AMD CPU and Platfrom Discussion Episode IV: A New Hope is Ryzen

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > AMD CPU and Platfrom Discussion Episode IV: A New Hope is Ryzen

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Saturnine Aberrance: Sep 6, 2010; Creator. Please make me flesh.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

The Asrock B650E PG Riptide WiFi is the only motherboard I found in the B650E series that has PCIe x16 5.0 for graphics card as well as a M.2 5.0 for storage, but I'd love to be told that there's another B650E with that feature-set because I'd at least like a little bit of choice.

EDIT: They removed the mention of ECC.

The ROG Strix B650E-E has two M.2 5.0 and two PCI-E 5.0 slots, and the manual on ASUS' site lists ECC support. https://www.newegg.com/asus-rog-strix-b650e-e-gaming-wifi/p/N82E16813119593

# ? Oct 11, 2022 15:19

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 10:53

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Saturnine Aberrance posted:

The ROG Strix B650E-E has two M.2 5.0 and two PCI-E 5.0 slots, and the manual on ASUS' site lists ECC support. https://www.newegg.com/asus-rog-strix-b650e-e-gaming-wifi/p/N82E16813119593

Does that mean it reports ECC faults, or just that it doesn�t puke on ECC DIMMs? I forget what all the variants of ECC support are!

# ? Oct 11, 2022 15:25

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

Yeah, it's getting a little confusing. Do the motherboard manuals just mean On-die ECC now, or is there actually an 80-bit bus to the CPU?

# ? Oct 11, 2022 15:48

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

hobbesmaster posted:

Thinking about it slightly more, with the PS5 having such a ridiculously fast storage setup, over the timeframe of AM5 you may actually see differences in load times between your 3 m2 slots? That�s an x670 argument. PCIE 5 nvme ssds faster than pcie4x4 have already been announced, samsung 990 pro is claiming 13GB/s read.

Having to carefully pick �ok my OS drive is cpu pcie 4, game drive is cpu pcie 5, my random old pcie 3 one goes on the motherboard slot� seems annoying.

Over the lifetime of AM5 it probably doesn't make a difference. Game devs aren't gonna target PCIe 5 as a minimum spec when only 5% of people have it.

When new GPU tech comes out, the games are using the new whizbangs relatively soon because most of the time it's stuff that you can layer on top and make optional. You add ray tracing so the people with mondo GPUs all buy your game so they have something to play that uses their expensive toy. But you don't make it mandatory for commercial products because most of the audience can't use it.

The various things you can do with storage tech are AFAIK not so easy to add in as the "ultra storage" checkbox. Thus, the lack of games today that really see that much difference with even PCIe3 vs sata storage.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 15:49

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
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Klyith posted:

Over the lifetime of AM5 it probably doesn't make a difference. Game devs aren't gonna target PCIe 5 as a minimum spec when only 5% of people have it.

When new GPU tech comes out, the games are using the new whizbangs relatively soon because most of the time it's stuff that you can layer on top and make optional. You add ray tracing so the people with mondo GPUs all buy your game so they have something to play that uses their expensive toy. But you don't make it mandatory for commercial products because most of the audience can't use it.

The various things you can do with storage tech are AFAIK not so easy to add in as the "ultra storage" checkbox. Thus, the lack of games today that really see that much difference with even PCIe3 vs sata storage.

all the reasons why my inner consumerist fire for the latest PC tech has pretty much died

# ? Oct 11, 2022 15:55

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Saturnine Aberrance posted:

The ROG Strix B650E-E has two M.2 5.0 and two PCI-E 5.0 slots, and the manual on ASUS' site lists ECC support. https://www.newegg.com/asus-rog-strix-b650e-e-gaming-wifi/p/N82E16813119593

Oh, dang. I completely missed checking Asus boards since their site refused to list B650 chipsets when I tried on launch-day. Thanks!
EDIT: Looks like the manual isn't available, and the specs page has been pulled?

I have the same question as Subjunctive though, because ECC "support" is hilarious.

Subjunctive posted:

Does that mean it reports ECC faults, or just that it doesn�t puke on ECC DIMMs? I forget what all the variants of ECC support are!

