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Anno posted:Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone have advice for how to "get" deckbuilding roguelike games? I assume it's my unfamiliarity with any sort of the deck building game, but I have a really hard time parsing and feeling the weight of the frequent decisions all of the games seemingly want you to make. I feel like it should be the kind of game that really appeals to me but in my two tries so far (StS and Roguebook) I haven't been grabbed at all. And not like in an, "Oh I get it, but it's not for me" kind of way. There are different flavors of deckbuilders and it's possible to enjoy some and not the others. I actually don't enjoy StS for some reason, despite loving some of the other games in the genre. I would recommend trying Monster Train and the free Path of Champions mode in Legends of Runeterra to see if you enjoy either of these more.
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Oct 9, 2022 20:54
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Jack Trades posted:I had to recruit a friend that really likes Dominion and then have him backseat me until I understood how those games work. I guess that would be a good question - recommend a YouTube/Twitch person I could turn to! Quill18 is the reason I got into PDS games and RimWorld so I'm susceptible to an enthusiastic content creator showing me why something is cool. Megazver posted:the free Path of Champions mode in Legends of Runeterra to see if you enjoy either of these more. Oh I did play this a decent amount, too. I found it generally fun because I like Runeterra as like a game universe and the cards are fun to play, but I similarly never felt like I even came close to grokking the systems.
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Oct 9, 2022 21:04
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I haven't played Slay the Spire, but I played a couple of other deckbuilders so I can at least offer some really generic tips which could maybe help: * I'm generally a big fan of cards that you can only play under certain conditions, but give you bonus damage/statuses/etc. They let you either engage with whatever special mechanic the game has, or start building into synergies that make those "certain conditions" happen more often. * It's OK to have / take some cards that "are bad/impossible to play on earlier turns but are better/possible to play on later turns", but you don't want too many, or you run the risk of having a bad hand draw on turn 1. Generally a solid turn 1 where you either kill an enemy or at least improve your status/position is much more important than having some more efficient option down the line. * Statuses that "increase your damage modifier" (make you do more damage per hit) are generally worth investigating, especially if you can combine them with multiple-hit attacks. Whether cards that grant said "damage up" statuses are practical or not is going to say a lot about the design of the game. * Generally deckbuilders derived from Slay the Spire will have some basic "pay 1 action point to do N damage, no other effects" card, probably called "Strike" or similar; those are generally good cards to remove from your deck, so you can draw your more interesting / more efficient cards more often. * As you get more experience with whatever game you're playing, you'll have an idea of which enemies your deck can deal with easily and which enemies are consistently a problem; you can then try to build your deck in advance to better handle the problem enemies - whether it's more specialized attacks, improved action point generation/maximum, defensive options, etc. Trying to keep your deck size small will thereby make it so that you're more likely to draw your "problem enemy countermeasure" card sooner/more often. * Be careful about adding cards that redraw/search/peek - typically they have an action point cost associated with the redraw/search action, but there's also the opportunity cost of having drawn that redraw card instead of "the card you wanted", and thereby having fewer action points to spend on actually doing actions. I generally view them as a way of converting "extra" action points beyond what I feel like my hand usually needs to be played, into flexibility. So they're better later on in the game when I probably have more action points, than early on in the game when I might only have 3 or 4 or somesuch.
