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Doc Fission posted:a very funny page in view of how game Renji is to wallop his future wife in the beginning of the manga. This is when we can mark his full transition into wife guy, I guess. Early Renji was a misogynist because he got mindwhammied by Aizen (Renji was initially in Aizen's squad before moving to Squad 11 and then Squad 6). After Aizen got defeated, his misogyny illusion faded away and Renji became woke.
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Oct 21, 2022 06:15
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Only when Aizen's hypnosis ended could Soul Society become "woke"
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Oct 21, 2022 06:16
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one possible interpretation of aizen's whole arrancar thing is that it was all a way to hide wonderweiss in a crowd. i'm still not sure if aizen was supposed to be a 10-dimensional chess mastermind character done very badly or if he was supposed to be lying and trolling for his own amusement. it's very difficult to tell with kubo.
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Oct 21, 2022 06:43
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I think the worst thing about the Soul Society captains busting in to handle things in the Arrcanarr arc (I think that’s where I am? The one with Grimmjow) is probably how loving hype I was for Nel’s comic relief buddies to reveal they were her subordinates in the before times just pretending to be goofy because Nel turned into a baby, step up to save the day, then get no-sold so loving Mayuri of all people could handle things. I was already spoiled on Nel through cultural osmosis, but it was still pretty cool until, again, she turned back to a baby so Kenpachi could handle things.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:02
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The big thing back in the day was Hitsugaya saying something like "if Aizen has 10 Vasto Lordes, Soul Society is finished." He really hyped up the Arrancar as unstoppable. After all, Ichigo beat two of the more powerful (if not most powerful) Captains last arc but was made a fool of by Ulquiorra and Grimmjow. But then the Captains Ichigo beat wander in and kill Espada 5 and 7 with no problem. Espada #1 has his fans but in the end, the only Espada anybody felt lived up to the hype were Barragan and Ulquiorra. Ulquiorra was my favorite part of the whole Arrancar Arc. Great voice-actor in the dub, too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJMtHKrJWvo The less said about Espada Cero, the better. At that point Kubo might as well have just taken a poo poo on the page to represent how little he cared about his story. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Oct 21, 2022 |
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Oct 21, 2022 07:16
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Only 5 of them were Vasto Lordes anyway.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:18
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Yeah Barragan rules, felt more like a major threat than Stark or 0th Espada Yammy. Like yeah I get that Stark went up against multiple top-tier captains and Vizards but I barely remember his fight. Yammy fought the two captains who got the most screentime and connection to Ichigo and are clearly favored by Kubo but it was all offscreen. Barragan vs Soifon (and Hachi) legit felt like a threatening fight and the thing that eventually killed him was his own powers, before that it was just trying to nuke him from afar or running away from his death field.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:31
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the vasto lorde classification turned out to be completely irrelevant. there wasn't any appreciable difference between the arrancar based on their previous form.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:35
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NikkolasKing posted:The big thing back in the day was Hitsugaya saying something like "if Aizen has 10 Vasto Lordes, Soul Society is finished." grimmjow was fine imo
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Oct 21, 2022 07:36
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:Yeah Barragan rules, felt more like a major threat than Stark or 0th Espada Yammy. Well Barragan was probably the most dangerous of them all anyway. The Espada were ranked purely on their Spirit Energy rather than any abilities they had. While Yammy had more raw power than Barragan he would instantly lose to Barragan if he fought him. Barragan also was playing with opponents and barely trying to kill them until he got upset (And when he had gotten upset he had played around too much and Hachi decided to take a gamble that worked against Barragan)
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Oct 21, 2022 07:43
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SerSpook posted:grimmjow was fine imo Yeah, Grimmjow was nice. Good theme song, too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEX0w8wf42Q It's just he was Ichigo's rival and Ichigo stomped him into the ground the moment he fought seriously. So not exactly a super big threat to inspire fear among Bleach's strongest.
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Oct 21, 2022 07:46
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Doc Fission posted:
Mangastream had its... ups and downs to put it mildly, but imo their translation for this moment in particular will never be topped: 
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Oct 21, 2022 07:47
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Jesus Christ Mayuri. Just…what the gently caress…
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Oct 21, 2022 13:14
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Lt. Lizard posted:Eh, I feel that fake karakura arc is already at the point where Bleach kinda sucks. It had some highlights that were still top Bleach, such as Barragan's fight, Tousen's end and basically everything Gin did, but most of it was kinda mediocre to bad. This is when I finally dropped the anime for good and started reading the manga. The pacing was just so atrocious and having to spend so much time on background characters just killed the show for me. Last Celebration posted:Jesus Christ Mayuri. Just…what the gently caress… The fact that, that dude never pays for his crimes and is treated like a hero is beyond insane to me.
