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DemoneeHo posted:It's been a hot 13 years since i last played P4. But nooooooo, they didnt put this line in there, did they? That wasn't a meme in 2008 nor 2011 or whenever golden came out so dunno how or why that was in the pc release unless nikkolas was using some sort of mod that also added that in as a meme without telling him.
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Oct 10, 2022 23:25
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Ibram Gaunt posted:That wasn't a meme in 2008 nor 2011 or whenever golden came out so dunno how or why that was in the pc release unless nikkolas was using some sort of mod that also added that in as a meme without telling him. There is an UwU mod, apparently... NikkolasKing posted:I was watching a streamer play Silent Hill 3 and as an anime watcher and Japanese video game player for 20 years now, I can't help but feel these quotes were pure, raw, distilled examples of what drat near every anime and JRPG says: I mean, part of it is because Buddhism is big in Japan and "let go of earthly suffering" is a core tenet to it... but like, death is the universal theme for the human race. The original P3 OP was filled with stuff from worldwide philosophers. And unless you believe in the afterlife... there's not much to do with it.
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Oct 10, 2022 23:39
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neonchameleon posted:Persona 4 was clearly written by a conservative whose underlying moral of all the character arcs was "stay in your place" with all the character arcs except one being from unhappy in their appointed place to knuckling down and now being happy in their appointed place. (This of course is why Kanji and Naoto are so botched). Persona 5 reads like that same writer was struck by the revelation that the system wasn't the best possible thing and so wanted to write about rebels but didn't have a clue how to rebel and their triumph is restoring the status quo. P5 is conservative for its themes but it isn't quite back to status quo. Even ignoring the overt supernatural stuff they took down a corrupt prime minister and set things up so he actually gets a legitimate trial instead of just being let off. Considering the events of *waves hand at the world*, "a corrupt politician is actually punished for his crimes" can be at least an enjoyable fantasy. P5's biggest flaw is that its message ends up being "Children should not be the ones responsible for fixing this hosed up world, adults shouldn't be foisting their problems onto children" but ends up feeling kind of eh because the solutions are slow and prone to failure as opposed to the Phantom Thieves who were basically instantly able to gently caress poo poo up. Especially since otherwise the theme of the game is "It is wrong to accept things being terrible just because that is how they always are, the ennui of the average person is what lets these things go unchecked." They really could have fixed a lot by just not having Sae go "let us take care of it now" over and over but more strongly emphasizing that the Thieves lost their powers but they're still going to speak out against injustice however they can. (With the ending of everyone coming together to undo an injustice being a 'here is just one example.') But Sae kinda sours it and makes it into "We'll take of stuff kids, go back to school" which is probably not the intended message but is certainly the one it comes across as. And of course that's not counting the fact that it's got a lot of its own biases in play so you get "it's wrong to not speak out against injustices" in the same game with crappy homophobic/transphobic jokes. NikkolasKing posted:"Death, suffering, and pain ae inevitable facts of life, just deal with it" is in so many things. I mean they are. Nothing you do can stop it nor will ever stop it. If you allow that to dominate your life then you just waste what you have worrying about the end that's coming no matter what. "Death is scary, holy poo poo I don't want to die, I'd do ANYTHING not to die" is both an understandable motivation and not a very healthy one ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 00:08
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As lovely as The Answer is, mechanically, I still maintain that it has a good idea buried somewhere in there. The big Question of Persona 3 is "Memento Mori", or, how do you deal with the inevitable knowledge that you and everyone you know is going to die? And the answer in the Answer ( ) is "live anyways."Memento mori, memento vivere. Remember death, remember life. Or, more poetically, remember you will die, but do not forget to live.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:19
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girl dick energy posted:As lovely as The Answer is, mechanically, I still maintain that it has a good idea buried somewhere in there. The big Question of Persona 3 is "Memento Mori", or, how do you deal with the inevitable knowledge that you and everyone you know is going to die? And the answer in the Answer ( The idea of seeing how the characters responded to the events at the end of the game is a neat one but it really gets too buried under the rest of the cruft. Like even having Aigis take over as protagonist would be fine but I think P4 and P5 had a better idea for adding on by working it into an expansion of the daily life instead of it being entirely disconnected.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:23
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ImpAtom posted:I mean they are. Nothing you do can stop it nor will ever stop it. If you allow that to dominate your life then you just waste what you have worrying about the end that's coming no matter what. "Death is scary, holy poo poo I don't want to die, I'd do ANYTHING not to die" is both an understandable motivation and not a very healthy one But it's more than a bit repetitive. Villain: I want to change the world and improve the human situation. Hero: But we can't change and so I must stop you. This is in so many games and anime. I don't know if it's the start of this but obviously Neon Genesis Evangelion was a massive influence on all subsequent Japanese pop media and I think it's safe to say it laid the groundwork for this basic idea. "I mustn't run away." I must reject Instrumentality and accept that to be human is to be alone and to suffer. It just be nice if the heroes for once wanted to usher in a better world instead of doggedly holding onto this one. (I've heard the new stuff in Royal tackles some of this and in a much more satisfying way than the main story handles its ideas.)