ECC memory can either be:

Completely missing - the blame for this one lies solely on the companies doing clones of the IBM PC spec, because they cheaped out by ignoring that the original PC AT spec had ECC memory just like IBMs mainframes did and do (CPUs also still have ECC memory for the internal caches)
Implemented to the point that the system can POST - this should be the default assumption, unless anything has been verified validated
Corrects single-bit errors, silently detects double-bit errors - this is obviously bad for everyone
Corrects single-bit errors, causes an automatic system panic - bad for anyone who isn't a hyperscaler, or a few other use-cases that're well outside the scope of this conversation
Corrects single-bit errors, double-bit errors generate an Non-Maskable Interrupt - the OS can then use the NMI plus some bits in the kernel to decide if the corrupted memory can be easily invalidated (if it's cached data that isn't dirty), if it's important program data (ie. only a single process needs to be restarted), or if it's the kernel (yeah, that's a crash, but at least you'll know why)

Combat Pretzel posted:

Yeah, it's getting a little confusing. Do the motherboard manuals just mean On-die ECC now, or is there actually an 80-bit bus to the CPU?

DDR5 cannot function without on-die ECC, but the only way to check that memory has per-DIMM ECC is to look for the 9th die.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Oct 11, 2022

# ? Oct 11, 2022 17:47

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

I did not realize using XMP technically voids your warranty (per Buildzoid).

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:02

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

DDR5 cannot function without on-die ECC, but the only way to check that memory has per-DIMM ECC is to look for the 9th die.

Yeah I know. Actually, it's 10 dies with DDR5. One per 32bit channel (32+8).

The issue is more with the mainboards, whether they actually put down the traces for ECC support or not.

At this point, I'm hoping enough people over on the L1Techs forums burn their fingers with this poo poo to figure out what to buy whenever the V-Cache CPUs come about.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:03

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Combat Pretzel posted:

Yeah I know. Actually, it's 10 dies with DDR5. One per 32bit channel (32+8).

The issue is more with the mainboards, whether they actually put down the traces for ECC support or not.

At this point, I'm hoping enough people over on the L1Techs forums burn their fingers with this poo poo to figure out what to buy whenever the V-Cache CPUs come about.

Every UDIMM non-ECC stick I see is 8 dies per side, so how do you get to 10?

Right, but testing ECC traces is even harder than simply finding out if it works.

When's the V-Cache CPUs coming out? I hadn't realized Ryzen 7000 would be getting some, maybe I should wait after all.
There's no such thing as too much L3 cache.

Rinkles posted:

I did not realize using XMP technically voids your warranty (per Buildzoid).

Depending on juristriction, that doesn't seem enforcable - especially if the firmware has an option for auto-overclocking that enables it.
It especially doesn't make sense, because if XMP voids the warrenty then there's no way turbo-boosting doesn't.

BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Oct 11, 2022

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:08

Combat Pretzel: Jun 23, 2004; No, seriously... what kurds?!

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Every UDIMM non-ECC stick I see is 8 dies per side, so how do you get to 10?

DDR5 UDIMM = 8 chips for non-ECC, 10 chips for ECC.

While DDR5 is 64bit wide, it's actually two 32bit channels. Each gets its own chip for parity. Therefore 10.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

When's the V-Cache CPUs coming out? I hadn't realized Ryzen 7000 would be getting some, maybe I should wait after all.
There's no such thing as too much L3 cache.

Rumor is they'll be announced at CES 2023.

--edit:
While trying to look up the algorithm for DDR5's DIMM level ECC, I found out on-die is 8bits parity data for 128bit of data. That's pretty laffo vs DDR4's 8 for 64 and DDR5's 8 for 32.

Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Oct 11, 2022

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:12

hobbesmaster: Jan 28, 2008

Klyith posted:

Over the lifetime of AM5 it probably doesn't make a difference. Game devs aren't gonna target PCIe 5 as a minimum spec when only 5% of people have it.

When new GPU tech comes out, the games are using the new whizbangs relatively soon because most of the time it's stuff that you can layer on top and make optional. You add ray tracing so the people with mondo GPUs all buy your game so they have something to play that uses their expensive toy. But you don't make it mandatory for commercial products because most of the audience can't use it.

The various things you can do with storage tech are AFAIK not so easy to add in as the "ultra storage" checkbox. Thus, the lack of games today that really see that much difference with even PCIe3 vs sata storage.