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Oct 21, 2022 16:22
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Starting the TYBW arc and yeah it's both funny and ridiculous that the Quincies just don't try to murk Mayuri the second they land in SS. KT cares so little about the depth of his lore it kind of rules
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Oct 21, 2022 16:27
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JT Smiley posted:The fact that, that dude never pays for his crimes and is treated like a hero is beyond insane to me. It's just accurate to real life scumbags getting away with the most horrendous poo poo and people honoring and treating them as respectable people
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Oct 21, 2022 16:28
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Mayuri is Kissinger’s phylactery, got it
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Oct 21, 2022 17:17
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'm still not sure if aizen was supposed to be a 10-dimensional chess mastermind character done very badly or if he was supposed to be lying and trolling for his own amusement. it's very difficult to tell with kubo. His actions during the Blood War point at him just doing whatever he thinks will be funny.
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Oct 21, 2022 18:52
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Schubalts posted:His actions during the Blood War point at him just doing whatever he thinks will be funny. If you can't be the king, be the court jester.
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Oct 21, 2022 18:58
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JT Smiley posted:This is when I finally dropped the anime for good and started reading the manga. The pacing was just so atrocious and having to spend so much time on background characters just killed the show for me. Soul Society's very own Operation Paperclip
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Oct 21, 2022 19:56
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Fullbringer arc is actually pretty good, Ginjo and Riruka are cool. Tsukishima’s ability is cool and the mind games are cool. “The guy who cut me is the one behind you” is a better villain reveal than Aizen imo. The end of the arc is a mess, and Giriko, Jackie, and Yukio are dumb. But overall I think the more time goes by the more I like that arc. This is a fun reread. Dreading the latter half of the Quincy arc, however. Also agreed that the Quincy bad girls are cool. Edited for more detail about my opinions on Fullbringers. PringleCreamEgg fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Oct 22, 2022 |
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Oct 22, 2022 00:17
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PringleCreamEgg posted:Fullbringer arc is actually pretty good, Ginjo and Riruka are cool. The other fullbringers are loving boring, although Tsukishima had an interesting ability and the mind games against Ichigo were great. Tsukishima's ability is cool if only because it was a great set up for his fight with Byakuya because in much of the same way only Ichigo could win against Aizen's "once you've seen my ability, you're vulnerable to my ability" I think only Byakuya could win against Tsukishima's "actually we're best friends now" ability and Byakuya grabbing a fist full of petals and blasting a hole through him is one of my favorite fight endings too
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Oct 22, 2022 00:41
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Lib and let die posted:Tsukishima's ability is cool if only because it was a great set up for his fight with Byakuya because in much of the same way only Ichigo could win against Aizen's "once you've seen my ability, you're vulnerable to my ability" I think only Byakuya could win against Tsukishima's "actually we're best friends now" ability and Byakuya grabbing a fist full of petals and blasting a hole through him is one of my favorite fight endings too Yeah, Byakuya's line about enjoying the insanity of battle or something for the first time was great. I stand by the arc not being very memorable, but I did wish KT spent more time on Tsukishima and Ginjo's relationship. The end where Tsukishima is genuinely distraught over Ginjo's death took me by surprise, in a kind of enjoyable way. It was a moment that deserved more prior depth IMO.
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Oct 22, 2022 00:44
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It's good that Can't Fear Your Own World has a fair amount of involvement for Ginjo, Tsukishima, and Giriko, and Tsukishima's power does even more dumb bullshit. Also the qunicy mean girls. Read Can't Fear Your Own World, it's good. My hopeful wish is that TYBW does well enough to get it animated.
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Oct 22, 2022 00:53
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Fullbringer arc was good and it was cool to inject some psychological horror stuff into the setting and introduce a bunch of characters who basically have jojo powers that nobody is really equipped to deal with. It reminded me a lot of the start of the Chapter Black saga in YYH where instead of scaling the power creep up, Togashi introduced characters who're on paper way weaker than the main cast but had bizzare powers that actually forced them to think and adapt instead of just brute forcing victories. The ending is an absolute mess though and all the most popular shinigami characters rocking up out of nowhere to usher the conclusion in was some of the most blatantly obvious editor intervention I can remember in a WSJ manga.
