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Qwertycoatl posted:In any case you'll do much better with a class you click with than one which you read on the internet has the biggest dps when played perfectly  Changing your 'main' job isn't completely trivial, you've gotta level it up and learn your new skills and combos, but it's definitely not the commitment it is in other MMOs like WoW where you have to pick one then stick with it and hope it stays good or else play the whole game over again. So even if you do want to play the top tier DPS job eventually, you don't have to play it right now. girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 10:55 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 10:52
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Antivehicular posted:I'm not seeing a DoH/DoL list where everything's at least 10 levels over MSQ, so honestly, you could be doing much worse Every expansion I've capped crafters/gatherers before getting anywhere near even one combat job finished 
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Oct 11, 2022 11:21
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Kite Pride Worldwide posted:Every expansion I've capped crafters/gatherers before getting anywhere near even one combat job finished Love the concept of the warrior of light as a chill craftsman who is called in to kick magical butt against their better inclination.
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Oct 11, 2022 11:50
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Roach Warehouse posted:Love the concept of the warrior of light as a chill craftsman who is called in to kick magical butt against their better inclination. I mean as far as I can tell every white mage in ARR is canonically a tree-hugging stoner who gets called up every so often to fling rocks at whatever the current threat to the realm is, so this isn't that far off
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Oct 11, 2022 12:36
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quiggy posted:I mean as far as I can tell every white mage in ARR is canonically a tree-hugging stoner who gets called up every so often to fling rocks at whatever the current threat to the realm is, so this isn't that far off Conjurers are in an authoritarian cult centred around forest spirits who like to send trees to kill everyone. Maybe they help you, maybe they let you die, forest law is fickle. There aren't many White Mages.
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Oct 11, 2022 12:47
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Also in terms of practicing for your main job/alt jobs, the only thing that really worked for me has been to actually use the job in raids: I kinda sucked at using Monk (which is more or less my second main) until I had a few goes in P7S and actually managed to work the rotation into an actual fight (although playing a 1.93 GCD job after being used to the fairly sedate 2.50 GCD of Warrior meant that my fingers felt like hell by the end). If you are a little bit apprehensive about doing Savages though, the best recommendation is doing Alliance Raids, especially ones that are at level cap (currently just one). They are perfect for practicing rotations in fight conditions and I feel that they are much more useful than just hitting the target dummy. Target dummy can be useful for practicing openers, but you are still concentrating too much on your button presses, since there is nothing else to focus on. In Alliance raids, it's much easier to enter that flow state where you aren't really thinking about your rotation anymore, and just pressing buttons instinctively, while paying full attention to how to resolve mechanisms.
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Oct 11, 2022 13:18
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Tekopo posted:Ranged DPS: Machinist (currently the worst DPS job in the game) 
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Oct 11, 2022 15:24
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Didn't realize reaper was low tier at high levels, why is that?
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Oct 11, 2022 15:50
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It just deals less damage than the other melee dps. But when you're doing high-end content having at least one every role is more important than the specific job setup, and Reaper isn't that much worse than its counterparts.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:54
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As Tekopo said earlier in the post, party composition really doesn't matter outside of trying to clear the Savage tier of fights the week it was released. And even then, people cleared week 1 with Machinists and Reapers; they just had less margin for error than parties with more optimal comps. Outside of that week 1 period, relative job quality doesn't really matter. Shoot your guns and drills to your heart's desire.Feldegast42 posted:Didn't realize reaper was low tier at high levels, why is that?
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Oct 11, 2022 16:02
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Feldegast42 posted:Didn't realize reaper was low tier at high levels, why is that? The general rule of thumb is the more supportive a job's toolkit is, the more likely it has lower selfish dps. This doesn't run perfectly like in the case of machinist which is theoretically supposed to be the selfish ranged dps outta the 3 but it doesn't have a high enough dps to compare to the more supportive bard and dance and why people always ask for more buffs for it. Reaper is ironically more supportive despite how it looks compared to Dragoon and Monk. It's also why Ninja is so valuable because Trick Attack is significant enough to boosting the party's overall DPS that it makes up for having the lowest selfish DPS outta the melee jobs.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:36
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That's the theory, but Ninja has better personal DPS than both Reaper and Dragoon, despite coming in with Mug. Reaper also has less support than arguably any melee except Samurai.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:42
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Yeah, do not get disheartened by this talk of high/low tier: pressing your buttons good is MUCH more important and being comfortable in your job and having the muscle memory for it is a much bigger contributor to your DPS than any theoretical highest/lowest potential DPS. And, as mentioned by me and others, every job comp can clear every type of content in the game.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:43
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The job differences boil down to a couple of things, basically: - The current raid has intentionally made boss hit boxes very large, which benefits melee who have an easier time keeping uptime than usual. - Red Mage and Summoner pay a damage tax for getting Raises. - Physical ranged pay a damage tax for not having any uptime issues. - Some jobs are not well-tuned. That's pretty much it. All the stuff about who best interacts with the two minute group buff windows aren't really reasons for the relative DPS outputs being what they are. The game could have potency numbers such that any combination of selfish and selfless jobs end up on top. The potency numbers we currently have just happen to work out such that Reaper and Machinist are low within their types. So it goes, no moral. For reference, these are DPS statistics for the last two weeks on the aforementioned part 1 of P8S:  Mark in the middle is the median DPS, fat bars are 25th to 75th percentile, thin bars are 10th to 90th percentile (I think) and dots are highest value recorded within the window. Flogs sorts by 75th percentile, for reasons known only to flogs. The main thing to take away is that jobs within a role are generally very close. You don't really need to worry about picking wrong, and the fight tuning isn't very tight if you're not running with week 1 gear ... but if you try to clear Savage in the party finder then there has reportedly been a distinct uptick in groups who mandate double melee compositions (which were already a thing when double melee wasn't particularly good).
