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Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

Alaois posted:

actually the much funnier outcome would be the Bills losing in the super bowl to the Giants

At that point disband the team. I don’t mean move it, I mean abolish it.

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really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

Black Lighter posted:

Especially considering that they'll probably be playing an NFC East team

The bills versus clownball... how could you ever take the bills against such unnatural and dark powers...?

epic bacon
Sep 19, 2022

the Bills will only lose 3 games this year, all to the Miami Dolphins

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012


Relentlessboredomm posted:

cool, im still taking bills/chiefs over any nfc team this year. ya'll are basically just restating that the probability isn't 100%, which yea, no poo poo.


i mean cooked rear end matt ryan beat the chiefs this year before being benched. wild things happen all the time, but im not betting on the wildly unlikely thing to occur

If an NFCE team makes the SB for the fourth time since your account has been a thing here, the wildly unlikely thing to occur is them losing

Relentlessboredomm
Oct 15, 2006

It's Sic Semper Tyrannis. You said, "Ever faithful terrible lizard."

Chris James 2 posted:

If an NFCE team makes the SB for the fourth time since your account has been a thing here, the wildly unlikely thing to occur is them losing

why would the history of teams with entirely different rosters be relevant to their performances this season?


like i get we love to talk about teams that are cursed or the wacky rear end giants but those don't really have any bearing on the performances this year. cool, im glad we all have fun anecdotes of times the predictions are wrong, but thus is always the way of probabilities. it doesn't mean the probability of the better team winning was actually 30%, it just means we got to experience the joy of that 10% crazy result possibility

Relentlessboredomm fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Oct 24, 2022

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
If the Bills were to lose to the Eagles in the SB does that complete the NFC East super bowl loss sweep or is it fraudulent due to divisional realignment?

Black Lighter
Sep 6, 2010

Just keep looking at what we're doing, keep watering and ask yourselves first and know 'Are you watering? And are you fertilizing every day?' So when it's time to pop, it'll pop.

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

If the Bills were to lose to the Eagles in the SB does that complete the NFC East super bowl loss sweep or is it fraudulent due to divisional realignment?

They might have to lose to the Cardinals before the curse is lifted

Shinji2015
Aug 31, 2007
Keen on the hygiene and on the mission like a super technician.
How much psychic damage would be done to the Bills if they were to lose to a NFCE team? Would it be levels of 28-3 bad?

Like, imagine them losing to the Cowboys again in the SB

MJBuddy
Sep 22, 2008

Now I do not know whether I was then a head coach dreaming I was a Saints fan, or whether I am now a Saints fan, dreaming I am a head coach.

YOLOsubmarine posted:

The Saints didn’t trade their 2024 first rounder. Penning also wasn’t a “win now” move.

It's such poo poo analysis.

Winston was a top 10 QB the prior year and they expected to get him back and not injured. They've likely lost the most combined games of starters/pro bowl talent, the draft pick got hurt, and the lesson is "don't try to win games unless everything is bulletproof" which is an argument they say on for 7 weeks to make.

This same team won 9 games last year despite having backups in for half the season, and when the starting WRs were going to be WRs 4,5, and 6 on the depth chart this year, the starting LT was going to be line depth behind the draft pick, and the injured draft pick LB from the previous year would return (and Werner looks great).

If you picked the Saints to come in under 9 wins prior to the season you were actively dumb about football. The Saints are 1-5 in one score games and realistically got hosed over in their only non one score game against Tampa. It's just a bad luck year.


Hate losing CJGJ though. Seeing 1-5 in one score games and the injury troubles at DB he'd have been great.

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

MJBuddy posted:

If you picked the Saints to come in under 9 wins prior to the season you were actively dumb about football. The Saints are 1-5 in one score games and realistically got hosed over in their only non one score game against Tampa. It's just a bad luck year.

I picked the Saints to win less than 9 games because I think Dennis Allen is a bad coach.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

I just hope every team loses always.

MJBuddy
Sep 22, 2008

Now I do not know whether I was then a head coach dreaming I was a Saints fan, or whether I am now a Saints fan, dreaming I am a head coach.

YOLOsubmarine posted:

I picked the Saints to win less than 9 games because I think Dennis Allen is a bad coach.

I don't even know what to make of him beyond the defense being worse now that he's HC.

BlindSite posted:

I just hope every team loses always.

You've come to the right division

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

BlindSite posted:

I just hope every team loses always.

