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silence_kit posted:Staple foods in human diets are staple foods because they are extremely efficient to produce (low $/calorie). This usually correlates with low energy inputs or carbon emissions per food calorie. I wonder what a plot of (GHG Emissions)/(Food Calorie) would look like. emissions from land use and processing after harvest are a thing
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Oct 15, 2022 17:03
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I think the problem veganism faces is that it is an absolute prohibition stemming from a moral ethical root primarily from the natural thought that it is wrong for animals to suffer because of our choices. That’s fine. But we live in a world that is capitalist and modern. So an impulse like that must justify its absolute claim rationally. It’s going to get critiqued rationally. It does have a strong rational argument for individuals to be vegan that holds up. But when it steps into making a universal argument for its absolute prohibition, that’s when it runs into problems. This is to say when vegans present this is why I am vegan that is coherent. But when they make the jump to all society should be vegan that’s becomes different. Universalizing an absolute moral/ethical prohibition that’s never fully coherent, and that’s not a problem specific to veganism, but a general case when that is done ever. So personally I started eating vegan (but not 100% of the time) because of food allergies and intolerances. It is the only way I can guarantee when I’m eating with my wife that both of us won’t get an ingredient that causes us a problem (unless I have cooked myself from scratch). But I also am strongly moved by the critique of our food systems for meat production (as I have direct knowledge of the scale of commodity grain production for animal feed). I also find animal welfare arguments compelling but in a reformist way not a prohibitive one. So this is to say I am not vegan but about half my and my households food consumption is in line with veganism. I think this is something one will see more of in the future especially if meat prices continue to rise. It’s success for the goals of veganism but not complete success, that is, it is reduction without adoption of the absolute prohibition. It’s probably a good trend. But it’s also probably the sublimation of veganism into capital and modernity.
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Oct 15, 2022 19:00
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i think the moral argument is a way stronger one than some dumb graph about emissions or whatever. but i do agree with part of what you said: i think if a vegan really wants to succeed at convincing people, they should A: probably be talking about vegetarianism and B: be talking about reductions rather than abstinence. if you can see "meat is murder" resonating with someone, even a little bit, you should be aiming to convince them that even eating a little less meat or making it not the focus of a meal is a good step. if you want to convince someone to life a healthier lifestyle, you dont tell them to go from 0 to 6 days a week in the gym, you just get them through the front door
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Oct 15, 2022 19:30
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I think you're right that promoting vegetarianism and reduction are the most effective. In terms of moral vs environmental, it seems like with moral arguments you're going to run into lots of people who say (or don't say, but clearly have the revealed preference) "I don't actually care much about certain animals suffering". With environmental arguments you can at least point out that their choices will make the world suck for everyone, including them. If someone doesn't care about chicken suffering at all even the best moral arguments are going to go nowhere.
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Oct 15, 2022 21:44
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For me personally, buying into what is presented by the likes of Greger and nutritionfacts is enough: plant based is healthier than meat based diets. I suspect that selling point would be much stronger to the general population than ethics of animals.
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Oct 15, 2022 22:22
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I’m glad to say that over the past couple years I have successfully completely cut pork out of my diet, and I’m trying to cut down on the amount of poultry I eat. Seeing enough footage of the awful (and disgusting) conditions that factory-farmed pigs are kept in is what directly lead me to stop eating pigs, environmental concerns didn’t really weigh into it at all. I think plastering more footage if what the insides of factory farms look like everywhere will be the most successful in getting people to eat less meat. Remind people that an intelligent animal lived in torturous conditions for its entire life so that you could have that porkchop or chicken sandwich. Sucrose fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 15, 2022 |
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Oct 15, 2022 22:37
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Cheesus posted:plant based is healthier than meat based diets. A impossible burger with vegan cheese is way way less cholesterol than a cheeseburger even if it has similar sat fats.
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Oct 15, 2022 22:54
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Bar Ran Dun posted:A impossible burger with vegan cheese is way way less cholesterol than a cheeseburger even if it has similar sat fats.