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Oct 11, 2022 00:32
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Think you got some weird reads of Evangelion.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:35
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I do not know how to tell you this but the Tang is bad, instrumentality is bad, at everyone who wants it is wrong.
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Oct 11, 2022 00:36
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Asuka is on the beach with him
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Oct 11, 2022 00:38
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Every superhero fantasy requires its superheroes to uphold the status quo. Take down a few Okumuras but definitely don't go asking where Okumuras come from or why there so many of them. The stuff going on in his palace was objectively shown as being awful and yet none of it was illegal. They had to shoehorn in something about how he was having his competitors assassinated. Why didn't he just buy them out? Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 00:38
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NikkolasKing posted:But it's more than a bit repetitive. It's in a ton of stuff. "Death is an omnipresent force, what do you do in response to it" is the basis of countless movies, books, songs, everything. Death is the one great unifier of humanity, the one thing we all share no matter what, and many stories are told in response to that. It shows up really often because of that. It's also most certainly not something Evangelion invented. It has existed in Japanese media and non-Japanese media for most of human history. Sapozhnik posted:Every superhero fantasy requires its superheroes to uphold the status quo. Take down a few Okumuras but definitely don't go asking where Okumuras come from or why there so many of them. I mean I don't think you need to have it explained why a rich person would choose a path that doesn't cost them money over one that does. But past a certain point the core problem of any game like this is that you're left trying to argue for status quo + better because video game writers are certainly not going to be the ones who figure out some way to show the complete destruction of capitalism and its replacement by something better in any plausible way. Like Devil Survivor has a "everyone gets along super communism yay" ending but it's absolutely barebones and involved rewriting all of humanity. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 00:45
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if i was about to die i would simply challenge the grim reaper to a game of chess
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Oct 11, 2022 00:47
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Look where that got Bill and Ted
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Oct 11, 2022 00:48
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i think that theres def a lot of stuff where the solution is "hey the status quo is Poggles" but, i think that counter read of "sometimes its good to change the status quo" kind of falls apart when its applied to more fantastical spiritualish stuff, like death or instrumentality
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Oct 11, 2022 00:53
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if i was about to die, i would simply challenge death to a game of who can beat persona 5 first and then run away while hes playing a 100 hour jrpg
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Oct 11, 2022 00:54
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ImpAtom posted:But past a certain point the core problem of any game like this is that you're left trying to argue for status quo + better because video game writers are certainly not going to be the ones who figure out some way to show the complete destruction of capitalism and its replacement by something better in any plausible way. Like Devil Survivor has a "everyone gets along super communism yay" ending but it's absolutely barebones and involved rewriting all of humanity. ronaldos a dummy and kind of a jerk iirc but if u can stomach mass brainwashing then i guess his ends, p good u could really apply this to most of smt too but then that still kind of ties back into the "status quo is pog/status quo is fail actually" reads falling apart once its on a more fantastical scale
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Oct 11, 2022 00:55
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Hellioning posted:I do not know how to tell you this but the Tang is bad, instrumentality is bad, at everyone who wants it is wrong. It's literally a bunch of weird old dudes trying to turn themselves into gods at the expense of literally all other forms of life. And also Gendo trying to bang his wife one last time at the expense of all other forms of life. Yes that is indeed changing the status quo but it's not actually better.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:00
