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Fuschia tude posted:Just like half of your synopsis No sorry, a whole bunch of other insane poo poo happens in Chapterhouse.
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Oct 7, 2022 13:16
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!Klams posted:I take your point, but, most of these concepts are built up over many books. Multi-Duncan, 'Rakis getting blown up, Atreides mega-genes, No-Ships, Bene Gesserit political dominance, all of that stuff is absolutely earned over the course of like 5 books. I mean sure some of it sounds dumb in a vacuum. Jewmanji posted:No sorry, a whole bunch of other insane poo poo happens in Chapterhouse. Even if we assume that KJA based part of the plot of the two books that don't exist on notes by Frank Herbert that Brian Herbert supposedly found, something I've called into question before, the facile and low-effort way it's shoe-horned to fit in with what got written as supposed prequels just doesn't compare.
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Oct 7, 2022 14:57
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Living his best life that episode of Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee where Seinfeld goes over and watches TV with those two was so awesome.
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Oct 7, 2022 15:22
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!Klams posted:I take your point, but, most of these concepts are built up over many books. Yeah I was mostly just being flip and saying that Heretics and Chapterhouse jump the shark pretty badly too. I've never read a KJA/BHA and I don't doubt they are abominations (the bad kind). BlankSystemDaemon posted:As "early" as God-Emperor of Dune, Norma Cenva is hinted at given that Leto II monologues about her and how it was her that invented everything Holtzman got his name on. I'm not sure what your point is either. Maybe we're just misunderstanding each other. I was just making a silly joke about the bracing mediocrity of Heretics/Chapterhouse.
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Oct 7, 2022 17:26
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Jewmanji posted:I'm not sure what your point is either. Maybe we're just misunderstanding each other. I was just making a silly joke about the bracing mediocrity of Heretics/Chapterhouse. It's a pity, too - because you can still see the shape of a good series buried in there.
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Oct 7, 2022 18:25
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stop after
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Oct 7, 2022 23:23
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Skip Children of Dune but read to god emperor
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Oct 7, 2022 23:30
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Only read that handout they gave in theaters for Lynch’s Dune.
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Oct 7, 2022 23:44
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Read all of them, even the failson's, OD on ultraspice, become invisible to prescience.
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Oct 8, 2022 00:05
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SixFigureSandwich posted:On amazon 15 years ago For a lark, I looked up the Amazon invoice for my copy of the encyclopedia. $28, back in 2012. along with Doon for 4 bucks
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Oct 8, 2022 14:22
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Cheap Trick posted:For a lark, I looked up the Amazon invoice for my copy of the encyclopedia. Ha, I looked up mine and in 2009 I paid £11,41 including shipping to someone with a Wanadoo.fr email address
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Oct 8, 2022 16:58
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SixFigureSandwich posted:Ha, I looked up mine and in 2009 I paid £11,41 including shipping to someone with a Wanadoo.fr email address je suis profondément émue !
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Oct 8, 2022 17:05
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Riot Bimbo posted:Skip Children of Dune but read to god emperor this is wrong. The end of Children is epic
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Oct 8, 2022 18:06
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Children is overly maligned, I feel. It's nowhere near as good as the preceding or succeeding novels, but it's much, much, much better than Heretics and Chapterhouse
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Oct 8, 2022 18:17
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Barry Foster posted:It's nowhere near as good as the preceding or succeeding novels, but it's much, much, much better than Heretics and Chapterhouse I'll at least agree with this, but I still really dislike the book.
