied with minimal resistance. The funding and training of the Ukrainian military was a reflection of norms established through, say it with me, international law. Yes, the existence of international law is predicated on the ability to use, share, and threaten violence. The US funding and training the UA is a great example of that. The actions come first and the law is always retroactive.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:27
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CommieGIR posted:You didn't read my post at all, did you? I did. I still think mistreating POWs is bad, and I have no interest in defending it or excusing it just because what Russia is doing in totality is even worse. That’s why I suggested you read the thread. I think most posters have already outlined whether they believe in fair treatment of all POWs, think exploitation and mistreatment is okay to an extent, or just disagree with the idea of laws in general. It’s redundant at this point; I doubt you will convince me that mistreating POWs is okay or acceptable. I also doubt that Ukraine’s behavior will somehow turn me pro-Russian invasion, either. E: sorry Hekk, your post beat mine. I don’t think the above is terribly outrageous? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2022 17:29
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mlmp08 posted:E: sorry Hekk, your post beat mine. I don’t think the above is terribly outrageous? Except for the ad homs where you called me weird and dumb. Fix it. You don't get to pretend you are acting in good character after you name called somebody and didn't even address my comments until the thread IK called it out. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 7, 2022 17:31
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M_Gargantua posted:Yes, the existence of international law is predicated on the ability to use, share, and threaten violence. The US funding and training the UA is a great example of that. The actions come first and the law is always retroactive. All law is a product of the state's monopoly on violence though? Grip it and rip it fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 17:33
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M_Gargantua posted:Yes, the existence of international law is predicated on the ability to use, share, and threaten violence. The US funding and training the UA is a great example of that. The actions come first and the law is always retroactive. All law is based on the ability to use, share, and threaten violence, what's your point?
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Oct 7, 2022 17:34
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BadOptics posted:Vomlettes for one year. yo hey now let's not say things we can't take back
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Oct 7, 2022 17:39
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Infidelicious posted:All law is based on the ability to use, share, and threaten violence, what's your point? I've gotten very off track. I do not beleive filming Russian POW's is morally wrong, it humanizes them and demonstrates that they're not being mistreated. We live in an era of universal cameras. The legal basis as A.o.D pointed out is "What constitutes 'public curiosity'? ", which I would say these interviews generally don't. The LOAC and conventions exist retroactive to any action taken on the field, and the moral imperatives of a just military action exist separate from them. Lumping everything in the big war crimes bucket either doesn't do justice for the scope of actual atrocities being committed. There are a lot of loopholes and exceptions in the law because bombing cities to dust must be legally acceptable, even though morally that is awful. To follow the legalism path revisions to the law must occur so we can better retroactively define these things. In the meantime they exist as fine basis for conduct when on the ground you may not have such a clear moral compass.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:44
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slurm posted:I guess I'm just not ever going to understand why this stuff matters beyond the fact that abusing POWs and civilians is generally impractical and bad for the war effort. Like you can blow up a city full of civilians from the sky in the interests of "reducing/dehousing the defense workforce" and that's fine, but you can't make a propaganda video of a guy who's only being kept alive for his propaganda/exchange value anyway? FWIW, the blowing up cities to reduce the defense workforce thing is the stated reason why the US has not acceded to the International Criminal Court. As in "we know that city bombing was very much not fine, but we don't want our WWII generals getting prosecuted, so gently caress the rest of you". (Not sure which convention or law it might be prosecuted under, but it's tacitly acknowledged as a war crime.)