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Funky Valentine posted:It's literally a bunch of weird old dudes trying to turn themselves into gods at the expense of literally all other forms of life. And also Gendo trying to bang his wife one last time at the expense of all other forms of life. it also mushes everyones souls into one too afaik?? which sounds like it'd be nice... for all of 2 seconds
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Oct 11, 2022 01:01
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Booky posted:it also mushes everyones souls into one too afaik?? which sounds like it'd be nice... for all of 2 seconds Yeah. The basic idea is that it would destroy all bounderies between people, eliminating any sort of miscommunication, lack of understanding, all the actual difficult complexities of social interaction and interacting with other people, and you just kept to be part of an amalgamation where you don't suffer or feel bad anymore. It just involves giving up literally everything that makes you you. Which is why Shinji, the dude who is basically the #1 test case for "I would actually really like to become tang, thanks" choosing to reject it is the end of his character growth because he decides to return to the hosed up world where he can hurt and be hurt rather than deciding to throw himself into the humanity slurry.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:04
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Booky posted:ronaldos a dummy and kind of a jerk iirc but if u can stomach mass brainwashing then i guess his ends, p good Something I found notable about DeSu 2 is that it isn't really brainwashing. Look at Strange Journey - that is absolutely brainwashing because the world is continuing on normally unless you help the Wise Men or Mem Aleph and subjugate everyone. In DeSu 2, it's a pretty big, explicit plot point that everyone in the world is dead by the ending except you and the dozen other survivors. So you aren't brainwashing the human race as the human race no longer exists. You're more recreating them with an increased or decreased sense of empathy. I thought it was a notable difference, anyway.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:08
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Persona 6 will feature a penguin sidekick that everyone loves but vanishes halfway through the story and the story is noticeably worse without him.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:08
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NikkolasKing posted:Something I found notable about DeSu 2 is that it isn't really brainwashing. Look at Strange Journey - that is absolutely brainwashing because the world is continuing on normally unless you help the Wise Men or Mem Aleph and subjugate everyone. In DeSu 2, it's a pretty big, explicit plot point that everyone in the world is dead by the ending except you and the dozen other survivors. So you aren't brainwashing the human race as the human race no longer exists. You're more recreating them with an increased or decreased sense of empathy. i would say thats still, kind of brainwashyish, like 7/10 like ur still forcing random (soon to be revived) people to think in whatever way u want even if its just tweaking the empathy values here and there
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Oct 11, 2022 01:10
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NikkolasKing posted:Something I found notable about DeSu 2 is that it isn't really brainwashing. Look at Strange Journey - that is absolutely brainwashing because the world is continuing on normally unless you help the Wise Men or Mem Aleph and subjugate everyone. In DeSu 2, it's a pretty big, explicit plot point that everyone in the world is dead by the ending except you and the dozen other survivors. So you aren't brainwashing the human race as the human race no longer exists. You're more recreating them with an increased or decreased sense of empathy. It's still brainwashing if you bring them back to life first. In fact I am like 90% sure this is something JRPGs have firmly come down on the side of.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:16
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Booky posted:i would say thats still, kind of brainwashyish, like 7/10 ImpAtom posted:It's still brainwashing if you bring them back to life first. In fact I am like 90% sure this is something JRPGs have firmly come down on the side of. Fair enough. I guess there's always Anguished One's route. He just starts the human social evolutionary process over again. Our fundamental natures aren't changed like with Ronaldo or Yamato but since he hit the reset button, we can make totally different decisions in how we develop as a species. We could develop into the Star Trek Federation or the Klingons but it's all up to us. So it's a route that is heroic and still involves big, big change.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:23
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ImpAtom posted:Yes and no. Ooof that's pretty rough. obviously not going to skip it but was hoping for a step up. Hopefully the new director can give it a fresh direction in 6, maybe ditch highschool.