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Oct 15, 2022 22:56
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mystes posted:It's not clear whether dietary cholesterol has any significant effect on blood cholesterol levels or otherwise matters at all It was clear for decades, to the point that people stopped doing studies about it because it was proven fact. Since then the only people doing studies are industry-funded and looking to disprove the consensus by using bad methods https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQOXbr_AbOc
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Oct 16, 2022 00:01
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ok that talk seems pretty convincing so far
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Oct 16, 2022 00:11
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Bar Ran Dun posted:A impossible burger with vegan cheese is way way less cholesterol than a cheeseburger even if it has similar sat fats. For example, we always make taco filling with plant based ground "meat". We had a bunch left over the other day so I made myself quesadillas. It was too much for lunch. But for the rest of the day I only felt incredibly full. On the rare occasions I have cooked an actual meat roast and had an abundance of leftovers, a similarly volumed meal, in addition to the fullness, also a kind of "greasy" feeling coming out of my pores. I feel really gross to the point of sometimes taking a rare evening shower. That alone has been enough reason for me to only order out for my maybe once a week real meat dishes.
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Oct 16, 2022 00:49
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Cheesus posted:For me personally, buying into what is presented by the likes of Greger and nutritionfacts is enough: plant based is healthier than meat based diets. maybe. but i dare you to find me something that suggests that all-plant diet is healthier than meat-inclusive Verviticus fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 01:36
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I think the main effect is probably that totally plant based diets tend to be less calorie dense, so with these diets it is harder to overeat and become fat. There’s nothing unhealthy about eating animal products. I think focusing on this is misleading. There are many healthy non-vegan, non-vegetarian diets.
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Oct 16, 2022 02:32
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Cheesus posted:For me personally, buying into what is presented by the likes of Greger and nutritionfacts is enough: plant based is healthier than meat based diets. I agree, but you have to stress the "whole" plant based. veganism isn't necessarily healthier. french fries, potato chips, candy, sugar, oil, etc isn't healthy. Eating a meal of a bag of potato chips and a bunch of candy vs baked fish and broccoli. I liked one of Dr Greger's videos, he said when you talk about food, its always in relation to what? An egg is healthy when you compare it to sausage. But that egg is unhealthy compared to a can of beans. Giving up eating meat in exchange for a high fat, highly processed vegan diet isn't necessarily healthier.
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Oct 16, 2022 03:05
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Verviticus posted:maybe. but i dare you to find me something that suggests that all-plant diet is healthier than meat-inclusive What? Just go to nutionfacts.org, pretty much every scientific study (that isn't funded by meat producers) shows whole plant foods are better for you. Oh, here, from off the top of my memory there is a study that people from Uganda, who eat a mostly plant based diet, have ZERO heart disease. That same demographic moves to the USA and eat a typical standard American diet, and suffers the same amount of heart disease as Americans. Let me google that one. ee: This was the one I was thinking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kAr6iuxuqQ e: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXXXygDRyBU&t=726s ee: USA's number one killer doesn't even exists in areas of the world who eat a plant based diet. Fozzy The Bear fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 03:09
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ok but if you go back re-read what i said you might find i said something other than what you assumedFozzy The Bear posted:I liked one of Dr Greger's videos, he said when you talk about food, its always in relation to what? An egg is healthy when you compare it to sausage. But that egg is unhealthy compared to a can of beans. this is really just a nonsense way of looking at food. with very few exceptions (trans fats, maybe alcohol), virtually every food can be eaten in a way that you can describe as healthy. viewing foods as "healthy" and "unhealthy" in absolutes is one of many ways people start eating disorders
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Oct 16, 2022 03:19
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Fozzy The Bear posted:...who eat a mostly plant based diet, have ZERO heart disease. That same demographic moves to the USA and eat a typical standard American diet... No one is going to defend the typical American diet. But I've never seen any evidence that 100% vegan is healthier than heavily plant based with occasional fish and eggs (or something).
