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Taffer posted:
I mean, when one in three of them are publicly known to rape and murder skaa on the regular, and the rest of them don't do anything about it, I'd say they're all involved in driving the system. The problem is that Brandon way overshot how evil he wanted these guys to be, for how they're treated in later books. Tunicate fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 07:06
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The nobility on scadrial are all basically antebellum era plantation owners. But even more evil.
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Oct 13, 2022 08:06
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Tunicate posted:The problem is that Brandon way overshot how evil he wanted these guys to be, for how they're treated in later books. He really should've stuck with it, it made the first book better and more of a standout.
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Oct 13, 2022 08:08
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Anshu posted:I was referring to the whole messages-in-caches thing. Just to echo this, yeah, it’s not really a single character thing. A ton of people in the third mistborn book start jerking off the Lord Ruler as a guy who had to make hard choices but did his best. It isn’t altogether uninteresting character development but it’s really unconvincing that the cast downplay the truly awful stuff he did just because he was wasn’t quite as evil as the mad god that wants to kill everything
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Oct 13, 2022 10:15
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JOSEPH SAMOAN posted:Just to echo this, yeah, it’s not really a single character thing. A ton of people in the third mistborn book start jerking off the Lord Ruler as a guy who had to make hard choices but did his best. It isn’t altogether uninteresting character development but it’s really unconvincing that the cast downplay the truly awful stuff he did just because he was wasn’t quite as evil as the mad god that wants to kill everything This has always bugged me, too. I remember how much it shocked me the first time I read The Hero of Ages. What he gently caress is Elend doing, defending the lord-Ruler? At least I don't remember Vin ever making excuses for him. Like, there's elements of sympathy for the LR even in the first book. It might just be scraps, it might be the sympathy you have for any living creature who suffers, but that is far removed from the "he was somewhat admirable and trying to help" that the third book goes into. It's not even just "he was deluded and only "helping" in a deluded way," " - no, it was he wss genuinely helping Tunicate posted:The problem is that Brandon way overshot how evil he wanted these guys to be, for how they're treated in later books. This happens with writers sometimes. I dunno, they get in the moment or something, and they put stuff in their story that is way worse than they maybe intended. Then they gotta dial it back a lot later to try and develop the story they always had in mind.
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Oct 13, 2022 15:04
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My take is that the skaa and everybody in that world had been conditioned for centuries (millennia maybe?) to not only fear the Lord Ruler but be entranced by him "saving" the world. That type of centuries long prophesying doesn't just disappear over night, and it's not surprising to see people easily slip back into the mindset that hey, the Lord Ruler wasn't THAT bad, because what we're experiencing now is way, way worse. It's like some messed up version of Stockholm syndrome, in a way.
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Oct 13, 2022 15:20
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Louisgod posted:My take is that the skaa and everybody in that world had been conditioned for centuries (millennia maybe?) to not only fear the Lord Ruler but be entranced by him "saving" the world. That type of centuries long prophesying doesn't just disappear over night, and it's not surprising to see people easily slip back into the mindset that hey, the Lord Ruler wasn't THAT bad, because what we're experiencing now is way, way worse. It's like some messed up version of Stockholm syndrome, in a way. My memory is that the Lord-Ruler actually created the Skaa to be different from Nobles. They aren't just conditioned, they have some preprogrammed inclination to servility and awe/fear of te LR himself. I think even Vin has this momentary instance of being awestruck by the LR before she snaps out of it. Which reminds me of one of my favorite moments in TFE, to also continue the Kelsier talk: “He’s so powerful,” Breeze said. “Even at my best, I can only Soothe a couple hundred men. There have to be tens of thousands of people here!” Spook looked over the rim of the rooftop. “It makes me want to fall. To just let go...” Then, he paused. He shook his head, as if waking up. Vin frowned. Something felt different. Tentatively, she extinguished her copper, and realized that she could no longer feel the Lord Ruler’s Soothing. The feeling of awful depression— of soullessness and emptiness—had strangely disappeared. Spook looked up, and the rest of the crewmembers stood just a little straighter. Vin glanced around. The skaa below looked unchanged. Yet, her friends— Her eyes found Kelsier. The crewleader stood straight-backed, staring resolutely at the approaching carriage, a look of concentration on his face. He’s Rioting our emotions, Vin realized. He’s counteracting the Lord Ruler’s power. It was obviously a struggle for Kelsier to protect even their small group. Breeze is right, Vin thought. How can we fight something like this? The Lord Ruler is Soothing a hundred thousand people at once! But, Kelsier fought on. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 16:35
