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PC LOAD LETTER posted:If you're gaming at 1080p than the 13600k is a real good deal right now. I get what you mean about resolution, but that the 13600k has a double digit lead on the 7600X/7700X at 720p/1080p means it is likely to remain the better gaming performer on into the future with more intensive games and new GPUs across the resolution range. So I wouldn't say the 13600K is only for 1080p, it is likely the best value choice for gaming period. Both ranges are as close as they have basically ever been though.
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Oct 20, 2022 16:47
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Combat Pretzel posted:I'm confused. This graph says the Intel loving sucks at multithreading, yet when I search for "i9-13900K" on Google, first thing coming up is The Verge subtitled "Intel takes the PC performance crown back from AMD thanks to big multithread performance gains".
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Oct 20, 2022 16:54
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As we've basically always known, games love cache. Alder lake was already a good gaming performer and it got a good chunk more L2 cache. When the 7800X3D arrives it's going to blow everything else out of the water.
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Oct 20, 2022 16:54
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Seems like if you want to go amd, unless you need it right this moment, best bet is to hope for good discounts following these Intel numbers, or to wait till 3d vcache. If you're going for multithreaded workload performance, there's still an argument to be made for a 7950x though.
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Oct 20, 2022 16:55
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Cygni posted:but that the 13600k has a double digit lead on the 7600X/7700X at 720p/1080p Eeeehh I don't really buy into the low res benches as surefire predictor of future performance take. Especially when the avg. peak fps numbers are getting up into stupid ranges like 300fps+ at those resolutions sometimes in some games.
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Oct 20, 2022 16:57
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in optimum tech's latest benchmark for the intel cpu's: anyone know what's up with the 7700x result? that single-ccd advantage capframex hinted at before? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMYQhdPtDSw&t=429s
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Oct 20, 2022 17:40
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Saturnine Aberrance posted:Seems like if you want to go amd, unless you need it right this moment, best bet is to hope for good discounts following these Intel numbers, or to wait till 3d vcache. If you're going for multithreaded workload performance, there's still an argument to be made for a 7950x though. In a boring teleconference, made a New CPU Wanter flowchart: 
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Oct 20, 2022 17:45
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previous gen is the value play, you’re not going to be cpu bottlenecked without a 4090 and a 360hz qhd monitor. i’m waiting for 7x3d because i’m a pervert freak who wants to stuff a gaming system into 5.5L and every watt counts
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Oct 20, 2022 18:01
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PC LOAD LETTER posted:Eeeehh I don't really buy into the low res benches as surefire predictor of future performance take. It's like, generally correct but when it's wrong it's really wrong. For ex bulldozer getting perversely better over time, or the 8600k getting hosed by having only 4 threads. The best way to have a CPU that has good performance in the future is to buy a cheaper CPU today, so you have money to upgrade whenever "the future" arrives.
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Oct 20, 2022 18:13
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Cygni posted:In a boring teleconference, made a New CPU Wanter flowchart: That's awesome!
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Oct 20, 2022 19:07
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I am in the purgatory sphere. I hope the rumors of X3D announcements at CES are real.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:10
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Purgatory sphere gives me more time to pull more money together for a better rig at least.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:24
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Even with more x3d versions the motherboard pricing is just brutal for AM5 at the moment. AFAICT in euroland the only mini-ITX one is like 600eur. Just completely uncompetitive.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:34
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As an 8700k user the purgatory sphere is a good fit.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:37
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distortion park posted:Even with more x3d versions the motherboard pricing is just brutal for AM5 at the moment. AFAICT in euroland the only mini-ITX one is like 600eur. Just completely uncompetitive. Yeah, ITX for AM5 is rough at the moment but the boards are still launching so it will def get better. The MSI's B650I Edge is launching next week and has a $230 preorder price in the US, for example. B650 boards are down to $170 too, but the cheapest boards are still yet to launch. I do think the platform costs will level out a bit, but Intel probably will maintain an edge due to DDR5 costs for a while.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:43
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i want a b650 with all the usb ports because i require alot of usb ports.
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Oct 20, 2022 20:02
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Kung-Fu Jesus posted:I am in the purgatory sphere. I hope the rumors of X3D announcements at CES are real. Is there any indication of how long after the rumoured announcement they'll come out? Because if it's another 2 months after that gently caress waiting. There's always something more 2 months after waiting 2 months.
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Oct 20, 2022 20:12
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Vadoc posted:Is there any indication of how long after the rumoured announcement they'll come out? Because if it's another 2 months after that gently caress waiting. There's always something more 2 months after waiting 2 months. 5800X3D had 1 month between announcement and launch. I can't imagine they'd take longer than that, especially if Intel if giving them real pressure now.
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Oct 20, 2022 20:55
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Twerk from Home posted:As we've basically always known, games love cache. Klyith posted:5800X3D had 1 month between announcement and launch. I can't imagine they'd take longer than that, especially if Intel if giving them real pressure now.
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Oct 20, 2022 21:42
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Vadoc posted:Is there any indication of how long after the rumoured announcement they'll come out? Because if it's another 2 months after that gently caress waiting. There's always something more 2 months after waiting 2 months.