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Oct 11, 2022 05:23
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Dawgstar posted:It's really weird how 5 went so hard on that when as I recall in 4 what looked like was going to happen was just a fake out with the Devil contact and in 3 when the teacher found out that it was the MC she nearly collapsed in on herself like a dying star in embarrassment. DemoneeHo posted:It's been a hot 13 years since i last played P4. But nooooooo, they didnt put this line in there, did they? NikkolasKing posted:You're not the first or even second person who insists this wasn't in original P4 but I've only played Golden so I can't say. It's def in the PC version of Golden, though. This cannot be -- people on a Persona thread unknowing of the Endurance Run: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5iE37INc0o&t=444s Persona 4 in its original glory: 
Flair fucked around with this message at 05:43 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 05:35
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The nude modelling scene in Persona 5 seems like it would be bad but it actually owns because the guy asking for it doesn't know what sex is and the girl being asked and her friends react in the most idiotic way at every point.
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Oct 11, 2022 05:50
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It's mostly that it's incredibly badly timed, immediately after an arc that involved the same girl getting sexually harassed. Without that it'd had been fine for the most part, the dozens of layers of clothes to stall for time gag is genuinely funny. I'd say the first arc is so grounded and has a tone so different from the rest that it's possible they were written so far apart nobody really connected the dots about how bad it blended together until it was too late in production. Not that I think anyone lost any sleep because of that.
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Oct 11, 2022 10:48
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We know the story went through multiple rewrites, there's evidence the animated scenes were done before the script had been finalized (the airplane and desert scenes were probably meant to be Actually Egypt since the Thieves originally were gonna travel around the world) so the starting arc not meshing well with the rest could be more evidence of that.
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Oct 11, 2022 12:21
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The scenario of the Phantom Thieves keeping their identities secrets while their out of Japan excursions coincide with new high profile missions would have been funny. "Yeah Akechi, the first Calling Card was dropped at our school and now there are new ones on the other side of the world right when we also happen to be there, what of it?" 
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Oct 11, 2022 18:04
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:We know the story went through multiple rewrites, there's evidence the animated scenes were done before the script had been finalized (the airplane and desert scenes were probably meant to be Actually Egypt since the Thieves originally were gonna travel around the world) so the starting arc not meshing well with the rest could be more evidence of that. Even that doesn't make sense because those cutscenes show them driving around in their living Morgana van which prolapses its anus to catch the squad tumbling out of the dungeon at the end of the mission. Unless they originally said eh screw it, persona powers and other paranormal poo poo work in the real world now. if i were creating an eagerly-anticipated high-budget next instalment in a hit game series then i would simply write a complete draft of the story and characters before i spent millions of dollars on the story's animated cutscenes
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Oct 11, 2022 18:16
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They probably did do that, they just had to scrap their plans.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:20
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Arist posted:They probably did do that, they just had to scrap their plans. Yeah, a lot of things get changed in production. Stuff like expensive CGI or animated cutscenes just tend to be the most obvious relics because they are too costly to just throw away
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Oct 11, 2022 18:22
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:We know the story went through multiple rewrites, there's evidence the animated scenes were done before the script had been finalized (the airplane and desert scenes were probably meant to be Actually Egypt since the Thieves originally were gonna travel around the world) so the starting arc not meshing well with the rest could be more evidence of that. That and the very out of place desert town during Futabas palace. Seems in general that the desert was one of the earliest places developed. The boss was a more internally-focused antagonist like Persona 4, even.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:48
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I have forgotten about that. That does explain a few things.
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Oct 12, 2022 03:34
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All of the palaces aside from Okumura's wouldn't have looked out of place in a theoretical worldwide jaunt so I'm not surprised that was the original plan.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:34
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anakha posted:All of the palaces aside from Okumura's wouldn't have looked out of place in a theoretical worldwide jaunt so I'm not surprised that was the original plan. Clearly a stop during the world tour was The Moon.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:36
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Persona 5 proves that space is not, in fact, the last place not corrupted by capitalism.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:51
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Funky Valentine posted:Clearly a stop during the world tour was The Moon. Wouldn't even be the first Atlus game to randomly throw in space travel for no reason. And like, not as a plot point or anything special, it's just There.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:58
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Fuckin' hyped at the thought of playing some P5R two weeks from now and then having to make the TOUGH CHOICE on whether to keep playing it or start playing the new Pokemon a month later.
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Oct 12, 2022 07:30
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