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General cosmere spoiler I knew exactly where he got the name for Yolen from. Looks like me and Sanderson had similar YA fantasy tastes
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Oct 13, 2022 22:24
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I'm going through TSA again because I like them and also because I fear there is so much I've forgotten or missed or I need to re-examine in the light of RoW. I'm still only on Way of Kings but "Besides, men like those…” There was something in her voice, an edge Shallan had never heard before. What was done to you? Shallan wondered with horror. And who did it? We still haven't been told what happened to Jasnah, right? My best memory of the books and speculation by fans is it had to do when she was confined to the care of Ardents or something in her youth. Was she in one of the "sanitarium" places like we see later and maybe was...victimized there somehow? Gavilar and what he was up to id still one of the greatest mysteries I desperately want the next book to finally answer.
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Oct 13, 2022 23:55
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm going through TSA again because I like them and also because I fear there is so much I've forgotten or missed or I need to re-examine in the light of RoW. Brandon read the prologue of book 5 at a signing, and you will get all your answers there. As for Jasnah, (RoW spoilers) we don't know what happened. And Jasnah's flashbacks will be in book 10, according to Brandon's statements. I already groused last page about the fact that we might need to wait for the very final book to find out what happened to Jasnah, which I'm absolutely not okay with.
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Oct 14, 2022 01:53
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The Stormlight Minis kickstarter had one final stretch goal: Brandson said to them "hey you should include <name>" and they said "who?" and he said "yeah, I'll get Ben McSweeney to make some concept art for you". So it's not so much a spoiler as a tease, but if you want to see the name and concept art of someone who's apparently gonna be important (in Book 5?): this is Zellion: https://imgur.com/6p60j8i edit: "Brandson" was a typo but it amuses the gently caress out of me and I'm keeping it
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Oct 14, 2022 16:39
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Some suspect that entity is the big bad for book 5 and possibly Odium's herald. Looks and sounds about right.
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Oct 14, 2022 17:11
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Dan is becoming a full time employee(VP of Narrative) of Dragonsteel to help Brandon manage the cosmere https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un6nd9yrHnI
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Oct 14, 2022 22:21
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Came across a few scattered spoilers about the Storm 5 prologue and Gavilar. Apparently it's only a "working" prologue but seems unlikely it will change substantially before the book comes out. Lotta negative reactions to the great man WOK talks about constantly. (almost done with my reread) I think it's fair to say Sanderson and most writers extol humility as a primary trait of their heroes. I've been seeing this since I was a kid reading Harry Potter. “It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them, and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they wear it well.” Time and again in Sanderson's novels the real, greatest hero is a figure like Kaladin or Vin. We were just talking about how down Brandon is on Kelsier, calling him a psychopath, and I think this is a big part of it. Figures like Kelsier, even with good intentions, act in a distinctly un-humble way. Their leadership and heroic style thrives on the kind of attention Vin and Kaladin loathe. They know they're capable, they know they're better than others, and they don't shy away from using this to achieve their ends. You need people of vision, people who think "I am just that drat good" as Mistborn itself proves. I've been enjoying a lot of stories lately - anime, books, TV shows, video games - which talk about the nature of heroism. I think a hero needs a certain level of humility but too much is a bad thing. They shouldn't be afraid of acknowledging their superiority and the burdens this superiority places upon them. Kaladin and Vin are examples of the absolutely self-sacrificing hero who doesn't want the adoration of others, who actively hates it, and this is a mark of their worth. But what's wrong with just admitting the facts? Kal and Vin have every right to be proud of their accomplishments and expect others to respect said accomplishments. I don't think I have much patience for the self-effacing hero anymore. I love Vin as a character - my absolute favorite Sanderson hero alongside Dalinar - but I don't think her excessive humbleness is a virtue like Sanderson seems to. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Oct 15, 2022 |