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Oct 16, 2022 03:20
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yeah i would be utterly mindblown if you could show me a plant-based diet that wouldnt be equally healthy or better if you added a couple servings of fish a week to itTrapick posted:I think you're right that promoting vegetarianism and reduction are the most effective. In terms of moral vs environmental, it seems like with moral arguments you're going to run into lots of people who say (or don't say, but clearly have the revealed preference) "I don't actually care much about certain animals suffering". With environmental arguments you can at least point out that their choices will make the world suck for everyone, including them. If someone doesn't care about chicken suffering at all even the best moral arguments are going to go nowhere. i think the kind of person who can explicitly wave that away will probably not accept that their personal choice to stop eating meat is going to attenuate or mitigate the harmful ecological effects of doing so (at least to themselves) edit: given every option available to us today, a pescetarian diet or maybe even an omnivorous one with small amounts of lean red meat, small to moderate poultry, moderate fish and high plant consumption is probably the healthiest one Verviticus fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 03:21
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Fozzy The Bear posted:What? Just go to nutionfacts.org, pretty much every scientific study (that isn't funded by meat producers) shows whole plant foods are better for you. You accuse nutritional studies which don't conclude that vegan/vegetarian diets are the best of having ideological bias, and in the same post link to a website and videos from a guy who has an obvious pro-veganism bias . . . of course he is going to interpret/cherry-pick often inconclusive nutritional data/studies in a way to support his favorite diet. silence_kit fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 03:27
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Trapick posted:100% vegan is healthier than heavily plant based with occasional fish and eggs (or something). Verviticus posted:maybe. but i dare you to find me something that suggests that all-plant diet is healthier than meat-inclusive Of course, that's not what I said either. You eat mostly whole plant based diet, with the occasion meat, is for all in tents and porpoises the same thing. The goal for health is to make the whole plants the bulk of your daily diet and you are good to go. What you eat on occasion has must less impact, than what you eat day in and day out. Its like when you are trying to lose weight, and one day a week you sneak in a donut, it doesn't really effect you, because the rest of the week you are eating healthily.
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Oct 16, 2022 03:27
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heck, i can eat a couple donuts a day and still pretty easily lose weight and also get all the nutrients i need in a day edit: i know it was unintentional but you quoted trapick in an unbelievably poor way, hahahha Verviticus fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 03:28
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Verviticus posted:edit: i know it was unintentional but you quoted trapick in an unbelievably poor way, hahahha That was intentional 
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Oct 16, 2022 03:32
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I don't think that there is any real expectation from the vegan posters that the world is going to suddenly go vegan. In New Zealand 50% of our climate emissions output is from agriculture, dairy farming is a problem so I disagree with the suggestion that we should push vegetarianism. As far as the moral/ethical question, I don't think I am particularly judgemental. A long time ago I asked myself what I believed and compared the answer to how I acted. I felt that it wasn't acceptable so I changed my behaviour to match my personal standards. From what I have observed, introspection like that makes some people uncomfortable. The conversation has drifted from the original proposition, which is fine. The first post was well thought out with a reasonable amount of cited information on "Why you should go vegan" and the majority of the dissent has been suggesting that society isn't particularly interested in doing so. Which is fair.