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Oct 9, 2022 21:15
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Anno posted:Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone have advice for how to "get" deckbuilding roguelike games? I assume it's my unfamiliarity with any sort of the deck building game, but I have a really hard time parsing and feeling the weight of the frequent decisions all of the games seemingly want you to make. I feel like it should be the kind of game that really appeals to me but in my two tries so far (StS and Roguebook) I haven't been grabbed at all. And not like in an, "Oh I get it, but it's not for me" kind of way. Focus on adding cards mindfully. Don't add a card unless it specifically fills a hole in what your deck is doing right now. When deciding on a card, you need to consider the following: Reliability: Every card added to your deck lowers the probability that an individual card will appear on a given turn. Therefore, hand-size or card draw is important! Additionally, decisions that REMOVE cards from your deck make every card remaining in your deck MORE likely to show up. This is why advice tends to favor "thin" focused decks. The smaller the proportion of cards you can choose from per turn, the less likely it is that you can predict/control what you will be able to do. Tempo: The rate at which the enemy or yourself is dying is ALWAYS important. Take note of how each card you add/remove/play will affect this tempo. At the same time, try to become familiar with rate that your opponent(s) are scaling as time goes on. If a monster does 10 damage per turn, and you have 100 hit points, if you did nothing, then you would die in 10 turns. If it does 5 damage, with +2 every turn, then you die in around 8 turns if nothing changes. If you need to pay "life" for tempo, consider how much damage you're taking vs how much you're mitigating by finishing the fight faster. You still win if you win the game with 1 life. Don't be too precious about it. Same goes for removing cards from your deck. If you are relying on a combo to win, then anything that gets that combo out on the board faster and more reliably is good. If a card forces you to discard, don't worry about this "disadvantage" if the effect is good enough to fill a hole you have right now. (Plus discarding can help control your hand content if there are negative cards that will have a negative effect) More actions are usually good, but taking more than one card to do the same effect is often the wrong choice. This is especially true if getting rid of cards is difficult or expensive. Be wary of "dead" cards. Not only do a lot of deckbuilders have the idea of negative cards that either just take up space and deny you a card or ALSO do negative things to you. However, also make sure that you limit how much "speculative" buying you do. Some cards are designed to be very powerful in specific situations. Try to figure out how often you're likely to hit those situations, or how "easy" it will be to add a way to guarantee the situation arises. (Don't take the zombie killer card unless you are guaranteed to fight zombies for the rest of the game, or if you already have/have a good chance of finding a way of turning your opponents into zombies). For STS in particular, my advice is to play more aggressively in the earlier game than it looks like it wants you to (several act 1 elites and 2/3 of the bosses actively punish slow play). Anyway, look for the specific thread on that one.
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Oct 9, 2022 21:27
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Anno posted:Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone have advice for how to "get" deckbuilding roguelike games? I assume it's my unfamiliarity with any sort of the deck building game, but I have a really hard time parsing and feeling the weight of the frequent decisions all of the games seemingly want you to make. I feel like it should be the kind of game that really appeals to me but in my two tries so far (StS and Roguebook) I haven't been grabbed at all. And not like in an, "Oh I get it, but it's not for me" kind of way. This youtube playlist might help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NZ-evCvk9s
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Oct 9, 2022 22:27
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The biggest tip that helped me learn StS was not to be scared of elite fights. You should seek as many out as you can until the 3rd area, where you should avoid them. No matter how your health or your deck looks, you can usually take them. They're a great source of power scaling. Also as an alternate game, Monster Train is so much fun, but it took me like twice as long to 'get' it.
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Oct 9, 2022 22:28
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fez_machine posted:This youtube playlist might help:
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Oct 9, 2022 22:40
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Anno posted:Maybe a dumb question, but does anyone have advice for how to "get" deckbuilding roguelike games? I assume it's my unfamiliarity with any sort of the deck building game, but I have a really hard time parsing and feeling the weight of the frequent decisions all of the games seemingly want you to make. I feel like it should be the kind of game that really appeals to me but in my two tries so far (StS and Roguebook) I haven't been grabbed at all. And not like in an, "Oh I get it, but it's not for me" kind of way. Maybe playing a deckbuilder boardgame like Star Realms, Ascension or Dominions would help too? They have (sometimes a free) digital version. Or there is Board Game Arena if you have an account. I can open a table of any game you want. I've been playing card games for so long, it's hard to recreate the beginner viewpoint I never truly had. But yes, I second what was said about tempo and reliability. Question: is it just the deckbuilding card games, or is it any kind of card games you have trouble with?
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Oct 9, 2022 22:46
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Yeah, Dominion is pretty easy to grok and is a good way to get a feel for general deckbuilder concepts, even if the mechanics are radically different from StS and its descendants.