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Oct 15, 2022 19:25
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NikkolasKing posted:Came across a few scattered spoilers about the Storm 5 prologue and Gavilar. Apparently it's only a "working" prologue but seems unlikely it will change substantially before the book comes out. Lotta negative reactions to the great man WOK talks about constantly. (almost done with my reread) I’m surprised to hear there is a lot of negative reaction to the Gavilar we see in Stormlight 5 prologue vs the way everyone remembers him post-death. I think it’s a refreshing take and shows that the memory or legacy of a person isn’t always rooted in reality. I especially like how his quote to Dalinar is interpreted completely differently by Dalinar than by what Gavilar meant
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Oct 15, 2022 19:38
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Jaxyon posted:General cosmere spoiler I knew exactly where he got the name for Yolen from. Looks like me and Sanderson had similar YA fantasy tastes GO ON
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Oct 15, 2022 19:39
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I'm curious if we'll see the prologue on release having been edited to soften the tone with Gavilar somewhat. I think it's accurate, especially after RoW's prologue, but came off not quite right.
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Oct 15, 2022 21:58
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Synesthesian Fetish posted:I’m surprised to hear there is a lot of negative reaction to the Gavilar we see in Stormlight 5 prologue vs the way everyone remembers him post-death. I think it’s a refreshing take and shows that the memory or legacy of a person isn’t always rooted in reality. I especially like how his quote to Dalinar is interpreted completely differently by Dalinar than by what Gavilar meant Well by "negative reactions" I just meant people hate Gavilar, not the writing itself. I'm sorry for not expressing that more clearly. I did see some complaints about turning Gavilar into a cartoon villain but not many. I'm withholding judgment until 1) I finish re-reading the books that are out, and 2) until Storm 5 also comes out. I've never really liked "sample chapters" or anything.
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Oct 15, 2022 22:07
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You know, it occurs to me that. in my two previous runs through TSA, I never read any of the novellas. Neither Edgedance nor Dawnshard. I didn't see many good reviews for DS at least. And I'm not a huge fan of Lift. I don't hate her but a whole book about her?
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Oct 16, 2022 01:59
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NikkolasKing posted:You know, it occurs to me that. in my two previous runs through TSA, I never read any of the novellas. Neither Edgedance nor Dawnshard. I hate her but it's a good novella.
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Oct 16, 2022 02:19
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I love Lift and I love Rysn and I love Edgedancer and I love Dawnshard
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Oct 16, 2022 02:21
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NikkolasKing posted:You know, it occurs to me that. in my two previous runs through TSA, I never read any of the novellas. Neither Edgedance nor Dawnshard. Dawnshard is a top 5 Sanderson book. Edgedancer is fine but skippable if you hate Lift.
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Oct 16, 2022 03:15
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NikkolasKing posted:Came across a few scattered spoilers about the Storm 5 prologue and Gavilar. Apparently it's only a "working" prologue but seems unlikely it will change substantially before the book comes out. Lotta negative reactions to the great man WOK talks about constantly. (almost done with my reread) IM(H)O there is a reason to be sure that heroes have sufficient humility, both in life and in fiction. Because once they start thinking that they're better than other people, and not hesitating to use their great power to achieve their aims regardless of what other, "lesser" people think? They're not heroes anymore. Or at least they really risk turning into what they are often trying to defeat. That's how you get eugenics and fascism, and I think that is in some ways the edge that Kelsier is riding from the very start of the books. Too much confidence in your own ideas, combined with a refusal to listen to anyone else, leads you to extremes. I'm not a horseshoe theory guy, but extreme means for even universally important ends (eg killing half the population to halt global warming) is...well, you read about Taravangian. A big part of what makes him so dangerous on those really smart days is his confidence in being better than everyone else. I don't think that Vin is actually an "excessively humble" hero, and certainly not by the end of Era 1. But watching someone gain confidence is a lot more endearing than watching someone in supposed to be cheering for get their ego permanently knocked down a few pegs (notwithstanding a certain red-headed innkeeper). And it's easier to show a journey of growing confidence when a character starts really low. And and, I think it's just plain true that oftentimes really talented people are shy about or down on their skill, especially when as young as Vin or if they're from backgrounds where sticking out wasn't safe.
