(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
|
Mr. Fortitude posted:If you actually watch KingK's video, he brings up the fact that the game is a broken because of the development circumstances in the game. He starts off being positive about concepts the game does well before ripping into the issues it has, explaining why the game has those issues and then going into how Sonic 06 forever poisoned the well of discussion for Sonic, largely driven by people who never even played the game and just watched an LP which is exactly what this thread has admitted doing right now and in turn, this had a snowball effect for the series going forward when Sonic Unleashed, a much better game than 06 got worse reviews than 06 did simply because it was now cool to dislike Sonic as an IP now and is probably the reason Sega leaned hard into nostalgia bait from Generations onward in trying to appeal to people who only liked the Genesis games while not actually trying to do anything new with the series and Sonic's cast of characters, including characters from the Genesis games are basically turned into groupies for Sonic who do nothing but ask where Sonic is when he's not around, which might appeal to fans of the Genesis games who haven't liked anything since but completely alienates fans of the Adventure games. KingKalamari posted:
I think it's also important to mention that the pokecapn LP is 100% not the only source most people people who haven't played the game are getting their information from. The LP came out months after the game was released and was done specifically because the game had already garnered a reputation for being extremely bad. slowbeef and Diabetus ended up doing a full LP of the game in 2015 that was not set up as a marathon and featured slowbeef using a lot of the mechanics that pokecapn overlooked, and it still demonstrates how terrible the game is. Also, the idea that Sonic 06 is what caused everyone to turn on Sonic or when it became trendy to hate on Sonic is 100% a misrepresentation of the franchise's history. The games leading up to Sonic 06 (Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog) had been poorly reviewed and publicly mocked for various reasons, and the fandom as a whole had already pretty firmly established its reputation as a cringe factory. A lot of the modern retrospectives on the "fall" of Sonic the Hedgehog have this tendency to only look at the professional reviews the games were getting and ignore other factors surrounding the series. This is flawed on two counts: 1. Professional reviews for AAA games were a lot more generous back in the day. A lot of the major review publications served more as advertisements for the big console companies than as good faith reviews. 2. This ignores the fact that a lot of the "fall" of the Sonic series has less to do with the quality of the mainline games themselves and more to do with the fall of Sega as a company. While Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 were actually pretty impressive back when they came out and received solid reviews, they were also originally released for a poor-selling console and didn't earn anywhere near the sales of their 2D predecessors. As other posters have pointed out, while the Adventure games were impressive in their day in the context of the Sonic series as a whole, they noticeably jankier in a lot of places than the 3D offerings from Nintendo's main series at the time. Like I said, I definitely think there are things to like about the Sonic series from the Adventure to Unleashed period, but the wave we've been seeing of nostalgic retrospectives on this era have a bad tendency to overlook the very real flaws in these games and ignore important pieces of context that influenced public perception of the series. raocow posted:I played through sonic 06 (and its dlc) last summer and legit had a good time! Aw dang, raocow! I haven't seen you 'round these parts in ages! How've you been?
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 23:01 |
|
|
KingKalamari posted:while the Adventure games were impressive in their day in the context of the Sonic series as a whole, they noticeably jankier in a lot of places than the 3D offerings from Nintendo's main series at the time. They're definitely worse than Ocarina of Time and Mario Sunshine, but I can't see them as being worse than Mario 64. Am I missing something? Delphisage fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Oct 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:14
|
|
|
It's definitely a subjective matter. Mario 64 is less polished in its presentation (What with the camera you can just spin around to see the other side of the level geometry and the 20px x 20px textures) but I think the actual physics and movement systems of the game hold up a lot better than the Adventure series. It's something a little difficult to quantify, but Mario in 64 just "feels" better to control that Sonic in Adventure does. Mario 64 also has the benefit of sticking more within the limits of what could be done effectively with the technology and resources of the time. I'm specifically thinking of the cutscenes and voice acting in Sonic Adventure - which are entertaining as hell, but probably not in the way Sega intended. By taking a more minimalist approach to its storytelling, Mario 64 is perhaps less ambitious than Sonic Adventure, but I think ends up holding up better 25+ years later... KingKalamari fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:24
|
|
|
Slowbeef was also very bad at the game so combine that with the bugs and poor design and it maybe does come off as worse than usual tbf
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:29
|
|
|
SM64's shortcomings when compared to Sonic Adventure are, in my opinion, mainly visual/fidelity based. SA looks a lot better, sure, but it's also on a more advanced console. Meanwhile, SA's shortcomings when compared to SM64 are much more fundamental (mainly controls/physics or the "feel" of playing the game) and that's not something that's fixed with more horsepower.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:30
|
|
|
