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JamesKPolk posted:oh no sorry I meant the legal stuff w/ stickying threads (I probably shouldn't have copied the whole post lol). I didn't really understand the point you were making and was hoping you'd go into it more - would you mind? If not (and especially if it doesn't matter for this) then nvm and no worries I read that whole qcs thread and Jeffrey more or less said that's why it got unstickied. theoretically and ianal, a Patreon donor who found out the funds were being mismanaged could sue SA for endorsing it. would that lawsuit actually stick? probably not, but it would cost SA a bunch of time and legal fees because you can sue anybody for anything. now that it's officially unendorsed, a judge would be way more likely to toss a suit right at the beginning so my preference for having some degree of offsite organizing is that it shields SA from liability and also ensures discussion stays focused and outside of forums/mod drama theflyingexecutive has issued a correction as of 06:17 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 06:14
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theflyingexecutive posted:I read that whole qcs thread and Jeffrey more or less said that's why it got unstickied. theoretically and ianal, a Patreon donor who found out the funds were being mismanaged could sue SA for endorsing it. would that lawsuit actually stick? probably not, but it would cost SA a bunch of time and legal fees because you can sue anybody for anything. now that it's officially unendorsed, a judge would be way more likely to toss a suit right at the beginning Just so no one takes this as fact. Jeffrey has one post in that thread and it does not address the sticky in any way: quote:Well I have more to say on this all but I'm just going to skip forward and say "no loving way". gently caress that. No one on my staff has permission from to me act as volunteer financial auditors for some goon mutual aid fund. That is way beyond the scope of a forums admin's responsibilities. Either the goonfund exists without volunteer audits from the forums staff, or it doesn't exist at all. Those are the two paths.
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Oct 19, 2022 12:08
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bumping this up a page so there's visibility for anyone who has opinions on this stuff for next steps. hoping to move forward today speng31b posted:just so it's clear, the topics open for discussion now are as follows.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:02
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speaking as someone who would like to help but does not want to self-dox (and also would contribute to this fund if it ever gets off the ground lol) i don't have any issues with any of the people who have put their names in the ring as going onto the public documents. as far as overall structure goes i am strongly in favor of a nonprofit. setting up another one person pass-through is, like, lol come on now, and setting up a joint bank account seems too risky from a tax perspective. just my own opinion obviously. short of putting my irl name on documents is there anything i could to do help/contribute?
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Oct 19, 2022 17:08
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Agreed with everything there. The people who have volunteered are good, making it a nonprofit is for the best. Also I think that this should be entirely on the forums because discord is a hot mess for any kind of transparency imo especially long-term.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:15
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lobster shirt posted:setting up a joint bank account seems too risky from a tax perspective. just my own opinion obviously. from what I can tell each bank has different rules about non incorporated joint accounts, but it's not so much a tax issue as a setup issue. from a tax standpoint there still needs to be a primary account holder who would assume the liability. but finding a bank that'll let you set up a joint account with all the people you want in the way you want without a ton of overhead can be a pain. lobster shirt posted:short of putting my irl name on documents is there anything i could to do help/contribute? i think just volunteering to be a member of the group interested in discussing how to set things up going forward would be useful. the ukmt constitution is a little too focused on "thread membership" as the criteria for who gets to decide on structure and rules changes later on, and that doesn't seem appropriate here, so we were kicking around the idea of just anyone who's interested self selecting as a "member" for that stuff.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:15
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yeah i think the uk fund had to limit itself more specifically just cuz most people on sa are american
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Oct 19, 2022 17:18
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I know little/nothing about these matters but I want to voice more support for the 501c3 route. Even if it's slow to spin up it looks like the safest/most stable in the long term which imo outweighs the benefits of the other options. If this is seriously going to be a fund that brings in and distributes thousands per month stability should be a top priority for the sake of both donors and recipients.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:25
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My vote is also for the 501 c3 route. I believe most board members are on the same page with this.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:32
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personally I don't have a lot of issue with this being hashed out in realtime on the discord as long as the discord is open for anyone that wants to see the discussion. Does discord have an export feature? Dumping the chat to a pastebin or something and posting it here would, I think, give the best combination of speed and transparency for the least amount of effort. also +1 on the 501c3. I'm willing to donate both towards the fund (once its established) and the filing fee(s)
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Oct 19, 2022 17:38
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lobster shirt posted:speaking as someone who would like to help but does not want to self-dox (and also would contribute to this fund if it ever gets off the ground lol) i don't have any issues with any of the people who have put their names in the ring as going onto the public documents. We were having discussions about having the commitee either be separate from the board or the committee being an extension of it - so that way people are able to still be a part of this without having to worry about their information being out there.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:40
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and yeah regarding thread membership for whatever, i think that is a little silly. SA-wide mutual aid is a good principle to hold to but there's no reason to limit it to particular threads or forums. i am not a law expert or anything but given the potential for increased compliance/kyc stuff for money going outside the US, which would also mean additional costs, it might be best to keep donations to people within the US. but i don't know, maybe that's overthinking it. something to ask a lawyer about though!