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Oct 16, 2022 03:35
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Verviticus posted:i think the moral argument is a way stronger one than some dumb graph about emissions or whatever. but i do agree with part of what you said: i think if a vegan really wants to succeed at convincing people, they should A: probably be talking about vegetarianism and B: be talking about reductions rather than abstinence. if you can see "meat is murder" resonating with someone, even a little bit, you should be aiming to convince them that even eating a little less meat or making it not the focus of a meal is a good step. if you want to convince someone to life a healthier lifestyle, you dont tell them to go from 0 to 6 days a week in the gym, you just get them through the front door Who has suggested that people need to immediately shift all meals to 100% veganism? I feel that this is a bit of a strawman. Myself, and most other people who I know who have gone vegan, have done so gradually over time, just as someone who starts exercising would start exercising occasionally. Vegan outreach usually focuses on "try going vegan for 7 days!" or 1 day or 30 days or 1 meal. I've often seen it suggested to try doing one vegan meal per week. Or even just trying an individual item, like the impossible burger. Or, alternatively, you can gradually cut things out of your diet, like beef or pork, or dairy, or whatever. Here are some examples, from vegan.com https://vegan.com/info/try-vegan/ https://vegan.com/info/how/ quote:Stepping Stones Toward a Vegan Diet Maybe there's some confusion between the principle and the practice. If I tell someone that, in principle, exercising for 30 minutes each day is always healthy, that does not mean that I'm telling them that they have to start a practice of always exercising for 30 minutes every day. If I'm saying, "this is a good thing", then any amount of exercise is a good thing. In the same way, if I say that veganism is a good thing that reduces harm, that does not mean I'm saying they have to immediately go to veganism for every meal. Doing one vegan meal a week would also be good, just like doing one 30 minute workout session per week would also be good. It feels like it's the non-vegans who are making this much more of a black & white thing than the vegans.
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Oct 16, 2022 03:47
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Fozzy The Bear posted:Of course...You eat mostly...meat...for health...the bulk of your daily diet [is]...donut[s], ...you are eating healthily. Fozzy The Bear posted:That was intentional
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Oct 16, 2022 03:47
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Trapick posted:Two can play at that game.  I think if you could only eat meat after you killed the animal yourself, there would be so many more vegans.
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Oct 16, 2022 04:29
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XboxPants posted:Who has suggested that people need to immediately shift all meals to 100% veganism? I feel that this is a bit of a strawman. what the hell are you responding to this? quote:but i do agree with part of what you said: i think if a vegan really wants to succeed at convincing people, they should A: probably be talking about vegetarianism and B: be talking about reductions rather than abstinence.
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Oct 16, 2022 04:33
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Verviticus posted:what the hell are you responding to Yes, that. If I butcher your post, you say something like: "i think if a vegan really wants to succeed at convincing people, they should be talking about reductions rather than abstinence." And my response is that vegans do talk about reduction, rather than abstinence. This makes me question who you're targeting that advice towards, if not towards vegans that you think are advocating abstinence. And then I'm calling that a strawman since I don't see those people. edit: Oh and also: Verviticus posted:if you want to convince someone to life a healthier lifestyle, you dont tell them to go from 0 to 6 days a week in the gym, you just get them through the front door XboxPants posted:Who has suggested that people need to immediately shift all meals to 100% veganism? I feel that this is a bit of a strawman. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Oct 16, 2022 |
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Oct 16, 2022 04:40
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im talking to the guy that i responded to and i am agreeing with him
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Oct 16, 2022 04:48
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Fozzy The Bear posted:veganism isn't necessarily healthier. french fries, potato chips, candy, sugar, oil, etc isn't healthy. The biggest misconception I brought into my first relationship with a vegetarian was that it was more vegan and of course they ate healthier than I did. I learned very quickly about "junk food vegetarianism" and some just plain ignorance ("well Kosher means vegetarian"). I went into my second such relationship thinking "Surely this one eats better" and was only slightly more surprised to find they were worse ("I don't like the texture of fruit" "what kind of fruit? Prepared in a what way?" "Any and all fruit that is not in a fruit roll-up like form"). Despite that I have embraced a largely fresh fruit and vegetables, minimally processed plant based diet for myself. And I can feel a pretty big difference in how I feel when I stick to that versus a sustained period of a typical American diet.
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Oct 16, 2022 13:18
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Trapick posted:I think you're right that promoting vegetarianism and reduction are the most effective. In terms of moral vs environmental, it seems like with moral arguments you're going to run into lots of people who say (or don't say, but clearly have the revealed preference) "I don't actually care much about certain animals suffering". With environmental arguments you can at least point out that their choices will make the world suck for everyone, including them. If someone doesn't care about chicken suffering at all even the best moral arguments are going to go nowhere. Environmental arguments being more effective isn't automatically an indicator of selfishness. Someone might value the environment for supporting future generations, or for its own sake and for the preservation of wild animal species without necessarily being very concerned about individual farm animals suffering.
