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The last of the big three books for Scion, Scion: God, is live on... BackerKit. So that's nice. https://www.backerkit.com/c/onyx-path/scion-god
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Oct 18, 2022 21:31
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The Human Oroboros didn't do well in test markets.
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Oct 18, 2022 22:02
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Soonmot posted:But with tzimisce around, you really don't want to see rear end to rear end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozezG1zpxXQ
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Oct 18, 2022 22:48
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love this guy's songs
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Oct 18, 2022 23:17
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Dawgstar posted:The last of the big three books for Scion, Scion: God, is live on... BackerKit. So that's nice. https://www.backerkit.com/c/onyx-path/scion-god That's....really weird! I didn't know Backerkit even did crowdfunding
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Oct 19, 2022 04:00
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wasn't there the thing with the monastery full of vampires all bound together in a circle and when one of them accidentally got set on fire the whole place collapsed in an orgy of violence
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Oct 19, 2022 04:17
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tesseract posted:Saaaay, any of the published books ever cover Glasgow? Shadow over the UK, for the nWoD first edition. Mostly Werewolf focused but includes stuff for all gribblies. We never did get a thrid Shadows over X book, huh. Just Mexico and the UK.
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Oct 19, 2022 06:33
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Blockhouse posted:That's....really weird! I didn't know Backerkit even did crowdfunding They just started getting into it. It's been a topic of discussion for a few months in the crowdfunding and industry threads.
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Oct 19, 2022 11:10
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Soonmot posted:But with tzimisce around, you really don't want to see rear end to rear end
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Oct 19, 2022 11:51
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tesseract posted:Yeah, those are much better described reasons for why it's a Bad Idea. I just though it was strangely written. There are multiple layers to this, too. Kindred society relies on everyone being a miserable piece of poo poo and they all actively work to drag each other down. A power couple that could provide (insofar as vampires are capable) love and support for each other would be a threat to the spite-based power structures everyone else relied on, and it would throw a spotlight on just how lonely and hateful everyone's life was, so of course the harpies and anyone in power would have a vested interest in casting it in a bad light and trying to sabotage it or prevent people from doing it. That's not to say a two-way bond wouldn't lead to destructive codependency. There are some good (if unnecessarily gross) descriptions of life under Vinculum in the nwod 1e Ghouls book. Picturing that as a two way street that neither party could opt out of is terrifying.
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Oct 19, 2022 13:29
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Blockhouse posted:That's....really weird! I didn't know Backerkit even did crowdfunding It helpfully sidesteps any issues one might have with Kickstarter since even now as NFTs and related fall further and further from relevance KS keeps going "well... maybe."
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Oct 19, 2022 14:12
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Blockhouse posted:That's....really weird! I didn't know Backerkit even did crowdfunding Yeah. There's an opening for alternative crowdfunding sites since people are getting sick of Kickstarter for plenty of reasons (including the NFT stuff everyone already mentioned). As a third party Kickstarter add-on, BackerKit's just the best place to move to while retaining as many Kickstarter backers as possible.
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Oct 19, 2022 16:38
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worm girl posted:There are multiple layers to this, too. Kindred society relies on everyone being a miserable piece of poo poo and they all actively work to drag each other down. The kindred condition is being a miserable piece of poo poo. Either you accept what you are, which is an inhuman monster who survives directly on stolen life and misery, or you deny what you are, imposing an additional layer of suffering and martyrdom on yourself, while still being an inhuman monster who survives directly on stolen life and misery. The blood bond isn't 'love,' though that's what domitors tell naive little neonates to coax them into accepting it. It's a pathetic, overwhelming desire to please the other person. It's 'I'm sorry I made you mad enough to hit me, here, I'll hit myself to save you the trouble.' It's 'you looked at somebody else today, I must not be good enough anymore, I'll do anything to make you happy.' It's toxic. It's abusive. It's manipulative. So two people doing that to each other out of 'love' is incredibly sick and twisted. Two people doing that to attempt to inure themselves against blood bonds to other Kindred is both sick, twisted, and frightening. There are no happy endings for the Kindred.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:03
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To be fair, Vampires being horrible pieces of poo poo isn't inherent or inevitable and probably has more to do with the immortality - vampires don't have to be inherently predatory and vanishingly few of them asked to be what they are. The top rungs of the humanity track do exist. All of that matters because if vampires are "just monsters" and can never be anything else then the game isn't a tragedy, it's just... a story about miserable inhuman people who hopefully all get set on fire at some point. Not that mutual blood bonds are made a particularly good idea because of that, but I think it's thematically necessary the miserable-piece-of-poo poo-ness is socially constructed and not just what happens to you when you get bit out of cosmic law.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:01
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spectralent posted:To be fair, Vampires being horrible pieces of poo poo isn't inherent or inevitable and probably has more to do with the immortality - vampires don't have to be inherently predatory and vanishingly few of them asked to be what they are. The top rungs of the humanity track do exist. All of that matters because if vampires are "just monsters" and can never be anything else then the game isn't a tragedy, it's just... a story about miserable inhuman people who hopefully all get set on fire at some point. They totally do, though, as killing multiple mortals to feed is a thing that just happens as they get older. All vampires inevitably are drawn toward being pieces of poo poo by necessity, it just becomes harder and harder to actively not be a piece of poo poo with age and experience. In V5 you can be a complete piece of poo poo with high humanity, it all depends on the chronicle tenets and your convictions. The battle is not to not be a piece of poo poo, the battle is to hold on to your psyche and continue to be your rational self in the face of the forever hungry, purely instinctual, and mindless Beast.