Minimum specs are irrelevant, the question is if it�ll help or not and it could if load time optimization was done on the consoles.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:20

Saturnine Aberrance: Sep 6, 2010; Creator. Please make me flesh.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

Oh, dang. I completely missed checking Asus boards since their site refused to list B650 chipsets when I tried on launch-day. Thanks!
EDIT: Looks like the manual isn't available, and the specs page has been pulled?

I have the same question as Subjunctive though, because ECC "support" is hilarious.

[snip]

Here's the manual PDF - it's available at the board's support page. https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/Socket%20AM5/ROG%20STRIX%20B650E-E%20GAMING%20WIFI/E20246_ROG_STRIX_B650E-E_GAMING_WIFI_UM_WEB.pdf

I'm not sure how to confirm the level of ECC support though - unless there's a good way to find a confirmation that isn't searching for "ECC". Here's everything I'm seeing:

quote:

4 x DIMM, Max. 128GB, DDR5 6400+(OC)/ 6200(OC)/ 6000(OC)/ 5800(OC)/ 5600(OC)/ 5400(OC)/ 5200/ 5000/ 4800 ECC and Non-ECC,
Un-buffered Memory*
Dual Channel Memory Architecture
Supports AMD EXTended Profiles for Overclocking (EXPO�)
OptiMem II
* Supported memory types, data rate(Speed), and number of DRAM module vary depending on the CPU and memory configuration, for more information refer to https://www.asus.com for memory support list.
* Non-ECC, Un-buffered DDR5 Memory supports On-Die ECC function.

quote:

You may install 8 GB, 16 GB, and 32 GB unbuffered, ECC or non-ECC DDR5 DIMMs into the DIMM sockets.

AFAICT - they just aren't being specific on the level of support.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:36

aluminumonkey: Jun 19, 2002; Reggie loves tacos

Amazon has the 5900X down to 334.99. This seems to be my stop to replace my Ryzen 2700. Any reason not to get this?

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:43

Blorange: Jan 31, 2007; A wizard did it

Do you need the 12 cores? The 8 core 5700x or 5800x are even cheaper.

Otherwise if you're going for gaming performance the 5800x3d will certainly be the best possible upgrade, although it's still $420.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 18:47

aluminumonkey: Jun 19, 2002; Reggie loves tacos

Blorange posted:

Do you need the 12 cores? The 8 core 5700x or 5800x are even cheaper.

Otherwise if you're going for gaming performance the 5800x3d will certainly be the best possible upgrade, although it's still $420.

I do various other projects that include video/photo editing, file conversion, and gaming. This is going to last quite awhile 4+ years.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 19:00

Blorange: Jan 31, 2007; A wizard did it

aluminumonkey posted:

I do various other projects that include video/photo editing, file conversion, and gaming. This is going to last quite awhile 4+ years.

Go for it, just follow the necessary steps for updating your bios for the 5000 series support. Some of the older AM4 motherboards have issues where the bios can't support the older ryzens in the same bios version as the newer ones due to space constraints.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 19:20

Rinkles: Oct 24, 2010; What I'm getting at is...
Do you feel the same way?

aluminumonkey posted:

Amazon has the 5900X down to 334.99. This seems to be my stop to replace my Ryzen 2700. Any reason not to get this?

Is mobo forwards compatibility now mostly a non-issue?

# ? Oct 11, 2022 19:23

Kibner: Oct 21, 2008; Acguy Supremacy

Rinkles posted:

Is mobo forwards compatibility now mostly a non-issue?

I have an X570 that worked with both my 2700x and my 5950x.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 19:28

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

hobbesmaster posted:

Minimum specs are irrelevant,

You can't do Ratchet & Clank poo poo without a fast NVMe drive as a minimum spec.

hobbesmaster posted:

the question is if it�ll help or not and it could if load time optimization was done on the consoles.

the answer was "probably not" and "no, not until a significant portion of the PC audience has NVMe storage"

optimize load time is a tighten up the graphics on level 3 simplification

# ? Oct 11, 2022 19:28

BlankSystemDaemon: Mar 13, 2009

Combat Pretzel posted:

DDR5 UDIMM = 8 chips for non-ECC, 10 chips for ECC.