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Oct 9, 2022 22:48
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Loddfafnir posted:Question: is it just the deckbuilding card games, or is it any kind of card games you have trouble with? To reiterate, I’m dumb: what’s an example of a not-deck building card game? I think every (video game) I’ve played with cards has some aspect of acquiring new cards/enhancing old ones etc. Are there ones where you’re just given a deck and you don’t ever change it? Now that I think about it more I think I cant currently appreciate new/stronger cards as a form of progression. Are there any other games like Rogue Book that have avatars on the battlefield that attack via cards? I think having a little guy on the field that does the attacks and has a card-personality might grab me more than choosing a class that defines my playstyle or whatever. Or is Rogue Book generally considered a good one of those?
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Oct 9, 2022 23:13
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I think something like star realms or dominion is actually super ideal for learning deckbuilding basics because a problem with the learning curve of games like slay the spire is that the feedback loops of reward and punishment are so delayed and slow. You can very conceivably make terrible choices right out of the gate in act1 of StS and still slog through a bunch of fights before dying of attrition 30+ minutes later, and when that happens it won't be obvious at all which choices were wrong. Comparitively, you can knock out matches of dominion or whatever in like 5 minutes a pop, and that faster iteration helps to internalize the absolute fundamentals like "card removal is strong," "adding new cards doesn't always improve your deck," etc.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:22
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Anno posted:To reiterate, I’m dumb: what’s an example of a not-deck building card game? I think every (video game) I’ve played with cards has some aspect of acquiring new cards/enhancing old ones etc. Are there ones where you’re just given a deck and you don’t ever change it? Deckbuilding usually (or maybe just originally) refers to having a single set of cards that is your deck, and having to modify it by adding, removing, or changing cards permanently, you don't have a separate box to keep them in. A few games like Vault of the Void buck the trend and still call themselves deckbuilders but that's how I usually think of them. The genre started with physical cards and used the term to differentiate between themselves and CCGs, where you build a collection of cards, AFAIK. Mithross fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Oct 9, 2022 |
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Oct 9, 2022 23:27
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yeah I guess library of ruina is more a ccg
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Oct 9, 2022 23:32
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"Permanently" here meaning "for the length of the game". Adding a card to your deck in dominion is a lot less permanent than adding one to your magic the gathering collection. In MTG you actually got a new card that you now own, in Dominion the box set already came with all the cards and you just put it into your deck for the duration of a play session until you win or lose.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:34
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Ah that’s interesting. I guess I never would’ve thought of them as different subgenres. Out of curiosity are there many CCG roguelikes? Building a big stash of cards over the course of a campaign or something might be a more standard progression hook that I could better understand.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:35
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Yeah, I think a large part of the distinction is that in a CCG like MtG, you build your deck before the game starts and it remains static throughout the game; in a deckbuilder, a large part of the game is editing your deck as the game progresses, which usually means not just adding new cards to it but also removing cards that you started with but which don't synergize with the way your deck is turning out. This also means that these edits are in-game actions you pay some sort of cost for -- maybe there is a limited number of card adds/removals you can perform, maybe they cost money, etc. It's also common that the cards drawn : deck size ratio is high enough that it's possible to go through your entire deck, sometimes multiple times, in a single encounter. To return to Star Realms as an example, your starting deck is a collection of fairly weak cards that synergize with nothing; as soon as you figure out what you're actually doing with your deck, dumpstering those starting cards becomes a very high priority. Contrast something like Shandalar or Etherlords where you can freely edit your deck between matches using your entire collection as a basis. Anno posted:Ah that’s interesting. I guess I never would’ve thought of them as different subgenres. Magic the Gathering: Shandalar (the 90s Microprose game) in ironman mode?  There's probably a better answer out there, but I don't know it offhand. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Oct 9, 2022 |
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Oct 9, 2022 23:38
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I think the basics only get you so far in sts, you also need to learn which thresholds you need to reach and elite/boss patterns/requirements imo Playing a lot of sts is probably the best way to get better at sts
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Oct 9, 2022 23:43