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Oct 16, 2022 08:24
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Dawnshard is a top 5 Sanderson book. Both books are good, but if you really hate Lift enough to skip Edgedancer, the main impact of it is to explain why Nale's driving motivation completely changes between main sequence books.
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Oct 16, 2022 10:20
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CK07 posted:IM(H)O there is a reason to be sure that heroes have sufficient humility, both in life and in fiction. Because once they start thinking that they're better than other people, and not hesitating to use their great power to achieve their aims regardless of what other, "lesser" people think? They're not heroes anymore. Or at least they really risk turning into what they are often trying to defeat. That's how you get eugenics and fascism, and I think that is in some ways the edge that Kelsier is riding from the very start of the books. You're not wrong that it is a hard line to tread and that's part of why I like discussing it. Where is the line between a hero having proper levels of confidence vs. being too self-effacing or too prideful? I don't really know, it might depend on the situation. Would anyone but Kelsier have thought up his plans? So, in the end, how could we say he was too prideful? Maybe he had just the right amount of ego. Maybe I should re-read the Trilogy, though. I read TFE more than the other two and that might skew my perception of Vin. Speaking of Kel though and getting into more Cosmere mechanics, Rhythm of War spoilers: When discussing if he's the same person now as he was as a human being, somebody on Reddit maintained Cognitive Shadows are not the same person and this is supported by a character in RoW. They called him Vasher but I think that's Zahel for us non-Warbreker readers. In any event, I don't remember what he said on this subject or if he's an authority.
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Oct 16, 2022 17:36
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aparmenideanmonad posted:Dawnshard is a top 5 Sanderson book. edgedancer's first few pages were my intro to Roshar, and I loved it for the picture of this furiously packed-to-the-gills-with-magic world it painted
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Oct 16, 2022 17:49
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NikkolasKing posted:cognitive shadows so, from the whole extant canon and WoB, cognitive shadows are minds that were so stuffed with investiture upon death that the investiture left an impression in the cognitive plane in the shape of the deceased, like a petrified tree whether that shape still connects with the spiritweb of the deceased is unclear as a RAFO Potato Salad fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 17:57
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NikkolasKing posted:When discussing if he's the same person now as he was as a human being, somebody on Reddit maintained Cognitive Shadows are not the same person and this is supported by a character in RoW. They called him Vasher but I think that's Zahel for us non-Warbreker readers. Vasher is not a cognitive shadow, at least not according to any info we have that I'm aware of. We know he has a lot of breath and we know breath extends life to some extent. He's also a world hopper so he could have other life-extending investiture too.