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Oct 19, 2022 20:46
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The blood bond and vampiric condition is whatever you want it to be because it's not real and you make it up, hope that helps OP
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Oct 19, 2022 22:32
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tatankatonk posted:The blood bond and vampiric condition is whatever you want it to be because it's not real and you make it up, hope that helps OP No it has to be what it says in the book otherwise your not playing proper vampire 
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Oct 20, 2022 01:37
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tatankatonk posted:The blood bond and vampiric condition is whatever you want it to be because it's not real and you make it up, hope that helps OP Sure yeah, but the book presents ideas so that you get value out of having bought a book other authors already thought about instead of making everything up on your own, and the stuff it suggests about perversion is framed in the same context as the stuff it suggests about the blood bond. If you decide to use the stuff, then the one part explains where the other part is coming from is all. Personally I tend to lean towards a) not being super absolutist about how lovely the vampiric condition is, the practical realities are stressful and dysfunctional enough that there's no need to ram it home with universal declarations, and b) mutual blood bonds being a dysfunctional and kind of scary idea for the same reason normal blood bonds are a dysfunctional and kind of scary idea. Not only is a somewhat unpredictable and unhealthy blood bond still plenty useful enough for being something you don't need to invest any experience or character building into accessing, but the idea of vampires being able to inflict a healthy, well-adjusted, "pure" love and devotion on people at will with the blood bond is arguably even scarier to me than the hosed up dysfunctional one.
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Oct 20, 2022 02:14
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worm girl posted:There are multiple layers to this, too. Kindred society relies on everyone being a miserable piece of poo poo and they all actively work to drag each other down. A power couple that could provide (insofar as vampires are capable) love and support for each other would be a threat to the spite-based power structures everyone else relied on, and it would throw a spotlight on just how lonely and hateful everyone's life was, so of course the harpies and anyone in power would have a vested interest in casting it in a bad light and trying to sabotage it or prevent people from doing it. i like this read thank you it never really occurred to me to want to do a mutual blood bond because that requires an outrageously trusting relationship and i've never made a vampire PC that was capable of that level of seemingly bottomless trust for anybody
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Oct 20, 2022 05:56
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There's a whole Sabbat path referenced in the book that's called the Dark Union where the vampire believes that both Caine and Lilith were the parents of all kindred and that they're the ultimate power couple you should aspire to be like. Someone made a fan Loresheet for the cult that's pretty decent and yeah, part of the power structures of the abilities are that you're in a mutual bond with someone that you both rely on but also benefit from.
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Oct 20, 2022 06:29
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Fuzz posted:There's a whole Sabbat path referenced in the book that's called the Dark Union where the vampire believes that both Caine and Lilith were the parents of all kindred and that they're the ultimate power couple you should aspire to be like. Someone made a fan Loresheet for the cult that's pretty decent and yeah, part of the power structures of the abilities are that you're in a mutual bond with someone that you both rely on but also benefit from. Do you know what book this is in or can you post the fan creation? It sounds very intriguing.
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Oct 20, 2022 07:07
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It's definitely a lot more interesting to have the theoretical option that you CAN make it work, but the reality is you almost certainly won't.