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Oct 8, 2022 21:44
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Why the gently caress would you skip books from a good author? Read all Frank Dune and be happy
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Oct 8, 2022 23:01
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I must be the only person who actually really liked the last 2. I enjoyed seeing the internal sisterhood stuff, the vignettes are some of the best in the series, and I for one have used the phrase "real boats rock" in a work meeting.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:17
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exmachina posted:I must be the only person who actually really liked the last 2. I enjoyed seeing the internal sisterhood stuff, the vignettes are some of the best in the series, and I for one have used the phrase "real boats rock" in a work meeting. I love Heretics. It’s the first book since the original where it feels like Herbert had fun writing it, and as far as being an enjoyable read, it’s probably my favorite after the original. But Chapterhouse was a disappointment to me. It’s a downer of a book and feels like too much of a direct sequel to Heretics. None of the other Dune books follow each other so closely, they’ve all got a handy time skip of 10-5000 years so the author could set up the story he really wanted to tell, and this feels just like follow-up on Heretics that should have been gotten through in a few pages so we could jump to the bildungsroman of one naive young virgin of prophecy in the Honored Matre Sex Imperium a century after the conquest or whatever. Doesn’t help that it goes right to a cliffhanger and no more books were ever written. Also Tar and Dar’s insane maxims should be excerpted into collections for white collar head cases to read in airports, like Sun Tzu.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:32
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I'm sure Frank was trying to make a point about the Tleilaxu being some stupid paper tiger, but it was so disappointing how cool the world building of the Tleilaxu culture was at the beginning of Heretics and then it's just the dumb Waff stuff afterwards.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:47
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It definitely suffers from the cliffhanger ending.
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Oct 9, 2022 00:50
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https://twitter.com/retroscifiart/status/1579243325353496579
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Oct 10, 2022 01:45
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exmachina posted:I must be the only person who actually really liked the last 2. I enjoyed seeing the internal sisterhood stuff, the vignettes are some of the best in the series, and I for one have used the phrase "real boats rock" in a work meeting. Ah, I really liked the last two. I think it definitely helped that I had a big gap between the first 4 and the last 2, so them feeling 'separate' worked quite well for me. I thought it was clever coming up with the idea of 'watchdogs' so that even in a 'friendly' environment there was still a constant need for doublespeak and wheels within wheels etc. I think I'm kind of biased because I massively appreciate competent characters and can't really stand when tension is created from incompetence. Also the tension that drives the plot is mostly between fairly convivial characters, the Bene Gesserit's compelling Teg to act, Teg compelling Duncan, etc. I enjoy this a lot more, but do understand that it probably feels 'flat' and as though the stakes are lower and thus less exciting to most.
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Oct 10, 2022 12:45
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God I love Eno's prophecy theme soooo drat much. Zimmer did a great job with the new one but Lynch's soundtrack is more exciting? analog? fuzzier? like hearing the sounds of a galactic conflict immeasurably distant from our own.
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Oct 10, 2022 20:30
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DebonaireD posted:God I love Eno's prophecy theme soooo drat much. Zimmer did a great job with the new one but Lynch's soundtrack is more exciting? analog? fuzzier? like hearing the sounds of a galactic conflict immeasurably distant from our own. I think it's because it is composed by the band Toto (or well, primarily David Paich) in what arguably could be called their prime, David is one of the best songwriters of all time and him having all his buddies, all acclaimed artists in their own right must've helped tremendously in making such an awe-inspiring soundtrack. On one hand, it's a shame they didn't write any more soundtracks because they had the skills to write some really, really good stuff.
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Oct 11, 2022 01:45
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skasion posted:I love Heretics. It’s the first book since the original where it feels like Herbert had fun writing it, and as far as being an enjoyable read, it’s probably my favorite after the original. But Chapterhouse was a disappointment to me. It’s a downer of a book and feels like too much of a direct sequel to Heretics. None of the other Dune books follow each other so closely, they’ve all got a handy time skip of 10-5000 years so the author could set up the story he really wanted to tell, and this feels just like follow-up on Heretics that should have been gotten through in a few pages so we could jump to the bildungsroman of one naive young virgin of prophecy in the Honored Matre Sex Imperium a century after the conquest or whatever. Doesn’t help that it goes right to a cliffhanger and no more books were ever written. Yeah it's this. They didn't feel too direct-sequel-esque to me, though. They're more than a decade apart based on the Teg ghola's age, which is more than enough by your reckoning and also more time than elapsed between Messiah and Children, which kind of did feel too close together to me.
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Oct 11, 2022 02:30
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My theory is each Dune sequel begins at exactly the point where the status quo established at the end of the last installment begins to unravel. Chapterhouse is the one that fits that the least. It has a timeskip, but it mostly continues the story from Heretics in a straight line. The other books jump over the stuff you could reasonably assume might follow, and drop you at the start of something new.