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Anno posted:Out of curiosity are there many CCG roguelikes? Building a big stash of cards over the course of a campaign or something might be a more standard progression hook that I could better understand. Only recent CCG card game I can think of is Inscryption (It's a deck builder in Act 1, but trasitions to a CCG in Act 2) - but that transition also marks it transitioning away from most of the roguelike elements as well. Although if you're only just starting to get into Deck Builders I think Inscryption is still probably a pretty good place to start. Strong narrative and atmosphere, fairly simply mechanics with plenty of broken power combos to stumble onto and experience the joy of breaking the game over your knee. I know several people who started getting into Deck Builders because Inscryption helped them find the fun, as you say, in this kind of gameplay.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:48
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Anno posted:Ah that’s interesting. I guess I never would’ve thought of them as different subgenres. Try Steamworld Quest, it might be more your speed. A card-ey game with that kind of combat, but not a roguelike.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:59
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an iksar marauder posted:I think the basics only get you so far in sts, you also need to learn which thresholds you need to reach and elite/boss patterns/requirements imo I won literally my first ever blind run of StS. Not that some luck wasn't involved but ascension 0 has enough leeway that deckbuilding basics from playing dominion were enough.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:05
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You don’t see more traditional collectible card games in roguelike card games because of the length. The community has settled on an average run length less than two hours for games influenced by Rogue, with the main exceptions being traditional roguelikes and games with similar structure but different historical roots (like 4X games). 2 hours is just not long enough for a CCG to be interesting, but it’s more than long enough for a deckbuilder.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:28
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Metal Gear Ac!d: Roguelike when?
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Oct 10, 2022 00:34
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that is a question i have been asking for a period of time now
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Oct 10, 2022 00:41
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nrook posted:You don’t see more traditional collectible card games in roguelike card games because of the length. The community has settled on an average run length less than two hours for games influenced by Rogue, with the main exceptions being traditional roguelikes and games with similar structure but different historical roots (like 4X games). 2 hours is just not long enough for a CCG to be interesting, but it’s more than long enough for a deckbuilder. See I would've assumed it would be a metaprogression thing. Start with 30 out of 150 cards, die, unlock 4 more or w/e, try again with new/better cards etc. until you win.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:49
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Anno posted:See I would've assumed it would be a metaprogression thing. Start with 30 out of 150 cards, die, unlock 4 more or w/e, try again with new/better cards etc. until you win. Card Quest and Loop Hero both work kinda like this. In CQ your deck is based on what items you have equipped, and you unlock new equipment by clearing new areas (even if you don't finish the run). In LH, IIRC, each building you construct back at base unlocks new cards and you build a deck from them before starting a run. ToxicFrog fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Oct 10, 2022 |
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Oct 10, 2022 01:06
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If you're looking for grinding and meta-progression then Loop Hero is perfect for you.
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Oct 10, 2022 01:12
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I don't have strong feelings on metaprogression either way, it just seemed like something I thought would make "sense" as a progression system. I do own Loop Hero I think through some kind of bundle so I'll check it out.
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Oct 10, 2022 01:22
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I think it’s actually just too much progression: if you’re going to let the player collect cards and choose initial loadouts, you might as well fix the challenges and make the game not have roguelike elements.
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Oct 10, 2022 01:25
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Jack Trades posted:If you're looking for grinding and meta-progression then Loop Hero is perfect for you. Yeah I actually hated Loop Hero, but it is an example of a "CCG-like rogueli*e where metaprogression unlocks more cards for you to build a deck from"
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Oct 10, 2022 01:45
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Anno posted:To reiterate, I’m dumb: what’s an example of a not-deck building card game? I think every (video game) I’ve played with cards has some aspect of acquiring new cards/enhancing old ones etc. Are there ones where you’re just given a deck and you don’t ever change it? One way to look at it is that you're not picking individual cards so much as you're building your deck like it's an engine. You're adding/removing/swapping out parts to make your engine run smoother/faster/etc. I generally think it's more fun to focus on your deck than on your cards because its random whether a singular card even helps you, but you tap your deck every turn so how well it plays overall really matters.