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Oct 19, 2022 17:41
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:also +1 on the 501c3. I'm willing to donate both towards the fund (once its established) and the filing fee(s) yeah if yall need money for filing fees i would be happy to kick into that
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Oct 19, 2022 17:41
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the membership thing is also to handle who gets to have a vote on things; even if you want to limit voting to cspam posters you can still have the ability to give to any goon. personally id be fine with any american goon being considered a "member" for voting and such purposes, but i could understand a desire to focus more on a sense of community ownership based in cspam as a way to foster trust and what have you. i don't really know of a compelling argument one way or another tho.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:50
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lobster shirt posted:and yeah regarding thread membership for whatever, i think that is a little silly. SA-wide mutual aid is a good principle to hold to but there's no reason to limit it to particular threads or forums. i am not a law expert or anything but given the potential for increased compliance/kyc stuff for money going outside the US, which would also mean additional costs, it might be best to keep donations to people within the US. but i don't know, maybe that's overthinking it. something to ask a lawyer about though! i agree with everything in this post. Plinkey's thread had a banner ad running at one point across the forums, I'd like to do that for this fund once its going.
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Oct 19, 2022 17:53
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Tiler Kiwi posted:the membership thing is also to handle who gets to have a vote on things; even if you want to limit voting to cspam posters you can still have the ability to give to any goon. i like the idea someone had of voting on changes to rules or structure being open to anyone who self selects as a member. I think demonstrating interest to the extent of just saying "yeah I'd like to sign up to participate in this" is enough to be able to vote on how it should work
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Oct 19, 2022 17:54
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as far as sending money outside the US, yeah that is technically legal but a whole can of worms we wouldn't want to think about opening until it was proven the basics were working for well for awhile
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Oct 19, 2022 17:55
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speng31b posted:on a related note, it feels like most people are in favor of the incorporating a 501c3 route, but discussion should still be okay (for a short time) on the pros and cons any of the possibilities below: As someone who would just be donating I'd vote for the actual registered non-profit since the goal of this project was to avoid some of the pitfalls of the other one. Like I also don't see this as a replacement or end of the other goonbucks, just a fork. The same way I can both chip in some cash to someone I trust posting a "hey this person needs help, here's their cashapp/paypal" and to formal orgs. I also don't think there should be some "priority for my posting pals" aspect. First come, first served makes the most sense for getting people aid when they need it. If there's some weird trend of "we keep getting 0 post alt accounts draining the coffers" we can cross the bridge of adding criteria or blocking that.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:01
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it sounds like the consensus is i should start filing paperwork and poo poo for a 501c3 today. i live in Washington, any reason not to file here? any other thoughts/objections?
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Oct 19, 2022 18:01
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speng31b posted:i like the idea someone had of voting on changes to rules or structure being open to anyone who self selects as a member. I think demonstrating interest to the extent of just saying "yeah I'd like to sign up to participate in this" is enough to be able to vote on how it should work The reason we have to define a ‘member’ for the intent of the program is that we intend to allow the community to be a part of decision making. If we do not have a strictly definable ‘member’ class then it would be impossible to hold a vote. For a specific example, we’re currently considering for a dissolution clause that would require 2/3rds of ‘members’ to vote for dissolution. Determining the 2/3rds plurality would be very difficult if we did not define the member class. My opinion is that being a member should be entirely self-elected. If somebody wants to become a member, they should only have to say so. Being a ‘member’ should not, imo, be required in order to place a fund request. A somewhat more centralized leadership with the board is necessary in order to start this and incorporate. Beyond that, structure is yet to be determined with regards to what defines ‘the committee’ and things like that. Input from anyone on anything is greatly desired, so everyone please feel free to share thoughts.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:02
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Coolness Averted posted:First come, first served makes the most sense for getting people aid when they need it. strongly agree
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Oct 19, 2022 18:03
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Only issue I'd have is if there's a better state to do it in. Let us know if you need any information from board members to process it as I assume the state will not accept SA usernames.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:04
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I have no legal or financial knowledge or skills and I'm also not American but I think you should call it Goons Open Wallets To Serve Each Other. Or GOWTSEA. Unless that's too much of a stretch
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Oct 19, 2022 18:05
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As for member, I agree it should be open to anyone who comes in and says they want to be a member. It's also a great way for people outside of cspam to come in and see people aren't the weirdos that get blasted as representatives of the whole forum like the baby hater yesterday. Hopefully it gets more people interested in actual socialism instead of the shitpost variety. And yes, money should be first come first served, no priorities given. We discussed that yesterday and the UK goons said they feel like their constitution needs to change on that front too as no one should feel like they can't get help.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:07