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Oct 7, 2022 17:48
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Lead out in cuffs posted:FWIW, the blowing up cities to reduce the defense workforce thing is the stated reason why the US has not acceded to the International Criminal Court. As in "we know that city bombing was very much not fine, but we don't want our WWII generals getting prosecuted, so gently caress the rest of you". That doesn't explain why the UK signed up, though. Bomber Harris is a whole damned meme.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:51
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Anyway fuckin Musk if true https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1578411903025836032?s=20&t=l4XJ7zmOCJE4KAis-4XIgQ
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Oct 7, 2022 17:57
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A.o.D. posted:That doesn't explain why the UK signed up, though. Bomber Harris is a whole damned meme. Yeah, I think it was even discussed prior to the Nuremburg/Tokyo Trials and in the post-war bombing analysis. I think the US not signing on to the ICC is more of the old "American Exceptionalism" and skepticism of international organizations. Edit: slurm posted:Anyway fuckin Musk if true The last thing I expected (or want) to see is NAFO and Muskies start a literal net war. BadOptics fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Oct 7, 2022 |
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Oct 7, 2022 17:59
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M_Gargantua posted:"What constitutes 'public curiosity'? " When people watch the WoT dude, do you think their first thought is, "Ahh. This reassures me that the Ukrainians are treating their prisoners well" or is it something more along the line of, "what a fuckin' goofball, and an egirl, too? LOL" That's making a prisoner a public curiosity.
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Oct 7, 2022 18:09
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slurm posted:Anyway fuckin Musk if true Yeah, also gently caress Musk generally, for good measure. He's a loving scumbag and one of the single largest benefactors of the current world order that nobody likes. He has the single largest interest in maintaining the status quo on the planet. His interests are almost certainly adverse to all of ours. Edit: W/R/T prisoners of war, lets not start justifying violations of international accords because we think it's funny or deserved or whatever. If those were American troops you would all be absolutely livid.
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Oct 7, 2022 18:10
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Grip it and rip it posted:Yeah, also gently caress Musk generally, for good measure. He's a loving scumbag and one of the single largest benefactors of the current world order that nobody likes. He has the single largest interest in maintaining the status quo on the planet. His interests are almost certainly adverse to all of ours. I just hope he's not indicative of a broader pivot in the US MIC etc
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Oct 7, 2022 18:11
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Grip it and rip it posted:Yeah, also gently caress Musk generally, for good measure. He's a loving scumbag and one of the single largest benefactors of the current world order that nobody likes. He has the single largest interest in maintaining the status quo on the planet. His interests are almost certainly adverse to all of ours. The current status quo is generally pretty good. Definitely there is room for improvement, but there are a lot more ways to increase human suffering than decrease it from where we are right now. For the first time in human history, a majority of people don't have to worry about feeding themselves and deaths from violence are at an all time low. The stuff that needs improvement is up Maslow's hierarchy of needs from bare survival, and it'd be pretty easy for us to get back to a place where survival is much more difficult to achieve.
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Oct 7, 2022 18:16
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wins32767 posted:The current status quo is generally pretty good. Definitely there is room for improvement, but there are a lot more ways to increase human suffering than decrease it from where we are right now. For the first time in human history, a majority of people don't have to worry about feeding themselves and deaths from violence are at an all time low. The stuff that needs improvement is up Maslow's hierarchy of needs from bare survival, and it'd be pretty easy for us to get back to a place where survival is much more difficult to achieve. None of that is a product of Musk's work or even work that took place during his lifetime. The status quo I was referring to is the information economy that has constructed a panopticon around consumers in order to more effectively force them to purchase products that are designed to be obsolete within a year or two while also squeezing every discretionary cent they can out of the working class through raised rents and food prices. The Neo-gilded age.
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Oct 7, 2022 18:22
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joat mon posted:When people watch the WoT dude, do you think their first thought is, "Ahh. This reassures me that the Ukrainians are treating their prisoners well" or is it something more along the line of, "what a fuckin' goofball, and an egirl, too? LOL" That's making a prisoner a public curiosity. I agree. However, I have a different view of the slightly older video of the Luhansk dude eating shawarma, even though the behavior of the Ukrainians in that video is a bit coarser.