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Oct 11, 2022 03:02
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Prolonged Panorama posted:My theory is each Dune sequel begins at exactly the point where the status quo established at the end of the last installment begins to unravel. I mean that's pretty much sequel writing 101.
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Oct 11, 2022 08:49
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DebonaireD posted:God I love Eno's prophecy theme soooo drat much. Zimmer did a great job with the new one but Lynch's soundtrack is more exciting? analog? fuzzier? like hearing the sounds of a galactic conflict immeasurably distant from our own. Greggster posted:I think it's because it is composed by the band Toto (or well, primarily David Paich) in what arguably could be called their prime, David is one of the best songwriters of all time and him having all his buddies, all acclaimed artists in their own right must've helped tremendously in making such an awe-inspiring soundtrack.
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Oct 11, 2022 13:34
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Prolonged Panorama posted:My theory is each Dune sequel begins at exactly the point where the status quo established at the end of the last installment begins to unravel. Heretics ends with the Sisterhood realising that "Holy poo poo, the HM are actually everywhere and specifically undermining the power structures we put in place to establish an autocracy of weaponised sex and bureaucracy" but they have Shanna and Murbella, Tleilaxu technology, and Odrade/Taraza have a plan. CH:D starts with the Sisterhood at a nadir not seen since the Tyrant and they are accelerating their plans because they know they have little time.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:31
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I still maintain that the entire series of Dune in-universe is told by some far-future combined Sisterhood-Honored Matre archivist who's using Other Memory and various written records. There's all sorts of hints in first three books but God-Emperor of Dune makes it quite plain.
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Oct 11, 2022 17:39
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I still maintain that the entire series of Dune in-universe is told by some far-future combined Sisterhood-Honored Matre archivist who's using Other Memory and various written records. The first book is clearly based on Irulan's narrated audiobooks and recorded lectures for schoolchildren.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:02
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@irulanxoxo every character from every house, planet, guild, choam, and sietch come in with everything for a HUGE battle
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Oct 11, 2022 18:19
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Fuschia tude posted:The first book is clearly based on Irulan's narrated audiobooks and recorded lectures for schoolchildren. The ending of the first book is such a masterstroke just for how it makes all the Irulan quotes hit totally different. BlankSystemDaemon posted:TOTO, who were all very exceptionally talented folk and worked as session musicians with a whole bunch of that eras best artists including Pink Floyd, Quincy Jones, Eric Clapton, Paul McCarthy, Earth Wind & Fire, Eddie Van Halen, Yes, as well as many others I'm sure I'm forgetting. Steely Dan, which is why I'm not interested in exploring any more of TOTO's music.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:25
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:I still maintain that the entire series of Dune in-universe is told by some far-future combined Sisterhood-Honored Matre archivist who's using Other Memory and various written records. One thing that always struck me was the beginning of Messiah, where there’s a conversation about the historiography of Paul which seems to be occurring long after the events of Dune and Dune Messiah, but the characters make no reference to Leto II. You could rationalize it with some strained logic but I don’t think Frank had much of a plan when he started these books.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:29
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Jewmanji posted:One thing that always struck me was the beginning of Messiah, where there’s a conversation about the historiography of Paul which seems to be occurring long after the events of Dune and Dune Messiah, but the characters make no reference to Leto II. You could rationalize it with some strained logic but I don’t think Frank had much of a plan when he started these books. I mean, you can only reference the dickless worm-man so many times before getting on people's nerves.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:36
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Bubblyblubber posted:I mean, you can only reference the dickless worm-man so many times before getting on people's nerves. Is this true? Yes it's true. This worm has no dick.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:40
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He just doesn't quote the bit that goes, "If we talk about Worm God we are going to be here all millennium just doing the set-up to actually talk about the important stuff. So, please, keep it on topic."
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Oct 11, 2022 19:38
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the dream unfolds https://twitter.com/SecretsOfDune/status/1579994747519012865?s=20&t=X7Ym0NrjdlwYhnDilIIfRQ
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Oct 12, 2022 15:52
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Two weeks earlier! Huh, I didn't foresee that.
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Oct 12, 2022 23:33
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Tree Bucket posted:Two weeks earlier! Huh, I didn't foresee that. Maybe it's time to step your game up...to the water of life
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Oct 12, 2022 23:37
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