Sonic Adventure is also unfortunately hardware dependent in a way that SM64 isn't. Dreamcast emulation still wasn't great last I checked and very few people still have a working machine, so they're liable to be working off bad ports. Whereas SM64 has both had good ports and is relatively easy to emulate. So more people have experienced the ideal version of SM64 than have SA. I'm sure there is some fan port of SA that fixes everything but that's not how most people experience it. Most people in the modern day are either going to have played the GameCube or steam versions, and the stream version is dire.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:35
|
|
|
My opinion is based on my own personal experience (I have played SA on the Dreamcast), I'm not speaking for anyone else
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:37
|
|
|
ButterSkeleton posted:Did raocow just post here and only one person notice it? raocow has been a forums poster for a very long time and also it's a little odd to be like "oh my god, YouTuber, let me be your best internet friend" so it's better to try to be normal. Anyway Mario 64 is one of the greatest and most lasting games ever made. It controls, on original hardware, perfectly. It took decades for other 3D games to match its fidelity of control. Only Sunshine is more expressive, but that's tempered by Sunshine's atrocious level design and anemic stage selection. There's a reason SM64 is one of the most popular speedrunning games ever and it's because the design is rich and emergent. Sonic games also have that emergent design, to be clear. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are both excellent speed games, although SA2' emerald hunts are awful in all circumstances. DoctorWhat fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Oct 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:37
|
|
|
I'm also speaking for myself, as someone who's played SM64 on an N64 emulator with keyboard and the DS port on a DS 10 years ago, and both Sonic Adventures on the Gamecube 15 years ago.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:39
|
|
|
DoctorWhat posted:SA2' emerald hunts are awful in all circumstances. You're talking out of your rear end right now. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:43
|
|
|
SA2's soundtrack is obviously excellent and elevates even the most loathsome aspects of the experience, including the actively ruined emerald hunting that is just worse in every way compared to SA1.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:44
|
|
|
Really I just wanted an excuse to post that song, especially in this most holy of months. 
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:45
|
|
|
if we did not have Sonic 2006 we would not have the SnapCube Sonic 2006 Real-Time Fandub Games so I consider its existence a net positive for the world
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:50
|
|
|
See, what they need to do is make Knuckles playable in a 3D game again and base his gameplay off the treasure hunts of the adventures games. But instead of looking for emerald shards, he's looking for producers so he can give them copies of his demo tape.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:50
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4lztqaQ2vY i have absolutely no buffy experience except for one episode of angel where he was a puppet (which apparently was written by the creator of The Tick???) so i will learn a lot from this video
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:53
|
|
|
Jesse Gender has a video about child marriage apologist and self described Christian fascist Matt Walsh. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75bbNdlX2pA
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:55
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:It's definitely a subjective matter. Mario 64 is less polished in its presentation (What with the camera you can just spin around to see the other side of the level geometry and the 20px x 20px textures) but I think the actual physics and movement systems of the game hold up a lot better than the Adventure series. It's something a little difficult to quantify, but Mario in 64 just "feels" better to control that Sonic in Adventure does. Adventure has a place in my heart as the first 3d non-FPS game I ever really owned. As a result, I was able to deal with the jank, but I understand why people can't abide by it- especially if they played the non-Dreamcast ports. There are some videos on the history, but most modern versions of Adventure are ports-of-ports-of-ports-of-ports and as a result, they're way buggier and more busted than the original release. On the other hand, I first played SM64 only recently because of the Switch re-release and yikes, playing it for the first time twenty years after the fact didn't help give a good impression. I appreciate that it was basically what made 3d platformers seem viable at all and that I was playing a game that was wildly ahead of its peers and pioneered 3d gameplay, though. Before that, it seemed like most 3d third-person games controlled like garbage. As for Sonic 06, I actually remember the reception to the game being kind of mediocre/forgettable instead of awful when it was released. Back then, the only games to get below 6s or 7s from major review sites were licensed garbage games that barely functioned. Gamers also couldn't widely circulate videos of hour-long Pumpkin Hill runs or janky SA2 rail-grinding sections until like 2007. As a result, a lot of flaws in triple-A games got overlooked like Kalamari pointed out. It was only when Pokecapn and other people LP'd it that the (correct) opinion of 06 being awful started to become the norm. It also helps that people mostly played the PS3 version, which I'm convinced was not tailored to the dualshock and had much worse controls than the 360 version as a result. So they ended up playing the worse port of an already bad game. I'll always defend the music in any Sonic game though, especially the tracks with cheesy lyrics. Hearing the lead singer of Zebrahead contribute to rap-metal songs about cartoon animals brings me joy and I wish they'd record some more of those Crazy Town-rear end songs for modern games.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 17:58
|
|
|