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Oct 20, 2022 22:50
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Another good graph from today's Alder Lake coverage
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Oct 20, 2022 23:28
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HUB perf/$ charts are always poo poo, partially because of quirks of HUB's benchmarking process, but primarily because perf/$ is a garbage metric and perf uplift / total cost (which may include resale of current components) is the thing you should care about.
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Oct 20, 2022 23:31
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mdxi posted:Another good graph from today's Alder Lake coverage Both those board and DDR4 prices are inflated pretty badly. I understand why they did that expensive ram after listening the video, but those DDR4 ram prices are insane and make the comparison pretty much worthless. As he says in the video, i would make my own calculation and not use that graph. K8.0 posted:HUB perf/$ charts are always poo poo, partially because of quirks of HUB's benchmarking process, but primarily because perf/$ is a garbage metric and perf uplift / total cost (which may include resale of current components) is the thing you should care about. "Uplift" per dollar and cost per frame are literally the same thing with a different starting point depending on what you own (or dont own) today. Also bless you if you are taking the time to flip old computer parts on ebay, but I don't believe thats the majority or even plurality of DIY PC builders. Cygni fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Oct 21, 2022 |
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Oct 21, 2022 00:01
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Cygni posted:In a boring teleconference, made a New CPU Wanter flowchart: Looks like I'll be mentally preparing for a 13600K build and waiting on 7000 X3D.
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Oct 21, 2022 00:07
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Cygni posted:"Uplift" per dollar and cost per frame are literally the same thing with a different starting point depending on what you own (or dont own) today. Also bless you if you are taking the time to flip old computer parts on ebay, but I don't believe thats the majority or even plurality of DIY PC builders. It's not at all the same in terms of the chart order. If you have a baseline 105 FPS from a 3600X or something, the value on that chart changes wildly. The 5600X will drop way down the list because it's such a minor upgrade compared to the 5800X3D, but costs 3/4 as much. The 7700X will shoot way up the list because it's a big upgrade and isn't that much more expensive than the 5800X3D. If you have hardware that is worth hundreds of dollars and you don't bother spending maybe 2 hours to resell it, either your ability to understand value is so bad that any value chart is wasted on you, or your income is high enough that looking at value charts is a waste of your time and you should just buy the fastest thing to minimize how often you have to waste time upgrading.
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Oct 21, 2022 00:08
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Josh Lyman posted:For the 13600K, why do you recommend 700 mobo + DDR5 over 600 mobo + DDR4? It an additional $200 build cost without much performance gain. it says nothing about motherboards, there's no good reason to get a z790 board over a z690 board for nearly all use cases. ddr4 is still better value than ddr5 but it's getting closer, it's not a $200 extra cost
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Oct 21, 2022 00:20
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lih posted:it says nothing about motherboards, there's no good reason to get a z790 board over a z690 board for nearly all use cases. ddr4 is still better value than ddr5 but it's getting closer, it's not a $200 extra cost
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Oct 21, 2022 00:30
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Folks aren't worried about increased core requirements for gaming i.e., going for the 13700K instead?
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Oct 21, 2022 00:56
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In the GPU thread we're talking about how devs are struggling because the Xbox Series S is too hard to program for because it's so much less powerful than the X and PS5 I really don't think more (performance) CPU cores are going to be issue for a while yet
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Oct 21, 2022 00:59
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shrike82 posted:Folks aren't worried about increased core requirements for gaming i.e., going for the 13700K instead? No, because "core requirements" isn't a thing for gaming.
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Oct 21, 2022 01:01
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Josh Lyman posted:You're right, but on a Z690 motherboard, I'm seeing maybe DDR5 maybe 5% faster than DDR4? where are you getting that from, z690 vs z790 should not make a difference as to how much benefit ddr5 gives you. it's a fairly small benefit in general yeah which is why it's still not great value unless you get a deal, but at the higher end it makes more sense
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Oct 21, 2022 01:05
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shrike82 posted:Folks aren't worried about increased core requirements for gaming i.e., going for the 13700K instead? It's quite unlikely that in a gaming workload, you're going to need all six of the 13600K's cores going full tilt, and whatever additional workload won't be easily handled by the e-cores. I have no idea what game would even look like that performance profile.
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Oct 21, 2022 01:05
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K8.0 posted:It's quite unlikely that in a gaming workload, you're going to need all six of the 13600K's cores going full tilt, and whatever additional workload won't be easily handled by the e-cores. I have no idea what game would even look like that performance profile. A parallelized Cities: Skyline or Dwarf Fortress in late game.