While DDR5 is 64bit wide, it's actually two 32bit channels. Each gets its own chip for parity. Therefore 10.

Rumor is they'll be announced at CES 2023.

--edit:
While trying to look up the algorithm for DDR5's DIMM level ECC, I found out on-die is 8bits parity data for 128bit of data. That's pretty laffo vs DDR4's 8 for 64 and DDR5's 8 for 32.

So what you're saying is, computers were a mistake.

CES 2023 is pretty soon, all things considered - and given that I'm exclusively playing Elite Dangerous when I have the energy for sitting at my computer, and that ED runs.. acceptably on my aging box, I might be able to get away with it.

Saturnine Aberrance posted:

Here's the manual PDF - it's available at the board's support page. https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/Socket%20AM5/ROG%20STRIX%20B650E-E%20GAMING%20WIFI/E20246_ROG_STRIX_B650E-E_GAMING_WIFI_UM_WEB.pdf

I'm not sure how to confirm the level of ECC support though - unless there's a good way to find a confirmation that isn't searching for "ECC". Here's everything I'm seeing:

AFAICT - they just aren't being specific on the level of support.

I somehow missed that completely, thank you!

What the manual says is pretty much what Asrock's website said before they removed it, so I'm not holding my breath.

As for verified validation, the only consistent way I've found is to buy enough hardware to be able to talk with a senior hardware designer at the specific vendor or buy a specific revision of the hardware.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 20:54

Cygni: Nov 12, 2005; raring to post

5800X3D for $360 with free shipping, looks legit

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295175729207?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

# ? Oct 11, 2022 22:12

Arzachel: May 12, 2012

Klyith posted:

You can't do Ratchet & Clank poo poo without a fast NVMe drive as a minimum spec.

I haven't looked into the specifics so maybe I'm missing something obvious but why is console-like streaming tech necessary when you have oodles of main memory to use?

# ? Oct 11, 2022 22:14

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

Arzachel posted:

I haven't looked into the specifics so maybe I'm missing something obvious but why is console-like streaming tech necessary when you have oodles of main memory to use?

Sure, you could do. On a PC that has oodles of main memory. But the average PC still has 16gb or less, and you can't use all of it because the OS and other apps have more overhead than a console. (Though a gaming PC with 16gb of main memory doesn't have to split it with the GPU like in a console.)

As a practical matter it will probably be acceptable to put some spec of NVMe drive on your minimum requirements sooner than it will to have 64GB of ram.

(Also the hypothetical big main memory plus slow storage gaming system will still have a lovely load time for the initial load. Putting 50gb of data into memory from a sata SSD takes 80 plus seconds.)

# ? Oct 11, 2022 23:08

repiv: Aug 13, 2009

There's also a practical difference between "really fast streaming" and "having tons of memory" from a development perspective, having tons of memory only helps if the engine can pre-empt needing assets and load them well in advance. Really fast streaming means assets can be loaded right as they're needed, which is much simpler.

# ? Oct 11, 2022 23:13

lih: May 15, 2013; Just a friendly reminder of what it looks like.

We'll do punctuation later.

BlankSystemDaemon posted:

When's the V-Cache CPUs coming out? I hadn't realized Ryzen 7000 would be getting some, maybe I should wait after all.

rumours are saying announced at CES, out February/March

# ? Oct 12, 2022 00:00

redeyes: Sep 14, 2002; by Fluffdaddy

Buildzoid had his 7950x die on video stream while trying to run some benchmarks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdjBlO7sO0g&t=603s

On this topic, stopped selling AMD processors after 6 3600x didn't work out of the box. That is unacceptable for a CPU. Literally zero Intels have ever done that in all the years.

# ? Oct 12, 2022 00:09

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Before I do it all by hand, is there any site out there that will let me paste a bunch of part numbers and check them against a QVL?

# ? Oct 12, 2022 14:28

Klyith: Aug 3, 2007; GBS Pledge Week

Subjunctive posted:

Before I do it all by hand, is there any site out there that will let me paste a bunch of part numbers and check them against a QVL?

I don't think so, but the only QVL you need to care about is your chosen mobo's ram list.

# ? Oct 12, 2022 15:18

Yudo: May 15, 2003

aluminumonkey posted:

Amazon has the 5900X down to 334.99. This seems to be my stop to replace my Ryzen 2700. Any reason not to get this?