Pennsylvanian posted:As for Sonic 06, I actually remember the reception to the game being kind of mediocre/forgettable instead of awful when it was released. Back then, the only games to get below 6s or 7s from major review sites were licensed garbage games that barely functioned. Out of its 17 critic reviews, the PS3 version only had two reviews above 60, a 68 from Game Informer and a 66 from Pelit (a Finnish gaming publication?) The 360 version was reviewed 38 times, and it received four reviews above 60, another 68 from Game Informer, a 70 from Planet Xbox 360, a 76 from Games Master UK, and an 85 from Play Magazine (apparently this score was revised in the Jan 2007 issue due to load times but I'm not sure if the 85 is the updated score or not.) Also, there were four 60 scores. The reception to this game was bad from the get-go.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 18:10
|
|
|
The best Sonic 06 playthrough is Matt and Liam's because while they make fun of it constantly, Liam has a sorta optimistic outlook that gives it all a very good vibe. And they play it thoroughly enough to find the purple gem sonic can equip to inexplicably make him very small and also fly (???), utterly trivializing the rest of the levels. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naps1BR4KEE&t=531s
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
Oh boy, new Bobbybroccoli video just dropped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe5WT22-AO8 The guy's videos really deserve more attention IMO
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
I was a giant Sonic mark in the GameCube/PS2 generation, I loved the GC versions of the Adventure games and I made excuses for Heroes and Shadow ("They're not as good as the Adventure games, but they're still great games!"). I was super jazzed for the upcoming 360 and excitedly downloaded the demo when it finally came out. I played it once and didn't play a new Sonic game until Generations came out. The demo for Sonic 06 was so loving bad that it broke me.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 18:20
|
|
|
The 7th Guest posted:i have absolutely no buffy experience except for one episode of angel where he was a puppet (which apparently was written by the creator of The Tick???) so i will learn a lot from this video Weadon for all his faults does have a good eye for talent, his casting is always impeccable and the writers room are almost as good. Steven S. DeKnight who was the showrunner for Spartcus and the first season of Daredevil also worked for Weadon. The man is scum but he does know how to run a tv show.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 18:27
|
|
|
Scholtz posted:Out of its 17 critic reviews, the PS3 version only had two reviews above 60, a 68 from Game Informer and a 66 from Pelit (a Finnish gaming publication?) I only ever looked at 360 reviews because I didn't have a PS3 at the time, so yeah that kind of lines up with what I remember. I guess I was more trying to say "The game was bad but was still rated on the scale of Triple-A games at the time and became instantly forgotten. LPs showing off how much of a mess it was were the catalyst that made the game infamously bad instead of forgettably bad."
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 18:33
|
|
|
The 7th Guest posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4lztqaQ2vY Imagine selling out to the PSA people and then getting told your anti-beer episode is not even anti-beer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 19:59
|
|
|
I think my favorite instance of a TV show rebelling against a PSA episode they were ordered to make was the anti-drug episode of ABC's Dinosaurs. The plot of the episode itself is fairly in line with the usual social commentary of the show, but then at the end it switches over to one of those behind-the-scenes segments they often have in very special episodes where the actors talk directly to the audience about the episode's important message. So one of the main charactersgives this heartfelt plea to the audience not to do drugs...because if they do sitcoms are going to have to keep making these heavy-handed anti-drug episodes, and nobody wants that.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 20:16
|
|
|
I'm purely posting this thing that's gone viral because not only is it a just plain lovely interaction, it's a food reviewer who I watch pretty much every day eating a pizza directly in my neck of the woods. https://twitter.com/hungrychipmunk/status/1583110553383235584
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 20:19
|
|
|
Kim Justice posted:I'm purely posting this thing that's gone viral because not only is it a just plain lovely interaction, it's a food reviewer who I watch pretty much every day eating a pizza directly in my neck of the woods. This is just lovely to see. = D
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 20:46
|
|
|
Kim Justice posted:I'm purely posting this thing that's gone viral because not only is it a just plain lovely interaction, it's a food reviewer who I watch pretty much every day eating a pizza directly in my neck of the woods. It doesn't have that sloppy wet! We've got Fireaway Pizza around here, should try it out. Seems since of them can turn a pizza out in 3 minutes, special ovens I assume.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 20:47
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:See, what they need to do is make Knuckles playable in a 3D game again and base his gameplay off the treasure hunts of the adventures games. But instead of looking for emerald shards, he's looking for producers so he can give them copies of his demo tape. What they need to do is redo those Werehog stages in Sonic Unleashed but make that Knuckles' thing instead of the hot and cold find the emerald thing they did for both Sonic Adventures. I can't stand those drat levels. He's an gullible hothead who's so strong his punches have an AOE to them. Let him just go through an Eggman base and just tear through walls and get them off a robot or something. Also Sonic Adventure vs SM64 is a tough comparison because the former had to design 6 different playstyles. And then for 2 they decided to add I think Knuckles and Rouge's at the last second? It was originally supposed to only be something like Sonic, Shadow and Eggman are playable.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 20:50
|
|
|
RareAcumen posted:And then for 2 they decided to add I think Knuckles and Rouge's at the last second? It was originally supposed to only be something like Sonic, Shadow and Eggman are playable. It was Tails and Rouge who got added as playable late in development.