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Oct 11, 2022 16:52
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One fun highlight of that graph is the huge range present for BLM, which makes sense considering that positioning and knowing the fights and tiny optimisations of DPS are key for that job. BLM is incredibly fun but you basically have to work out what to do in every single fight. In other words, play Black Mage, it's an extremely fun job, and the leveling experience is pretty good now compared to pre-EW!
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Oct 11, 2022 16:59
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Tekopo posted:Ranged DPS: Machinist (currently the worst DPS job in the game) Just wanna jump on this quick to avoid misconceptions: Bard and Dancer borrow power on DPS meters from buffing other players. MCH is a "selfish" ranged DPS who does their own thing. "Worst dps" is only when you assume that the other ranged dps have optimal party members, and they'll be fine if you're running with a more typical bunch of jokers. Everybody's pretty dang close anyway compared to other games, unless you're minmaxing for enrage timers. This isn't one of those games where somebody's doing half the DPS they should, it's only early in a savage tier when you're fighting tightly tuned bosses with last tier's gear that anyone's really gonna notice. After that "replace X with Y" is usually a secondary concern to "how about you stop dying before we worry about that?" Aside from the Range Tax anyway (melee dps do more damage because they're assumed to have less uptime while dodging mechanics, new designs lately have greatly cut back on that limitation), and they're looking at changing that in 6.3.
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Oct 11, 2022 17:17
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Qwertycoatl posted:In any case you'll do much better with a class you click with than one which you read on the internet has the biggest dps when played perfectly This times a million
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Oct 11, 2022 17:27
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Someone who knows what they're doing in the "worst" class of their group will always be preferred to some chucklefuck who picked up the "best" class an hour ago.
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Oct 11, 2022 17:29
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Shows up pretty clearly on the graph there, the gap between a good and bad player is much bigger than the gap between a "good" and "bad" job
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Oct 11, 2022 17:39
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most of the discourse around this is circulated by regular PFers, for whom the assumption must be below-average players with below-average gear across the board, so it makes sense to hedge your bets
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Oct 11, 2022 17:40
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That being said I've been playing MCH again lately for fun and it is very weird trying to get stuff to line up with 2 minute buff windows
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Oct 11, 2022 17:42
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Buttons should feel good to press and you'll press them better and remember that many classes may not feel that way at certain level ranges, in top of your personal preference. You may also experience epiphanies that seem unrelated to the class at hand by getting better at the game overall, entering a new level range, or just plain old random chance. Recently I got into DNC on my second try on a target dummy after feeling utterly useless just doing my first class quest. I've been leveling DRG to 70 which is where I hear it becomes "real" and I've really felt that, it's a workable class before then but very clunky and I have having a one button aoe rotation unless we're 55+ for an ogcd or about 60+ for a 1-2. I also gave AST a poke to start bringing another class from 60-70 off my daily duties and it feels much better than I remembered! So far the only remaining clunker classes I have are MNK 60 as I haven't felt it and don't quite get the second form ignoring button I got at 60, on top of it feeling kinda high effort for not great button feel vs say NIN, and SMN since I've never played it outside class quests, level SCH instead, I guess the itch will hit me one day. Doomykins fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 17:55
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Doomykins posted:Buttons should feel good to press and you'll press them better and remember that many classes may not feel that way at certain level ranges, in top of your personal preference. You may also experience epiphanies that seem unrelated to the class at hand by getting better at the game overall, entering a new level range, or just plain old random chance. Masterful Blitz is essentially your primary burst, and it can be confusing if you don't understand how forms work and how it is tied to Perfect Balance. When you activate Perfect Balance, your next three GCDs can be any of your primary attacks. After you do those three attacks, you can then press Masterful Blitz to punch a guy really hard. There are two patterns you want to keep in mind when using Perfect Balance: all from one form (i.e. Dragon Kick -> Bootshine -> Dragon Kick) or one from each form (i.e. Twin Snakes -> Dragon Kick -> Snap Punch). You'll want to do each of those combinations once, which will then make your next Masterful Blitz hit extra hard no matter what you do during that Perfect Balance.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:03