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Oct 20, 2022 07:20
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spectralent posted:To be fair, Vampires being horrible pieces of poo poo isn't inherent or inevitable and probably has more to do with the immortality - vampires don't have to be inherently predatory and vanishingly few of them asked to be what they are. The top rungs of the humanity track do exist. All of that matters because if vampires are "just monsters" and can never be anything else then the game isn't a tragedy, it's just... a story about miserable inhuman people who hopefully all get set on fire at some point. They absolutely are inevitably horrible pieces of poo poo and can only survive by taking advantage of weak mortals and stealing the literal life from them. For such a creature, it is immoral and self-indulgent to continue living in any capacity and they must all be destroyed. Even the high humanity vampires are wrong and weird. The humanity rating is not good versus evil, it's human versus not, and a 10 humanity vampire is not a super good guy, it's a bizarre hyperhuman that is maybe even more alien than a 2 humanity vampire. Understandably, a lot of people don't want to play in such a game (and NWOD 2e, mistakenly in my opinion, attempts to downplay this), which is why I presented the alternative interpretation, which I think will still land even if you're playing in a world where vampires are more of a neutral force that tends bad. My preference is for the former, but lots of people play the latter and, this being tabletop, both are valid. Ghost Leviathan posted:It's definitely a lot more interesting to have the theoretical option that you CAN make it work, but the reality is you almost certainly won't. If your group shies away from the idea that individual vampires are always going to wind up being black holes that ruin the world, you can still point to kindred society as the problem. One guy can tell the difference between right and wrong and try to do more good than bad, but a competitive zero-sum game where capital is literally the blood of the innocent cannot possibly work out well on the balance. That's kinda the Disco Elysium take and it's still pretty cool. Anne Rice, who wrote the book on this poo poo, has vampires who truly aspire to do good and make something of their immortality, but the world inevitably beats them down or deforms their ideals. Gothic as hell and definitely fun to explore. worm girl fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 15:25
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Yeah, I mean, it's fine if you want to make your own vampire mythos where someone who needs to drink human blood somehow isn't predatory, but the vampire lore in general is pretty clear that vampires are, in fact, inherently predatory and parasitic, generally walking metaphors for corruption, and WoD/CoD in specific has them supernaturally so. The Beast is a thing in both of them, and oWoD, WoD and CoD are all three very explicitly 'you're a monster, now what are you going to do? Can you be just a little bit monsterous to avoid being completely monsterous? Can you, dare I say, be a beast, to avoid being a beast?' Hell, even Golconda isn't 'become an enlightened being of goodness,' it's 'reconcile yourself to your monstrousness.'
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Oct 20, 2022 18:12
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Vampires aren’t great but vampire society is what makes them always garbage. I don’t think it’s impossible for a vampire to improve the world around them enough to offset the negative of their diet, it’s just *nearly* impossible given the context they’re in.
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Oct 20, 2022 18:24
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worm girl posted:They absolutely are inevitably horrible pieces of poo poo and can only survive by taking advantage of weak mortals and stealing the literal life from them. Yeah, but guess what: that is also true of weak mortals. People cannot survive without the expenditure of the limited but, thankfully, regenerating-by-the-day life force of other people. Agriculture, construction, health care, education, logistics, service, and just plain offering a shoulder to cry on consumes muscle, brain, and nerve that can only be restored through rest and consumption. Does someone who has to crash on their cousin's house need to die? Maybe it's okay because it's only at temporary situation and they can eventually get a job and become self-supporting. Then how about someone who's disabled and needs constant care?
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Oct 20, 2022 18:33
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Vampires are a pretty flexible metaphor. There are a lot of different ways you can play them.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:18
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, but guess what: that is also true of weak mortals. People cannot survive without the expenditure of the limited but, thankfully, regenerating-by-the-day life force of other people. Agriculture, construction, health care, education, logistics, service, and just plain offering a shoulder to cry on consumes muscle, brain, and nerve that can only be restored through rest and consumption. Does someone who has to crash on their cousin's house need to die? Maybe it's okay because it's only at temporary situation and they can eventually get a job and become self-supporting. Then how about someone who's disabled and needs constant care? I think you might want to go back to the drawing board and rethink your thesis about how disabled people are the same as vampires, due to how stupid and offensive it is.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:26
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worm girl posted:I think you might want to go back to the drawing board and rethink your thesis about how disabled people are the same as vampires. It is abominably stupid and offensive. Maybe you should rethink yours about conspiracies of inhuman parasites who must needs be put to the sword? Disability is a political category that revolves almost entirely about whether you're capable of holding down a job, i.e. generating a profit for some capitalist somewhere. I'm not (yet) in it because I'm not that old and the glasses I need to function are (relatively) cheap and easy to procure. But eventually, as I age, I'm going to become less and less able to get by without constant donations of time and energy from others... and that's just on the immediate, interpersonal level. Even as an """able-bodied""" adult I can only survive thanks to the expended labor-power of countless agricultural workers, technicians, truck drivers, and so on. So where are the unimpeachable paragons who don't survive off the vitality of others and therefore get to live? Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Oct 20, 2022 |
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Oct 20, 2022 19:32
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worm girl posted:I think you might want to go back to the drawing board and rethink your thesis about how disabled people are the same as vampires, due to how stupid and offensive it is. This, what the gently caress.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:33
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He's digging in, folks, and he won't rest until we've got equal rights for vampires.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:38
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I'm not comparing disabled people to vampires. I'm comparing people to vampires (and also pointing out that "disabled" is an ideological category that we will all one day fall into if we don't already). Someone who can't walk or feed themselves, whether due to age or illness, is an obvious and interpersonal example of someone who needs others to survive... but, in fact, everyone needs others to survive. Are you a libertarian or something?