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Oct 22, 2022 04:19
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Sydin posted:Fullbringer arc was good and it was cool to inject some psychological horror stuff into the setting and introduce a bunch of characters who basically have jojo powers that nobody is really equipped to deal with. It reminded me a lot of the start of the Chapter Black saga in YYH where instead of scaling the power creep up, Togashi introduced characters who're on paper way weaker than the main cast but had bizzare powers that actually forced them to think and adapt instead of just brute forcing victories. The ending is an absolute mess though and all the most popular shinigami characters rocking up out of nowhere to usher the conclusion in was some of the most blatantly obvious editor intervention I can remember in a WSJ manga. ...so it ended a lot like Chapter Black, too. All the nifty talents mean jack poo poo compared to raw power levels.
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Oct 22, 2022 04:35
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I feel like "read Can't Fear Your Own World' will be the constant refrain in this thread for all of time read Can't Fear Your Own World
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Oct 22, 2022 05:58
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Last Celebration posted:Jesus Christ Mayuri. Just…what the gently caress… I recently had a talk on the My Hero Academia subreddit where someone tried to say Bleach didn't do anything bad to its female characters. There is a character in Naruto, a girl who is a fangirl of another boy, and becomes his loyal follower. He eventually tries to murder her, coldly and deliberately. Next time we see her, she's reflecting on what happened, on her disillusionment with the man she loved trying to kill her. ....and the time after that, she's all I LOVE YOU, ALL IS FORGIVEN. All that potential character growth is forgotten. I bring this up because there are few times I've been legitimately insulted by a work of fiction. Mayrui was introduced as a monster who tortured an old man to death, kills his own subordinates, and has destroyed any sense of self-worth in Nemu. She's a pawn for him to use, to hurt and kill for any advantage he sees fit. Flash forward to Hueco Mundo where....this happens https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WqzfqaZwFA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF3C7MzzV7I A man more despicable than Aizen, an abuser, is just a laugh riot now and his abuse victim is the butt of the jokes. Yoruichi being great doesn't blot out this stain which is every bit as insulting s Karin in Naruto.
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Oct 22, 2022 20:56
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There's a huge difference between "this is an acknowledged horrible monster who just happens to be on the protagonist's side" and goddamn Sasuke. And until the end there, I actually thought you were talking about supposed main character Sakura, not side character Karin. Like, as far as I'm aware Mayuri's popularity is entirely based around just how absurdly horrible he is to literally everyone. He's extreme dark or absurdist comedy, not an unironic "really the coolest person ever." And dark comedy, like all comedy, is not going to be liked by everyone and is subject to not aging well. Like, let's set aside just how horribly he's treated his homunculus daughter for a moment. He's also blown up his own squad members with implanted explosives, conducted a ludicrously large list of unethical and inhumane human(soul?) experimentation both on and offscreen and is completely okay with blowing up what is effectively part of his own soul (among many other things). He's an evil mad scientist, and literally everyone in the series acknowledges him as such, he's just one that happens to have picked the right side and doesn't betray it. It's completely fine to not like Mayuri, but nowhere in the series does it portray his cruel actions as actually good or acceptable. Everyone in-series is at best creeped out by him, and most loving hate him. A decent chunk of people might find the whole, "yeah, I infected you with spy bacteria" thing funny (to pick one example), but they're not also going "and that seems like a reasonable thing to do." tl;dr: "Wow, look at this dark and edgy cool character who all the girls like despite treating them like poo poo" vs. "Completely over the top monstrosity that's never actually presented as acceptable." It's fine to dislike both, but one is magnitudes worse than the other. The former's also far more unpleasantly an actual problem in real life.