Well you picked the right division

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
New goal: win the division at 6-11. Then win 4 playoff games including the Super Bowl and finish the season as champions at 10-11

wandler20
Nov 13, 2002

How many Championships?

MJBuddy posted:

Winston was a top 10 QB

Wait a minute...

Nervous
Jan 25, 2005

Why, hello, my little slice of pecan pie.

Alaois posted:

actually the much funnier outcome would be the Bills losing in the super bowl to the Giants

And thus the Legend of Danny Dimes was born.

Relentlessboredomm
Oct 15, 2006

It's Sic Semper Tyrannis. You said, "Ever faithful terrible lizard."

MJBuddy posted:

Winston was a top 10 QB the prior year

lmao

The Big Jesus
Oct 29, 2007

#essereFerrari

MJBuddy posted:

It's such poo poo analysis.

Winston was a top 10 QB the prior year and they expected to get him back and not injured. They've likely lost the most combined games of starters/pro bowl talent, the draft pick got hurt, and the lesson is "don't try to win games unless everything is bulletproof" which is an argument they say on for 7 weeks to make.

This same team won 9 games last year despite having backups in for half the season, and when the starting WRs were going to be WRs 4,5, and 6 on the depth chart this year, the starting LT was going to be line depth behind the draft pick, and the injured draft pick LB from the previous year would return (and Werner looks great).

If you picked the Saints to come in under 9 wins prior to the season you were actively dumb about football. The Saints are 1-5 in one score games and realistically got hosed over in their only non one score game against Tampa. It's just a bad luck year.


Hate losing CJGJ though. Seeing 1-5 in one score games and the injury troubles at DB he'd have been great.

Nice meltdown.

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
Winston being a top ten QB might be the most insane thing posted in this entire forum

kidcoelacanth
Sep 23, 2009

winston's a top 10 qb if you look at the numbers

now, which numbers makes all the difference here

Silly Burrito
Nov 27, 2007

SET A COURSE FOR
THE FLAVOR QUADRANT
I would like to only see the good numbers please

Joey Freshwater
Jun 20, 2004

Always playing with my meat
Grimey Drawer
69, 420

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

kidcoelacanth posted:

winston's a top 10 qb if you look at the numbers

now, which numbers makes all the difference here

yeah he can rack up lots of yards and TDs but since he loves to panic and throw the ball to the other team, it leads to bad game outcomes!

YOLOsubmarine
Oct 19, 2004

When asked which Pokemon he evolved into, Kamara pauses.

"Motherfucking, what's that big dragon shit? That orange motherfucker. Charizard."

WampaLord posted:

yeah he can rack up lots of yards and TDs but since he loves to panic and throw the ball to the other team, it leads to bad game outcomes!

He was doing pretty well avoiding ints to start last season but there was no way that was ever going to be sustainable without Sean Payton basically controlling him like a puppet.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.
The last pick of the 30/30 year was his last pass that season right?

ozymandius1024
Mar 15, 2006

You don't yank on the Spine of God

Shimrra Jamaane posted:

The last pick of the 30/30 year was his last pass that season right?

It was a pick 6 to lose the game :lol:

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 10, 2007

Obscure to all except those well-versed in Yuuzhan Vong lore.

ozymandius1024 posted:

It was a pick 6 to lose the game :lol:

Art

Nervous
Jan 25, 2005

Why, hello, my little slice of pecan pie.

ozymandius1024 posted:

It was a pick 6 to lose the game :lol:

The NFL is scripted. That's one of the better ones though.

SundayMoney
Feb 21, 2006

The face of the new economy
One thing to remember is that Sean Payton had basically beat into Jameis by words or by playcalling to not take a risk. So if you look there are some very conservative numbers. Who knows if it would have continued throughout the year but Sean could and did definitely pull more rank than Dennis Allen and Pete Carmichael can.

Since he wasn't turning the ball over a bunch, he probably does look like a top 10 QB, but it was at the sacrifice of some of his amazing throws as well.

Epi Lepi
Oct 29, 2009

You can hear the voice
Telling you to Love
It's the voice of MK Ultra
And you're doing what it wants

ozymandius1024 posted:

It was a pick 6 to lose the game :lol:

Was that his last year on the Bucs? Did he begin and end his time in Tampa with pick sixes? I'm pretty sure his first pass was a pick-six to Tennessee.

wandler20
Nov 13, 2002

How many Championships?