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Oct 10, 2022 01:52
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I think the reason most run-based card games have settled on permanent addition/removal over an inventory or side deck is that it means the player is making a smaller number of more impactful decisions. Well-designed ones can also use it as a gameplay challenge, i.e. you want to take enough cards to survive Act 1 but not bloat your deck so much that it can't run its engine in Act 3
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Oct 10, 2022 02:36
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Or maybe try Across the Obelisk with a skilled friend and chat as you play.
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Oct 10, 2022 02:44
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Phigs posted:One way to look at it is that you're not picking individual cards so much as you're building your deck like it's an engine. You're adding/removing/swapping out parts to make your engine run smoother/faster/etc. I think another possible missing piece of the puzzle for people new to these games (and their inspirations like Dominion, Ascension, etc) is that you're rarely playing with a 60 card deck like Magic the Gathering or something. You've often got a much smaller deck (more like 15 cards) and played cards are usually shuffled back in and redrawn multiple times over the course of a game. It varies game-to-game of course but this is where building the "engine" comes in, and why making just a small adjustment like adding or removing a card can have a big impact on the effects your deck can produce.
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Oct 10, 2022 03:14
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Jack Trades posted:Metal Gear Ac!d: Roguelike when? There is Fights in Tight Spaces, which mechanically does have "some cards are used to move, others are used to attack/defend, your positioning/range matters", but it's a bit too grounded to be Metal Gear flavored. A deckbuilder with the infiltration or "weird military technology" aspects of Metal Gear would be pretty neat.
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Oct 10, 2022 03:27
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I considered making a thread for deckbuilder games before, but I think I psyched myself out trying to make an all-inclusive OP and never got around to it. Do you think there'd be enough demand for that to sustain a thread about it specifically?
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Oct 10, 2022 03:27
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goferchan posted:I think another possible missing piece of the puzzle for people new to these games (and their inspirations like Dominion, Ascension, etc) is that you're rarely playing with a 60 card deck like Magic the Gathering or something. You've often got a much smaller deck (more like 15 cards) and played cards are usually shuffled back in and redrawn multiple times over the course of a game. It varies game-to-game of course but this is where building the "engine" comes in, and why making just a small adjustment like adding or removing a card can have a big impact on the effects your deck can produce. This is one of the reasons that Dominion is a good introduction, because it lets you iterate through several shuffles of your deck and get a feel for how it evolves with new cards. In StS most fights don't get much past the first shuffle (often ending before you even get there) so you're constantly starting with a fresh deck and don't get the nice clear flow you get in Dominion.
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Oct 10, 2022 03:32
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There have been a bunch of new deckbuilders released recently but most if not all of them also fall under the roguelite umbrella. And any game big enough to dominate talk here just gets its own thread anyway so I dunno!
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Oct 10, 2022 03:32
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Inadequately posted:I considered making a thread for deckbuilder games before, but I think I psyched myself out trying to make an all-inclusive OP and never got around to it. Do you think there'd be enough demand for that to sustain a thread about it specifically? I mean I'm making one so I wouldn't mind more reference material There are so many shovel tier slay the spire clones out there and vanishingly few games trying to do something different
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Oct 10, 2022 03:56
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Deckbuilders are just hard to design. The vast majority of the board game ones are bad versions of Dominion, so it’s no surprise most of the video game takes are bad versions of Slay the Spire (or its predecessors).
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Oct 10, 2022 05:23
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nrook posted:Deckbuilders are just hard to design. The vast majority of the board game ones are bad versions of Dominion, so it’s no surprise most of the video game takes are bad versions of Slay the Spire (or its predecessors). Yeah I basically agree. Still think StS is kind of the masterclass of the genre as far as skill ceiling and replayability, although there are definitely other ones I've enjoyed. Could basically say the exact same thing about Dominion lol
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Oct 10, 2022 05:29
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