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Monk is great although I’m biased. At 60 you have basically unlocked the class as it is meant to be played, and the rotation won’t change from now to 90 apart from extra buffs and higher potencies/different animations. The basis of the job at 60 is that your normal rotation, as you might have noticed, has pairs of buttons that need the same form to have a bonus, and that give you the form for next set when you press them, so you are constantly changing between the three forms. Perfect balance allows you to free combo, disregarding the combo chain. Below 60 you usually just want to Dragon Kick -> Bootshine -> Dragon Kick, but at 60, the forms you press matter. If you press three buttons with the same form, you get a lunar charge. If you press 3 different forms, you get a solar charge. You end the Perfect Balance by using a blitz, which has different power depending if you did a solar or lunar blitz (technically there is a two form blitz you can do but you never want to use this): once you have both a lunar and solar charge, your next blitz will be a special attack, which happens automatically regardless of if you did a solar or lunar combo. Then rinse and repeat. The animations get a lot better later on so at level 90 the job feels awesome, and you’ll be scaring other players when you appear to be out of position due to Phantom Rush.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:12
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Mmm, I get the idea of like "do three different moves, do the same move three times, do The Big Kick" but I'm already really sloppy with the cooldowns to ignore form requirements and kind of blanking on what the other one I got is for. I get Perfect Balance lets me renew my damage buff if I drop it with bad timing or line up extra dragon kicks and bootshine crits, though I'm not sure that's the best use of them/extra charges if I'm on top of my rotation. Form Shift.. I don't really get. Just another get out of forms free card?
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Oct 11, 2022 18:13
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Doomykins posted:Mmm, I get the idea of like "do three different moves, do the same move three times, do The Big Kick" but I'm already really sloppy with the cooldowns to ignore form requirements and kind of blanking on what the other one I got is for. I get Perfect Balance lets me renew my damage buff if I drop it with bad timing or line up extra dragon kicks and bootshine crits, though I'm not sure that's the best use of them/extra charges if I'm on top of my rotation. Due to wonkiness, Dragon Kick won't actually grant you Leaden Fist if you start with it. You only get that buff if you're switching in from another stance. Form Shift basically functions as a blank stance and lets you start with Dragon Kick and getting the buff.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:17
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So it'd be like Form Shift, DK, Bootshine into 1-2-3, Perfect Balance to play by ear? What would I use Form Shift for after that, fight intermissions to reset with a DK opener? And what's PB ideally for? I don't need to play meta perfect but I feel like I may be using it wrong, especially since I didn't know about DK wonkiness you just mentioned. I also find the pre-60 DK only gameplay to be heresy unto Yoshi P and boring, I'd rather the illusion of effort and choice with my 1-2-3s and Shift 1-2-3s. 
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Oct 11, 2022 18:20
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Perfect balance is always and only for masterful blitz post 60.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:24
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Tekopo posted:In other words, play Black Mage, it's an extremely fun job, and the leveling experience is pretty good now compared to pre-EW! Black mage best mage. When I fired up the game for the first time I, without having any idea what any of the words on the screen really meant gameplay wise, thought conjurer would be a good class because I thought I would be summoning monsters and stuff. I only a little later discovered it was a healer class and swapped to THM when I could and then stuck with THM/BLM for the next 6 months. It's very fun and the basics of the class are easy to pick up. You'll understand very quickly why BLMs greed cast fight mechanics so often.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:26
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Form shift you only use before the fight or during intermissions, and that's pretty much it. You can ignore it for the rest of the rotation. A simple opener (without considering buffs or oGCDs you get later) is: Pre-pull Form Shift On pull, you do Dragon Kick -> Twin Snakes -> Demolish -> Bootshine (to get your personal damage buff and start the DoT on the boss) Press Perfect Balance and do Dragon Kick -> Bootshine -> Dragon Kick -> Blitz -> Bootshine Press Perfect Balance again and do Twin Snakes -> Demolish -> Dragon Kick -> Blitz -> Bootshine (to refersh your personal damage buff and the DoT) Then start your rotation from there.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:28
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Perfect Balance is used for Masterful blitz. Specifically you'll use it for your regular 123 combo for your Solar attack, and again but with bootshine- dragon kick- bootshine for your Lunar attack. Before Masterful Blitz was a thing, it was essentially for that bootshine dragonkick combo since DK specifically buffs bootshine. So you'd DK, Perfect balance, then BS-DK-BS.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:31
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Ahh. Thanks for the help everyone, living up to my WoLs rp profile as empty headed by staring at the literal punch guy rotation and having question marks grow over my head.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:33