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kingcobweb posted:it sounds like the consensus is i should start filing paperwork and poo poo for a 501c3 today. i live in Washington, any reason not to file here? any other thoughts/objections? It was brought up earlier that, for all the usual corporate reasons, Delaware might be preferable. I'm not really qualified to make that call though other than it sounds right to me
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Oct 19, 2022 18:08
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kingcobweb posted:it sounds like the consensus is i should start filing paperwork and poo poo for a 501c3 today. i live in Washington, any reason not to file here? any other thoughts/objections? some stuff about nonprofits in Washington https://communities-rise.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Nonprofit-Management-in-Washington-FAQ.pdf
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Oct 19, 2022 18:08
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Dabir posted:I have no legal or financial knowledge or skills and I'm also not American but I think you should call it Goons Open Wallets To Serve Each Other. Or GOWTSEA. Unless that's too much of a stretch lmao we need a sub-committee to come up with tortured acronyms
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Oct 19, 2022 18:09
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if you're going out of your own state, well, deleware is a meme for a reason. you would have the easiest time meeting those standards, and there doesn't seem to be audit requirements. given that the point of this is accountability tho, lol. something id want to check with an expert on before pulling the trigger, personally.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:12
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kingcobweb posted:it sounds like the consensus is i should start filing paperwork and poo poo for a 501c3 today. i live in Washington, any reason not to file here? any other thoughts/objections? was gonna say i supported a 501c3 esp as im not worried it will take awhile To Get Going since, well, there's another fund available, but this sounds great.  Tiler Kiwi posted:if you're going out of your own state, well, deleware is a meme for a reason. you would have the easiest time meeting those standards, and there doesn't seem to be audit requirements. i think accountability among the community is the important thing. so long as we're in a position where the feds dont care and we're not breakin laws gently caress em lol
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Oct 19, 2022 18:13
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not it, apparently I don't know what letter Other starts with good luck goons, try to vote literate people onto your committees
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Oct 19, 2022 18:14
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Tiler Kiwi posted:given that the point of this is accountability tho, lol. something id want to check with an expert on before pulling the trigger, personally. sounds good, i'll poke around Seattle DSA to see if someone's an expert in this kinda stuff.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:14
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I also feel like it would be better to have a constitution proposed, voted upon, and ratified before the org that it governs is incorporated, especially if the pressure is off due to other funds helping goons in the mean time. This is just a really standard way to do things for all sorts of democratic, constitutionally governed bodies irl and otherwise. I understand the sense of urgency ITT (and to be clear I think it makes sense and I commend everyone for stepping up) but you get a lot of legitimacy in the larger financial world for remembering to dot your is and cross your ts.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:16
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i would consider carefully whether you want to give legally binding decision-making power to a community made up of "people on the internet" community votes are fine for determining what people want but you want the board to be able to make the decisions they need to without 4chan's input when they need to the mechanism to keep the board in line with what the real community wants is already there in that people will stop donating if they don't
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Oct 19, 2022 18:17
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yeah, if noone has any strong opinion my vote is any goons who have contacts with experience starting a non profit tap those contacts and get some feedback. if that doesn't work out with some opinions worth pursuing by EOD today I'll volunteer to contact a local expert for paid advice just to keep things moving
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Oct 19, 2022 18:19
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JamesKPolk posted:I also feel like it would be better to have a constitution proposed, voted upon, and ratified before the org that it governs is incorporated, especially if the pressure is off due to other funds helping goons in the mean time. This is just a really standard way to do things for all sorts of democratic, constitutionally governed bodies irl and otherwise. I understand the sense of urgency ITT (and to be clear I think it makes sense and I commend everyone for stepping up) but you get a lot of legitimacy in the larger financial world for remembering to dot your is and cross your ts. i see where you're coming from, but i disagree in that filing the corp will have a big influence on the rules we decide on later there are going to be certain rules that have to be followed legally in a nonprofit corp and it's better to have those in place and fully understand the constraints before building an alternate set of rules that might be totally inappropriate at that point nonprofits and 501c3s are formal and have both federal and state level structural requirements that ought to be set up and built around, as opposed to the other way around. that's a big difference between what we're doing here and the ukmt stuff see for the example the stuff i linked a few posts ago https://communities-rise.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Nonprofit-Management-in-Washington-FAQ.pdf