I jumped on this; I'm going to gift my 2700x and this was as good of an excuse as any. Seems like a nice deal for people with mixed workloads that want to give AM5 more time to mature. For games alone, the extra cores don't seem worth the premium, particularly with the 8 core part on sale for $270 or there about.

# ? Oct 12, 2022 15:21

aluminumonkey: Jun 19, 2002; Reggie loves tacos

Rinkles posted:

Is mobo forwards compatibility now mostly a non-issue?

Yudo posted:

I jumped on this; I'm going to gift my 2700x and this was as good of an excuse as any. Seems like a nice deal for people with mixed workloads that want to give AM5 more time to mature. For games alone, the extra cores don't seem worth the premium, particularly with the 8 core part on sale for $270 or there about.

I have the latest bios that my board will take, so hopefully I will be okay when I install it tonight.

I have been showing my oldest son more video editing and 3d modeling hoping he will take interest in it. If not BeamNG will run a lot better.

# ? Oct 12, 2022 15:44

Cygni: Nov 12, 2005; raring to post

https://twitter.com/ChrisxWright/status/1580301657128153089

cool thing!!!

# ? Oct 12, 2022 23:39

repiv: Aug 13, 2009

AMD CPU and Platfrom Discussion: You need this cool thing!!!

# ? Oct 12, 2022 23:56

Indiana_Krom: Jun 18, 2007; Net Slacker

Cool Thing! Its the new Hot Thing.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 00:05

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

There are no good AM5 mATX boards for sale in Canada, so I�m safe for a month or so.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 00:29

Theris: Oct 9, 2007

With all the budget they spend on cocaine for their engineers there's probably nothing left for marketing.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 13:52

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Subjunctive posted:

There are no good AM5 mATX boards

# ? Oct 13, 2022 15:21

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

Subjunctive posted:

There are no good AM5 mATX boards for sale in Canada, so I�m safe for a month or so.

with how big gpus are getting matx is becoming pointless anyway

imo there's little point to builds between compact standard layout ATX and tetris'ed ITX

# ? Oct 13, 2022 16:14

AARP LARPer: Feb 19, 2005; THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR; Buglord

I'm on AM4 and I just got my 5800X3D which will be the end of the line for me -- hoping for a good, long run with this lil' guy. Plan to pair it with a 4080/RDNA3 card and hide in a cave for a few years.

# ? Oct 13, 2022 22:02

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-ryzen-7000-mobile-series-now-confirmed-to-feature-zen4-zen3-and-zen2-cpus

what the gently caress, AMD!

quote:

According to AMD�s new naming schema, this CPU has 3 generation Zen architecture, aka Zen3 or Zen3+. What this means is that Ryzen 7000 series will feature three different architectures already:

Raphael � desktop (Zen4)
Cezanne (?) � mobile (Zen3 ?)
Mendocino � mobile (Zen2)

AMD has thus far confirmed four Ryzen 7000U low-power (15-28W) mobile SKUs. The mid-range Ryzen 5 series alone will support three different architectures.

Ryzen 5 7640U - Zen 4 with RDNA2
Ryzen 5 7630U - Zen 3 with Vega
Ryzen 5 7520U - Zen 2 with RDNA2
Ryzen 5 7420U - Zen 2 with RDNA2

# ? Oct 14, 2022 09:55

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# ? Jun 7, 2024 10:53

lih: May 15, 2013; Just a friendly reminder of what it looks like.

We'll do punctuation later.

ryzen mobile chips have never really stuck to a single architecture per leading digit, nor has that leading digit usually corresponded to the desktop generation so that's nothing new & the only thing new there is a leak of another zen 3 mobile refresh which wasn't known before.

the difference is now that they announced a few months ago they're standardising the naming scheme for mobile chips, so the first digit corresponds to the year of release & the third digit is the architecture. which is unintuitive but ultimately much less confusing than before

as an example of how bad it was before, last year they launched the 5800U and 5600U which were zen 3, but at the same time they also launched the 5700U, 5500U, and 5300U, which were all zen 2

# ? Oct 14, 2022 10:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > AMD CPU and Platfrom Discussion Episode IV: A New Hope is Ryzen

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