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 20:53
|
|
|
If you're a fan of Lazy Game Reviews, Cathode Ray Dude is along the same lines and has an hour and a half roast of the first IBM video: https://twitter.com/crdudeyoutube/status/1583537409580756992
|
|
#
?
Oct 21, 2022 22:14
|
|
|
The 7th Guest posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4lztqaQ2vY Canadians say pop? What the gently caress?
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 00:18
|
|
|
 Well, Quebec doesn't say "Pop"
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 00:40
|
|
|
Franco Québécois say Liqueur. Or just Coke.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 04:16
|
|
|
I'm glad most Canadians are on the right side of history then. Soda-sayers will be the first against the wall.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 07:16
|
|
|
KingKalamari posted:I think it's also important to mention that the pokecapn LP is 100% not the only source most people people who haven't played the game are getting their information from. The LP came out months after the game was released and was done specifically because the game had already garnered a reputation for being extremely bad. slowbeef and Diabetus ended up doing a full LP of the game in 2015 that was not set up as a marathon and featured slowbeef using a lot of the mechanics that pokecapn overlooked, and it still demonstrates how terrible the game is. Exceptional breakdown. KingK's vid was really disappointing with how obvious his bias was.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 08:30
|
|
|
DoctorWhat posted:raocow has been a forums poster for a very long time and also it's a little odd to be like "oh my god, YouTuber, let me be your best internet friend" so it's better to try to be normal. Besides, we're all just a bunch of pixels on a screen, if that's the correct collective noun. SM64 speedrunning has a long history to it, and while the controls are absolutely a big part of why it's played by speedrunners, a not-insignificant part of the equation is that even today it is one of the games that'll consistently get viewers tuning in to watch, almost no matter who plays it - which in turn is at least somewhat controlled by the demographics of viewers. I think this is best illustrated if you compare it with the original Megaman games, especially 2, 3 and 4 - they also have perfect controls (in that the way to become good at speedrunning is as simple as 1: move perfectly, 2: don't die), but even though Megaman games are popular, they get nowhere near the viewer numbers that SM64 does, even when you control for popularity of streamer.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 15:42
|
|
|
BlankSystemDaemon posted:What the gently caress is normal, and how can you possibly claim that it applies to anyone posting on these dead gay forums? 
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 15:45
|
|
|
BlankSystemDaemon posted:SM64 speedrunning has a long history to it, and while the controls are absolutely a big part of why it's played by speedrunners, a not-insignificant part of the equation is that even today it is one of the games that'll consistently get viewers tuning in to watch, almost no matter who plays it - which in turn is at least somewhat controlled by the demographics of viewers. That makes a lot of sense. Probably similar reasons for why Cubex55's most watched videos are a playthrough of New Super Mario Bros Wii.
|
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 16:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 23:01 |
|
|
Classic Mega Man's "perfect" controls cannot be compared to Mario 64. The added complexity of Mario 64 permits far more personal expression, risk management, and strategy than Mega Man's responsive but rigid physics. This is not a knock on Mega Man, which is also excellent and demands precision and knowledge like any speed game. But Mario 64 has spectacle to its flips, dive recoveries, and air kicks. Yes, part of its popularity as a speed game is due to its popularity in general. But it's a popular game in general for the same reasons: it's fun and compelling because the play control is unmatched under the heavens. DoctorWhat fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Oct 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Oct 22, 2022 16:02
|
|