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Also, once you start getting your damage buffs (Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood), you will notice that the Perfect Balance charge refreshes far earlier than either of those buffs, so you usually want to delay using PB until you are under one or both buffs. Eventually you get into a rhythm of having windows where you use 1 damage buff (Riddle of Fire, since it has half the cooldown period of Brotherhood) with 1 PB use, and 2 damage buffs with 2 PB uses. So, like most other jobs, the rule of thumb with Perfect Balance is hold your burst until your buff window is up. Now, why should you play Monk? Well, the combo system is the most freeform one for any melee, and flows nicely together once you get used to it. Phantom Rush is one of the best feeling buttons in the game for me. You get the most personal mitigation of any melee with the use of Riddle of Earth, which you can pretty much use freely on every single raidwide since you get 3 charges and they refresh fast. You also get Mantra, which helps your healers to heal and they will LOVE YOU for it. The only issue with Monk is that you have no real ranged options like the other melee, but that's made up by the fact that your gap-closer is awesome and you can actually macro it to run up to your friends and hug them! Monk is loving awesome. EDIT: Everyone should try to sell their own favourite jobs, because every job has a reason to be awesome in this game. Tekopo fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 18:35
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The super big-brain (and confusing) play for MNK, once you get Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood, is to do two solar PBs in a row in your opener. One of these is "wasted" of course, but then it makes sure that your final big blammo wammo is aligned with BOTH RoF and BH, and always will be. If you do the intuitive thing (solar, lunar, then big boom) then the final hit always aligns with ONLY RoF and never with both it and brotherhood.
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Oct 11, 2022 18:52
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Ice Fist posted:Black mage best mage. Seconding Black Mage being fuckin' awesome. Also, there's a LOOOOT of misinformation around it - or at least misleading information. Two of the big things I see people talk about with the job is that 1) it doesn't get "good" or "make sense" until 60-70, and 2) the rotation is confusing / complicated / difficult. Both of these are pretty blatantly false imo. The gameplay for the job, from level 2 all the way to level 90, is "Spend mana with fire spells, then recover mana with ice spells, repeat" - that's it. The nuances change of course, but the core rotation is fairly simple compared to something like a melee DPS, even at 90. The rotation / openers make sense at all levels of the job, imo, and don't take much research or outside knowledge unless you want to learn how to optimize things. Admittedly, BLM pre-60 and post-60 are almost two entirely different jobs that happen to share the fire/ice phase thing. Before 60, the gameplay is almost entirely waiting on procs and using them ASAP for damage. As soon as you hit 60 and get Fire 4, suddenly the job becomes about spamming as may Fire 4s as humanly possible, and using the procs either for movement or to create weaving windows (to use abilities to let you spam more Fire 4s). After 60 it starts giving you more and more things to weave too, to play up this aspect. Post 60 BLM fuckin' owns, but pre-60 BLM is real fun too and it's a shame that so many people go "just wait until 60, then it gets fun!!" because no, it's fun pre-60, it's just a different playstyle. CodfishCartographer fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Oct 11, 2022 |
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Oct 11, 2022 19:08
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CodfishCartographer posted:The super big-brain (and confusing) play for MNK, once you get Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood, is to do two solar PBs in a row in your opener. One of these is "wasted" of course, but then it makes sure that your final big blammo wammo is aligned with BOTH RoF and BH, and always will be. If you do the intuitive thing (solar, lunar, then big boom) then the final hit always aligns with ONLY RoF and never with both it and brotherhood. You only do this if you know your kill time for a boss. Otherwise you may lose a use of Phantom Rush, which is a loss no matter what you do. Absolutely not required to play MNK at all. MNK optimizers are just special in that way.
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Oct 11, 2022 19:09
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CodfishCartographer posted:Seconding Black Mage being fuckin' awesome.
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Oct 11, 2022 19:11
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Tekopo posted:Do you mean Fire IV? Fire III should only be used to change from ice to fire. Oops yeah, Fire 4
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Oct 11, 2022 19:17
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Roluth posted:MNK optimizers are just special in that way. Insert cursed FPS lock optimization strats here. For those unaware, there's some really crazy stuff where your FPS affects how quickly you can press your GCDs without drifting fractions of a second which leads to extremely cursed optimization strategies that involve locking FPS.
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Oct 11, 2022 19:57
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I did my first 24 person alliance raid last night . After years of wow it was the perfect little raid experience Raid finder but not toxic somehow
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