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Oct 16, 2022 15:39
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suck my woke dick posted:Environmental arguments being more effective isn't automatically an indicator of selfishness. Someone might value the environment for supporting future generations, or for its own sake and for the preservation of wild animal species without necessarily being very concerned about individual farm animals suffering.
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Oct 16, 2022 17:30
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A vegan promoting reduction through things like "Meatless Mondays" is like a child welfare advocate promoting abuse reduction with "No Touch Tuesdays". Sure you can argue there's a reduction of harm in absolute terms but it misses the point of the moral argument.
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Oct 16, 2022 21:52
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DrBox posted:A vegan promoting reduction through things like "Meatless Mondays" is like a child welfare advocate promoting abuse reduction with "No Touch Tuesdays". Yeah but when you do what you’re doing in this post, you are behaving in a religious way. I don’t think that’s always bad btw. But doing that is a very different argument when ones points it at society. It’s off putting to the people that aren’t inherently inclined. It establishes in groups and out groups and becomes a shibboleth.
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Oct 16, 2022 22:29
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Yeah but when you do what you’re doing in this post, you are behaving in a religious way. I don’t think that’s always bad btw. Why is taking a moral stand on something viewed as "behaving in a religious way"? I can acknowledge there are systemic issues while still promoting the idea that we should avoid engaging in systems of oppression where we are able to. Before I went vegan I did not view people protesting the dog meat trade or those arguing against dog fighting as religious zealots. They were people that cared about the same animals I do. The religious ones are the ones that cannot see past social conditioning and understand that the lines between "food animal" and "companion animal" are arbitrary and the morally consistent view should be to not exploit animals where possible regardless of species. There is dogma around not pushing any personal accountability at all. We live in a society therefore we cannot judge any choices anyone makes.
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Oct 16, 2022 22:41
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lol you compared eating meat to child molestation and then posted that. Lmao.
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Oct 16, 2022 22:45
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Bar Ran Dun posted:lol you compared eating meat to child molestation and then posted that. Two situations where sentient beings with no moral agency are harmed and exploited, yeah. You understand I'm not comparing the victims right? I'm only showing that asking a vegan to start promoting harming animals less rather than altogether makes no sense. We can change it from child molestation to dog loving if that helps the analogy.
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Oct 16, 2022 22:49
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DrBox posted:Two situations where sentient beings with no moral agency are harmed and exploited, yeah. You understand I'm not comparing the victims right? I'm only showing that asking a vegan to start promoting harming animals less rather than altogether makes no sense. We can change it from child molestation to dog loving if that helps the analogy. The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Why You Should Go Vegan: We can change it from child molestation to dog loving
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Oct 16, 2022 22:51
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Yeah you’re not going to be particularly effective like that outside of the already vegan. You can be dismissed in the same way a prohibition against eating pork might be might be for folks who aren’t Muslims. Once it’s a moral absolute you’ve got problems unless it’s a moral absolute shared by most of society.
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Oct 16, 2022 23:00
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| # ? May 30, 2024 22:39 |
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DrBox posted:Two situations where sentient beings with no moral agency are harmed and exploited, yeah. You understand I'm not comparing the victims right? I'm only showing that asking a vegan to start promoting harming animals less rather than altogether makes no sense. We can change it from child molestation to dog loving if that helps the analogy. I think I understand where you're coming from. But, I think there's some middle ground, so let me ask you this. Let's say a co-worker, relative, etc., who knows that you're vegan comes up to you. They say they'd like to try going vegan, but they think it will be too hard to completely shift up their whole lifestyle so quickly. They ask you for advice on how to make the transition smoother, so they can stick with it rather than just burning out, which has happened to them before. They ask if it's okay to make the move gradually, rather than cutting animal products out cold-turkey. What do you suggest to them?
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Oct 16, 2022 23:08
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