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Oct 19, 2022 18:23
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Coolness Averted posted:As someone who would just be donating I'd vote for the actual registered non-profit since the goal of this project was to avoid some of the pitfalls of the other one. Like I also don't see this as a replacement or end of the other goonbucks, just a fork. The same way I can both chip in some cash to someone I trust posting a "hey this person needs help, here's their cashapp/paypal" and to formal orgs. Thank you. I agree that we should incorporate as a registered non-profit. I believe the board is all on the same page as that, and it is what we are working towards. I think it would be the best fit for our overall goals. And yes, the overall intent of establishing this fund is not to oust Plinkey’s fund. The sole point of this fund is to provide goons with a fund that will communicate more transparently with the community, and will more directly involve the community’s input. I think its also important to note that the board does not 100% see eye-to-eye on everything WRT to everything. I, for instance, am more highly critical of some of Plinkey’s practices than some other members, and have a variety of ethical concerns. These concerns involve the literal structure of his fund, and are not based around accusations of theft, which we have no real evidence of. The real problem is we have evidence of NOTHING except for the amount of money going in, and that some goons have received some funds. No real determinations can be made one way or another from that, imo. Because of my concerns, I find it imperative that we establish a fund that will better serve the community, and will not be precariously dependent on one single person. Imagine, for instance, that Plinkey decides one day to stop hosting his fund, having an alternative available could prevent a disaster. I also want to state that, in my opinion, if Plinkey does hold up his promise to provide more detailed financial information at the end of the month, and if he pledges to continue to do so, and the numbers all add up, then this would alleviate many of my concerns. However, even with that, we still have problems with: (1) patreon taking an unnecessary cut (2) the fund being dependent solely on ONE person (3) the lack of community input on the project (4) that Plinkey may be paying taxes unnecessarily on the donations. Theoretically, IFF (if and only if) Plinkey both makes his fund more transparent, and he also takes the steps to incorporate his fund, and involve other members of the community, then I would no longer see any purpose in working to establish THIS fund, and I would likely vote for dissolution. As is, I think our fund has a purpose to serve, and again, that purpose is not to REPLACE Plinkey’s fund. It would only be a replacement if Plinkey himself decides to shut his fund down, or if the SA administration determined they no longer wanted it on the site. And for the record, some members of the board have spoken quite favorably of Plinkey, so that should make clear that our intentions here are not specifically anti-Plinkey. We, again, all have a variety of opinions, but are united in our goal of establishing a transparent charity community fund, and are using the power of democracy to accomplish this.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:25
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JamesKPolk posted:I also feel like it would be better to have a constitution proposed, voted upon, and ratified before the org that it governs is incorporated, especially if the pressure is off due to other funds helping goons in the mean time. This is just a really standard way to do things for all sorts of democratic, constitutionally governed bodies irl and otherwise. I understand the sense of urgency ITT (and to be clear I think it makes sense and I commend everyone for stepping up) but you get a lot of legitimacy in the larger financial world for remembering to dot your is and cross your ts. I am generally in agreement with this. I think that it would be unwise to incorporate without having a clear picture of our organizational structure.
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Oct 19, 2022 18:28
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speng31b posted:i see where you're coming from, but i disagree in that filing the corp will have a big influence on the rules we decide on later I think we can do both- there's no reason to rush to get the 501c3 registered TODAY as long as it's not put off a ton Honestly as I understand it the constitution is just for us, not for any legal reasons, so there's no reason we can't just work on the google doc in the meantime
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Oct 19, 2022 18:34
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DOPE FIEND KILLA G posted:I am generally in agreement with this. I think that it would be unwise to incorporate without having a clear picture of our organizational structure. i think it's important to strike a balance. trying to wait until you have everything about the org crystallized before you start filing to incorporate is the wrong choice, but starting the process will trigger decision points where we can have discussion about stuff that needs to be sorted out sooner versus later. you're going to want to build an organization around the constraints of what is legally required, and the best way to understand those constraints is to get started with help from people who have done it before. the rules we create will be better understood and more robust in that context kingcobweb posted:I think we can do both- there's no reason to rush to get the 501c3 registered TODAY as long as it's not put off a ton yeah, it's totally fine to wait and get advice. I would go for an approach where both proceed in parallel, but I'd recommend committing to a date for filing based on understanding the best legal path forward vs waiting for the doc to be finalized speng31b has issued a correction as of 19:03 on Oct 19, 2022 |
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Oct 19, 2022 18:35
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i'm working on a draft that's a full rewrite of the constitution (because we have big differences in what a "member" is), could i get feedback on this:quote:Amendment of Constitution is it necessary to have different rules for amendment depending on what part of the document it's on?
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Oct 19, 2022 18:55
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