Epi Lepi posted:

Was that his last year on the Bucs? Did he begin and end his time in Tampa with pick sixes? I'm pretty sure his first pass was a pick-six to Tennessee.

He sure did

Nervous
Jan 25, 2005

Why, hello, my little slice of pecan pie.

wandler20 posted:

He sure did

True to himself until the very end.

WampaLord
Jan 14, 2010

wandler20 posted:

He sure did

It's like poetry, it rhymes.

really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

WampaLord posted:

It's like poetry, it rhymes.

Jameis is a funnier character than we've had before

MJBuddy
Sep 22, 2008

Now I do not know whether I was then a head coach dreaming I was a Saints fan, or whether I am now a Saints fan, dreaming I am a head coach.

SundayMoney posted:

One thing to remember is that Sean Payton had basically beat into Jameis by words or by playcalling to not take a risk. So if you look there are some very conservative numbers. Who knows if it would have continued throughout the year but Sean could and did definitely pull more rank than Dennis Allen and Pete Carmichael can.

Since he wasn't turning the ball over a bunch, he probably does look like a top 10 QB, but it was at the sacrifice of some of his amazing throws as well.

The lack of amazing throws was probably the non existent WRs, but yeah by DVOA he was top 10 even including the horrible horrible panthers game with no coaches.

wandler20
Nov 13, 2002

How many Championships?
ESPN did a big article on Rhule's time with the Panthers. Nothing too shocking in there but figured some of you might want to read it and it's paywalled.

quote:

IN THE FINAL week of Matt Rhule's 33-month tenure as a first-time NFL head coach, his Carolina Panthers took the practice field situated in the shadow of Charlotte's Bank of America Stadium for what should have been routine 7-on-7 work.

Routine would have been good. This was something worse, a scene of uninspired football borne partially if not totally of harsh roster realities.

Overthrown passes. Turnovers. Mistimed routes. Rhule and his coaching staff looked on, standing oddly quiet. Panthers players appeared restless, the stress of a bad start palpable and "very heavy," as a team source described. Perhaps, in the grim prelude to a 37-15 home loss to the San Francisco 49ers that would send Carolina to 1-4 before a sea of empty seats, the entire organization had become resigned to its fate.

This team can't win without a quarterback.

Against the 49ers on Oct. 9, offseason acquisition and former No. 1 overall pick Baker Mayfield saw his league-worst QBR drop to a microscopic 15.5 before leaving the game with a torn ligament in his left ankle. For the 27th time in Rhule's 27 losses with the Panthers, the opponent needed to reach only 17 points to beat Carolina. The time-honored NFL notion of winning a shootout was completely lost on the Matt Rhule Panthers.

Watch live on Oct. 30: Broncos vs. Jaguars in London, only on ESPN+

The next day, and less than seven years removed from a 15-1 season and Super Bowl appearance, the franchise hit rock bottom with the Oct. 10 firing of Rhule, dismissed after presiding over 11 wins in two-plus seasons, with more than four years and $40 million remaining on his contract.

The ousted Rhule and fourth-year Panthers owner David Tepper have shouldered much of the blame for the franchise's downturn, and all threads of Carolina's unraveling lead back to the choices made at one position -- quarterback. The Panthers' instability and dubious decision-making, which sometimes included disagreements among ownership, the coaching staff and front office, highlight the direct connection between quarterback play and franchise strength.

In all, five quarterbacks started for Rhule -- the coach handpicked by Tepper in January 2020 and given control of the roster along with a seven-year, $62 million contract -- a revolving door reflecting organizational efforts to locate a top passer that ultimately failed.

"They shot for the stars," a veteran NFL coach and former Rhule staffer said. "They ended up with Teddy [Bridgewater], Sam [Darnold] and Baker."

Those with inside knowledge of the Panthers' three-season signal-caller saga paint a picture of bad deals, for the wrong quarterbacks, decided upon in large part by Rhule -- who proved to be the wrong coach.



Tepper (left) gave the inexperienced Rhule a rich contract and final say over personnel matters in bringing him to Carolina. AP Photo/Mike McCarn
THE START OF the Rhule era offered the organization an opportunity to turn the page at quarterback. The 2019 season had seen the nine-year Cam Newton era come to an unceremonious end, as mounting injuries cost the former league MVP 14 games and prompted the team to quietly part ways with him on March 24, 2020, a time when the country was in the early grip of the COVID-19 pandemic.