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Oct 16, 2022 18:57
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Taffer posted:Vasher is not a cognitive shadow, at least not according to any info we have that I'm aware of. We know he has a lot of breath and we know breath extends life to some extent. He's also a world hopper so he could have other life-extending investiture too. all the people Returned to life by Endowment are exactly that, he directly talks about it with Kaladin in RoW I assume that in the spectrum of types of Cognitive Shadows, Vasher is closest to a Herald, since both are directly created, on-purpose, by a Shard. compared to folks like Kelsier that're hanging on because of the power they once held and sheer tenacity (though maybe there's no difference in practicality between the two types) eke out fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 19:03
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NikkolasKing posted:You're not wrong that it is a hard line to tread and that's part of why I like discussing it. Where is the line between a hero having proper levels of confidence vs. being too self-effacing or too prideful? I don't really know, it might depend on the situation. Would anyone but Kelsier have thought up his plans? So, in the end, how could we say he was too prideful? Maybe he had just the right amount of ego. I think it’s easy to be frustrated or tired of the typical “reluctant hero” trope and the line between that and humble hero could blur. But now that I think about that I can’t think of too many reluctant hero tropes in most of Brandon’s books
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Oct 16, 2022 20:19
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eke out posted:all the people Returned to life by Endowment are exactly that, he directly talks about it with Kaladin in RoW Huh, guess my memory of RoW is more hazy than I thought, thanks. I guess I figured actual "cognitive shadows" were like Kelsier after he died or the ghosts on Threnody, I had not realized Heralds were also in that category. Taffer fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Oct 17, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 22:44
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Potato Salad posted:GO ON I'm not sure there's much more to go on. I read a lot of YA fantasy with dragons in in it when I was that age. She's an author.
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Oct 17, 2022 05:24
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okay so Jane Yolen?
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Oct 17, 2022 15:03
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He has said over the years that as a kid he hated reading until a teacher gave him a copy of Dragon's Blood.
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Oct 17, 2022 15:13
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that's really wholesome though
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Oct 17, 2022 16:21
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You know, I don't remember much of RoW. Oh I remember most of the important things, at least in outline, but I mainly just wanted to comment on how Odium discusses building an army. I think he has to have built the mightiest "standard magic users" in the Cosmere. It reminded me how when I first read Sanderson (this would have been just after Oathbringer came out) and I wanted to debate Vin vs. Kaladin. I love Vin but oh man, what a a mismatch. A surgebinder is leagues and leagues stronger than any mistborn. But I guess,as RoW says, if I'm remembering right. this was intentional, the products of millennia of "crafting."
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Oct 17, 2022 22:24
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NikkolasKing posted:A surgebinder is leagues and leagues stronger than any mistborn. Other way around really. A surge binder is better than a misting, or a ferring, and even most twin born. But Compounders are exceptionally strong and full Mistborn are absolute wrecking balls. Scadrial also has far more invested people than Roshar, with misting and ferring powers being common hereditary traits. So its balanced for the upcoming Scardian vs Roshar space war by there being no more mistborn. It'll be a quantity vs quality thing. If you've got 1:50 of your population with a Allomantic power, vs 1:1000000 surgebinder that's a huge advantage toward over all operational victory.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:37
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M_Gargantua posted:Other way around really. A surge binder is better than a misting, or a ferring, and even most twin born. But Compounders are exceptionally strong and full Mistborn are absolute wrecking balls. Scadrial also has far more invested people than Roshar, with misting and ferring powers being common hereditary traits. So its balanced for the upcoming Scardian vs Roshar space war by there being no more mistborn. It'll be a quantity vs quality thing. If you've got 1:50 of your population with a Allomantic power, vs 1:1000000 surgebinder that's a huge advantage toward over all operational victory. Though things can get a little fuzzy as well since now we can transfer Allomantic/Ferrochemic powers In the end, the most powerful of all is hemalurgy
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Oct 17, 2022 22:41
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M_Gargantua posted:Other way around really. A surge binder is better than a misting, or a ferring, and even most twin born. But Compounders are exceptionally strong and full Mistborn are absolute wrecking balls. Scadrial also has far more invested people than Roshar, with misting and ferring powers being common hereditary traits. So its balanced for the upcoming Scardian vs Roshar space war by there being no more mistborn. It'll be a quantity vs quality thing. If you've got 1:50 of your population with a Allomantic power, vs 1:1000000 surgebinder that's a huge advantage toward over all operational victory. The extreme regeneration surgebinders have on its own places them infinitely behind a Mistborn. Vin could never even hope to seriously hurt Kal while he could kill her with one hit. To say nothing of the fact they can honestly fly. Mistborns can only fall with style.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:51
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Radiants all have a slew of emotional problems, kaladin fighting at 100% is different than kaladin having a ptsd breakdown.
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Oct 17, 2022 22:58
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