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Oct 22, 2022 21:44
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Yeah, Mayuri just makes everyone else from the Soul Society look worse by association for putting up with him instead of giving him at least a righteous smackdown every time he pulls his poo poo
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Oct 22, 2022 21:48
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I have no problem with dark comedy. It's just that Mayuri isn't comedy. He's introduced as a cackling villain who must be killed for the safety of every living being in existence. He's only "comedy" later on when Kubo is too much of a coward to follow up on any of this, just like Kishimoto. Mayuri's mistreatment of Nemu in written in the utmost seriousness, just like Sasuke and Karin, until it isn't. Both Kishi and Kubo introduce plotlines about abuse and victimization than are like "nah, this is funny now." If Mayuri was always just that lovable insane shithead, I'd be okay with it. Some people probably wouldn't be - see how much people hate Happosai from Ranma for example - but my indignation is due to starting something so incredibly serious and then not only failing to follow through, but making a mockery of the whole thing.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:00
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Uryu absolutely should have gotten to get the killing blow on him during their fight, at least. It had all of the dramatic setup, would have made losing his powers completely worth it, and could have been a completely believable lingering friction point between Ichigo & co. and the Soul Society for the rest of the series… plus potential future plot ideas of the “we had no idea what he was protecting us from” variety.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:09
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The thing is that the Gotei 13 isn't much more than a group of upjumped thugs that legitimized themselves via the use of violence. If you murk a captain, put on their robe, and say "I'm the captain now" that is considered just as legitimate a route to power as being selected by your peers and passing the captain's examination. Yhwach flatout says that before they used the Soul King to rewrite the hierarchy of the world to put themselves on top, Yamamoto and friends were just lawless murderers. Like yeah some of the captains are more chill than others, but ultimately the institution loving sucks and it's really not all that surprising that they're fine with Mayuri being a lunatic so long as it benefits the strength of the organization.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:23
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Mayuri is the strongest example that we see onscreen but most of the captains have displayed some brand of horribleness that gets brushed aside. Byakuya is fine with his sister being executed under questionable pretenses because rules are rules. Gin is a smug bastard who enjoys psychologically abusing his subordinates. Kenpachi is a bloodthirsty savage who even the other captains are wary of. Unohana is the literal, stated worst mass murderer in the entire history of Soul Society. Yamamoto committed genocide. Aizen is only the bad guy because he opposes the establishment.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:24
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I can't find the panel where Ichigo trolls Mayuri.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:31
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NikkolasKing posted:I have no problem with dark comedy. It's just that Mayuri isn't comedy. He's introduced as a cackling villain who must be killed for the safety of every living being in existence. He's only "comedy" later on when Kubo is too much of a coward to follow up on any of this, just like Kishimoto. Mayuri's mistreatment of Nemu in written in the utmost seriousness, just like Sasuke and Karin, until it isn't. Both Kishi and Kubo introduce plotlines about abuse and victimization than are like "nah, this is funny now."  I do see what you're getting at, but I have trouble calling it cowardice given Kubo clearly had plans for the character to stick around from the very beginning. If it was a case of him having seemingly died but fan response made people want to keep him that'd be one thing, but you don't have your horribly evil mad scientist slither away as goo if you don't have later plans for them. And once he's not an active antagonist, you kind of have to do something with the character to make him acceptable on-screen with the heroes. Ramping up the mad science into absurdity is certainly one method that doesn't magically make them now a good person. Does turning the legitimate abuse story into comedy suck? Absolutely, but it's still presented as a horrible thing to do, just presented through the lens of absurdity. Because at the end of the day, you are NEVER supposed to agree with Mayuri's actions even after they're presented as comedy. As opposed to what is basically "it's perfectly fine he abused her (several characters apply), because she came back, right?" I also just try and keep the works as a whole in mind. Naruto had huge problems with how it treated its female characters overall, particularly the supposed main ones, whereas Bleach generally treated them much better. There are plenty of story examples, but for a battle example you have the Sasori fight vs. the Aaroniero one, where in one the heroine clearly won (albeit extremely heavily injured, but that describes a ludicrous number of Bleach wins) and in the other it's "lol no, your adaptive tactics and winning technique failed and he just decided to let himself die" (particularly compared to the other fight going on at the time). Regalingualius posted:Yeah, Mayuri just makes everyone else from the Soul Society look worse by association for putting up with him instead of giving him at least a righteous smackdown every time he pulls his poo poo It's not like Soul Society actually needs any help in looking worse the more you look at it.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:51
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Kaiser Mazoku posted:Byakuya is fine with his sister being executed under questionable pretenses because rules are rules.
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Oct 22, 2022 22:59
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I don't think Byakuya was "perfectly fine" with Rukia being executed. He more or less gives up and lets Ichigo save Rukia after their fight and when push came to save Byakuya did save Rukia from being executed by taking Gin's shikai for her. After all that is when he reveals that essentially his moral code is just two boxes that say "The Law" and "Rukia" and he was conflicted over which to follow until Ichigo convinced him. You just don't see any of that because he's a stoic motherfucker.
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Oct 23, 2022 00:54
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Uryu should have killed Mayuri during the TYBW. it would have worked better for selling the "oh no Uryu has joined the baddies" than him pushing Ichigo down the stairs for the 10th time, and then when the reveal that he didn't really betray them came up and they asked "but what about Mayuri" he could have gone "oh no, gently caress that guy, that was personal. joining the quincy army was just an excuse"
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Oct 23, 2022 01:42
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lezard_valeth posted:Uryu should have killed Mayuri during the TYBW. 
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Oct 23, 2022 01:49
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