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Oct 20, 2022 19:39
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Ferrinus posted:Yeah, but guess what: that is also true of weak mortals. People cannot survive without the expenditure of the limited but, thankfully, regenerating-by-the-day life force of other people. Agriculture, construction, health care, education, logistics, service, and just plain offering a shoulder to cry on consumes muscle, brain, and nerve that can only be restored through rest and consumption. Does someone who has to crash on their cousin's house need to die? Maybe it's okay because it's only at temporary situation and they can eventually get a job and become self-supporting. Then how about someone who's disabled and needs constant care? So, to sum up, you think that disabled people are 'weak.' You think people with unstable housing are 'weak.' And you think that society choosing to show compassion to people who need assistance is somehow the same as obligate hemovores with high likelyhoods to frenzy and kill people. I mean, I'm partially deaf, and I've never once hurt somebody in order to prevent myself from becoming fully deaf. A beast I am, lest a beast I become. Maybe that's just because I'm weak?
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Oct 20, 2022 19:42
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Going to go walk into the sun because I was born without both hands. Bye everyone! e: just got sunburnt
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Oct 20, 2022 19:42
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worm girl posted:He's digging in, folks, and he won't rest until we've got equal rights for vampires. Of course vampires should have equal rights, they're people.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:44
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Disabled people don't usually mug you for your blood or go around enslaving mortals. And vampires aren't real.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:45
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ferrinus, you've been here long enough to know that worm girl thinks the only valid vampire playstyle is being totally miserable ad monstrous 24/7, why are you engaging when there's no debate that will change their mind?
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Oct 20, 2022 19:45
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Soonmot posted:ferrinus, you've been here long enough to know that worm girl thinks the only valid vampire playstyle is being totally miserable ad monstrous 24/7, why are you engaging when there's no debate that will change their mind?
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Oct 20, 2022 19:49
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TheCenturion posted:So, to sum up, you think that disabled people are 'weak.' You think people with unstable housing are 'weak.' And you think that society choosing to show compassion to people who need assistance is somehow the same as obligate hemovores with high likelyhoods to frenzy and kill people. No, I think mortals are weak. "Weak mortals" was worm girl's phrasing; I am throwing it back at them. Everyone needs the energy of other people to survive, and has no choice in the matter. worm girl posted:Disabled people don't usually mug you for your blood or go around enslaving mortals. And vampires aren't real. No, but what people (disabled or otherwise) do do is require the expenditure and consumption of other people's life force to continue functioning. So it's not valid to condemn vampires to some sort of abysmal "your only moral action is to commit suicide, but you won't do that because you're SELFISH" moral nadir because they can only survive at cost to others. News flash, comrade! YOU can only survive at cost to others! Soonmot posted:ferrinus, you've been here long enough to know that worm girl thinks the only valid vampire playstyle is being totally miserable ad monstrous 24/7, why are you engaging when there's no debate that will change their mind? I don't care about changing any specific, named poster's mind; if I did I would PM them rather than posting in public.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:49
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| # ? Jun 6, 2024 14:15 |
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Please do not take your disagreements on the correct interpretation of the canonical lore and rules and guidelines of this roleplaying game and turn it into a gross fight about the social dynamics of human interdependency in the real world, especially if it leads you to comparing the relationship between a person with disabilities and the people who love them enough to help care for them to the relationship between a parasite and its host. I understand that you may not consider the canonical relationship of kindred to humans as parasitic. I do not know if that is a valid interpretation or not, and really I don't care. I want this gross slapfight to stop. Can you just both agree that you don't have compatible interpretations of the lore and leave it at that?
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Oct 20, 2022 19:50
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