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Oct 7, 2022 18:29
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slurm posted:Anyway fuckin Musk if true Not to defend Elon Musk (ugh) but it's possible it may have another explanation: quote:Roman Sinicyn, a co-ordinator at the Serhiy Prytula Charity, a foundation that donates Starlink systems to the Ukrainian armed forces, said the problem may be occurring because SpaceX was trying to prevent its misuse by Russian forces. https://www.ft.com/content/9a7b922b-2435-4ac7-acdb-0ec9a6dc8397
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Oct 7, 2022 18:40
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Edit: INCORRECT
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Oct 7, 2022 18:57
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BBC News - Ukraine war: Vladimir Putin gets a tractor for his 70th birthday https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63176124 In other news apparently Belarus thinks it is time Putin tried to horne in on the tractor game.
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Oct 7, 2022 19:25
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:Let he who has not given a pork MRE to a muslim throw the first stone. I handed a bunch of Otter pops to a local worker crew doing stuff on our pad on a hot day at FOB Warhorse once, and they very politely asked if they could switch out the pink ones for another flavor. I was happy to do it but afterward asked why, out of curiousity, and they all put their finger to squash their noises and make the oink oink sound.
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Oct 7, 2022 19:25
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mlmp08 posted:It's a very ethically bankrupt path of ends/means to go down instead of adhering, even during difficult times, to the rules and laws established during less difficult times. Weird how the uptick in this poo poo aligns with the repatriation of some of the Azov dudes.
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Oct 7, 2022 20:20
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Sir John Falstaff posted:Not to defend Elon Musk (ugh) but it's possible it may have another explanation: I have no interest in defending Musk either but I can't imagine he would openly get in bed with Putin given how much he depends on DoD funding.
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Oct 7, 2022 20:29
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Discussion Quorum posted:I have no interest in defending Musk either but I can't imagine he would openly get in bed with Putin given how much he depends on DoD funding. Isn’t he hanging out with a lot of republicans lately?
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Oct 7, 2022 20:47
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Discussion Quorum posted:I have no interest in defending Musk either but I can't imagine he would openly get in bed with Putin given how much he depends on DoD funding. He's a billionaire idiot tech bro high on his own supply 24/7/365, I can absolutely see him doing that because consequences are for the little people.
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Oct 7, 2022 20:48
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Wasabi the J posted:Weird how the uptick in this poo poo aligns with the repatriation of some of the Azov dudes. lol they're in Turkey
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Oct 7, 2022 21:00
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CommieGIR posted:Much like when Amnesty made that really lovely report about Ukraine, there will no doubt be plenty of time to investigate Ukrainian abuses, but they do not appear to be happening and anything that undermines Russian attempts to motivate their troops to fight without using combat is a win. Remember back around April a Ukrainian SF unit put out a statement that surrenders from artillery crews would no longer be accepted? And shortly after that the video of Russian POWs being shot in the legs and interrogated, with a later video of the same location showing burnt bodies? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_of_Russian_soldiers_in_Mala_Rohan Now, I hope the reaction to that has caused the Ukrainians to clean up their act, and it isn't just a case of them no longer recording their atrocities, but don't kid yourself that there aren't some sadists operating on the Ukrainian side too.
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Oct 7, 2022 21:07
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slurm posted:Anyway fuckin Musk if true Many people say Starlink’s long term sustainability plan is funding from DoD, but imagine putting a core component of your nation’s military infrastructure under the control of this guy.
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Oct 7, 2022 21:20
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in a well actually posted:Many people say Starlink’s long term sustainability plan is funding from DoD, but imagine putting a core component of your nation’s military infrastructure under the control of this guy. Musk being the middle man means the US gov has more deniability over what's being run over it. "It's not us, it's the guy with the twitter fetish" is a nice way to roll back a bit of the heat. Not much, because no one is really buying it, but it's still funny for the US gov to be pointing the finger at Musk. "That's the man you want! Right there!" With starlink domestic speeds dropping, he's probably more concerned with moving some back around to boost profitability now that he's buying the bird site.
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Oct 7, 2022 21:28
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