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Oct 21, 2022 01:07
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yeah, i was curious if there are games that can leverage the additional P-cores on the 13700K. the flow chart only considers the 13600K or the 13900K so i'm wondering if the choice is really that extreme
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Oct 21, 2022 01:11
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Subjunctive posted:A parallelized Cities: Skyline or Dwarf Fortress in late game. Well that's the thing, if it were somehow a super-parallelizable workload then the 13600K would actually be an excellent CPU because of the 8 E-cores. It'd probably perform closer to a 7900X than anything else. To perform badly, it would have to be a load that balances almost perfectly on 7 or 8 high performance cores, but can't scale to additional cores. That's a vanishingly unlikely type of load. K8.0 fucked around with this message at 01:31 on Oct 21, 2022 |
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Oct 21, 2022 01:13
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there are barely any 13700k reviews yet but typically going from 6 to 8 cores is extremely marginal for gaming performance in nearly all scenarios. the main appeal of the 12700k over the 12600k was for people who also do production workloads amd want the extra performance over a 12600k but not enough to want to shell out for a 12900k
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Oct 21, 2022 01:22
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shrike82 posted:yeah, i was curious if there are games that can leverage the additional P-cores on the 13700K. the flow chart only considers the 13600K or the 13900K so i'm wondering if the choice is really that extreme The 13700K is faster than the 13600K, but it looks like that's largely due to the faster clock and additional cache. Core count doesn't have much to do with it. What matters most for gaming is single-core performance still, and what matters second-most is overall performance (e.g. a fast six-core is better than a slow eight-core). I'm finding it hard to imagine a scenario where a mult-threaded game that can take advantage of 8 p-cores but can't use any e-cores.  I think there's an argument for a 13700K, but for most people a 13600K will be the more sensible purchase. As it was with Alder Lake. Maybe the 13700 non-K will be a sleeper value pick again like the 12700 was, though. edit: I just realized this is the AMD thread. I haven't even looked at the Intel thread yet, but I assume everyone's having the exact same discussion there too. 
Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Oct 21, 2022 |
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Oct 21, 2022 01:34
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interesting, didn't realize it had better clock and cache i guess i've always had a mental picture of the HEDT compute CPU being slightly slower for gaming but it looks like the 13900K is actually the fastest shrike82 fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Oct 21, 2022 |
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Oct 21, 2022 01:42
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Subjunctive posted:A parallelized Cities: Skyline or Dwarf Fortress in late game. The problem with all these games that that a real time game loop’s “tick” rate and amdahl’s law conspire to make that not work as well as you’d hope.
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Oct 21, 2022 03:11
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K8.0 posted:It's not at all the same in terms of the chart order. If you have a baseline 105 FPS from a 3600X or something, the value on that chart changes wildly. The 5600X will drop way down the list because it's such a minor upgrade compared to the 5800X3D, but costs 3/4 as much. The 7700X will shoot way up the list because it's a big upgrade and isn't that much more expensive than the 5800X3D. My point is that is still cost per frame, but its cost per frame with an arbitrary adjusted value. From a reviewer standpoint, that arbitrary adjustment is relative to the literal thousands of different CPUs someone might own (if any at all). That seems tough to meaningfully address in a standardized environment. As a reviewer, the best thing you can do for a reader would be to assume a zero starting point and do a... cost/frame graph using your standardized platforms and data with outside variables as controlled as you can make them. Gathering the retail cost and performance mean onto one slide is useful at-a-glance comparative information for lots of consumers with different uses and starting points, not just in situ upgrades from other recent products, which is only one use case. On the "uplift"/price concept specific to upgrades, attempting to calculate comparative numbers based on looking at your current CPU model's performance in someone else's test configuration (or maybe worse, trying to run the same software at home and calculate with those numbers), then trying to compare it to a speculative purchase mathematically is going to inherently create bad data. The purpose of benchmarking in a standardized configuration is to compare those devices to each other across that test suite in those conditions, not directly to yours at home with its own configuration and 42 instances of BonziBuddy. At best, those calculated numbers would create a ball park maybe sorta kinda expectation of performance uplift, but extremely imprecise. At worst, you are doing math with made up numbers mixed in and producing nothing of value. That seems like more of a "garbage metric" than a reviewers price/performance chart based on actual data, to me. But thats just my opinion as someone who hasn't taken stats in like two decades, maybe im wrong! Someone please correct me if im missing something. K8.0 posted:If you have hardware that is worth hundreds of dollars and you don't bother spending maybe 2 hours to resell it, either your ability to understand value is so bad that any value chart is wasted on you, or your income is high enough that looking at value charts is a waste of your time and you should just buy the fastest thing to minimize how often you have to waste time upgrading. Ignoring the catty part of this, i will again say that I don't believe the majority or even plurality of DIY PC builders are regularly flipping their old PC parts on ebay. I would also probably say that by the time most people upgrade, very few parts are going to be worth hundreds of dollars each. A 6700K is like $80 on ebay. Ryzen 1700s are often in the 60s after shipping. Personally, I am not bothering listing, packing, boxing, shipping, or dealing with rando strangers and potential scammers unless I get a fairly significant amount of money. I would frankly rather do anything else with my time, and im not that well off. They got beer at the store, man. All that said, if you as a buyer want to factor this in to your own decisions, and flip fast enough that you are leaving lots of value on the table and dont want to pass it to a family member or whatever, have at it! I just don't think thats most people.
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Oct 21, 2022 04:02
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