While on lockdown, the team's coaching staff, scouts and front office -- led by longtime general manager Marty Hurney -- virtually plotted their strategy for the April draft, with several draft experts speculating the team would spend the No. 7 overall pick on a quarterback -- or move up to make it happen.

Hired Jan. 7, Rhule had 107 days to prepare for the draft, with a scouting staff he inherited, as is the norm when an NFL team changes coaches.

A scouting department source said it ranked LSU's Joe Burrow the top quarterback in the draft, with Oregon's Justin Herbert a close second and Alabama's Tua Tagovailoa third. Longtime NFL scout Donnie Warren, who was let go by Carolina before that year's draft and joined Ron Rivera in Washington for two years before retiring, confirmed Hurney "loved" Herbert and mentioned numerous times that he was high on his potential.

"[Rhule] knew where we stood, that this [draft] was a chance to get a long-term solution at the position," the scouting source said. "Not having a full evaluation process and staff meetings due to COVID could have affected that process. We weren't meeting in person."

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The scouting department did enough legwork on Herbert to know the other teams that might also be in pursuit. There was a sense of what it would take to move from their No. 7 selection to the New York Giants' spot at No. 4, jumping the Miami Dolphins (No. 5) and Los Angeles Chargers (No. 6), who were believed to be locked on quarterbacks. Then-Giants general manager Dave Gettleman was a longtime Panthers executive with existing relationships in the building. A trade seemed plausible, but would not be pursued.

Though Carolina's scouts wanted Herbert, a Panthers front-office source said there was concern that trading draft capital to make it happen could hurt other areas of the team.

The Dolphins would ultimately select Tagovailoa at No. 5, and Herbert would go No. 6 overall to the Chargers. The Panthers would remain at No. 7 and select defensive tackle Derrick Brown. In fact, Rhule and Carolina used all seven of their draft picks on defensive players, the first class in the common era to consist of all defenders.

By the time the draft arrived, Carolina had already executed on a QB plan that team sources say started and ended with veteran Teddy Bridgewater. Bridgewater, who had worked with new Carolina offensive coordinator Joe Brady when he was a Saints offensive assistant in 2018, had played well in a five-game stretch relieving injured starter Drew Brees in 2019 and was an unrestricted free agent.


Teddy Bridgewater was Matt Rhule's Plan A in 2020, but could not get the Panthers over the hump. Derick E. Hingle-USA TODAY Sports
Competition for Bridgewater's free agent services was fierce, and despite the presence of both Tom Brady and former NC State star Philip Rivers in the free agent market, the Panthers were fixated on Bridgewater. He was considered a prime option for Tampa Bay if the Bucs struck out on Brady. As they did with Rhule's deal, the Panthers aggressively secured Bridgewater with a three-year, $63 million contract. Signing Bridgewater was viewed within the industry and within the team as a sensible move, a bridge to a long-term solution, allowing the offense to function in a transitional year while rebuilding other areas of the team through the draft.

The faction of the organization that was against drafting Herbert received what might have seemed like vindication in Week 3 of the 2020 season, when Bridgewater and the Panthers defeated Herbert and the Chargers in Los Angeles -- Rhule's first NFL win. But behind the scenes, a few of the scouts who had pushed for Herbert squirmed as they watched the 22-year-old throw for 330 yards, showing the poise and command of an offense they believed could have stabilized the position for a decade or more. Even as Carolina celebrated the win, one scout remembers texting another: "Man, we were right."

Herbert would win NFL Rookie of the Year. Bridgewater would win four more games before being traded to the Denver Broncos in exchange for a sixth-round draft choice on the eve of the 2021 draft, earning $31 million for one season in Carolina -- $24 million during the season and another $7 million to go away.


Before winning the Super Bowl with the Rams, Matthew Stafford appeared close to becoming a Carolina Panther. Mark J. Rebilas-USA TODAY Sports
BEFORE PURCHASING THE Panthers from embattled owner Jerry Richardson in 2018, the Pittsburgh-born-and-raised Tepper amassed a fortune as a hedge fund manager.

In the winter of 2021, less than three years into his tenure, Tepper was discovering that success in pro football was more elusive. Teams were lucky to hit on three picks in the draft. Free agent acquisitions sometimes didn't work out. The reality didn't sit well with Tepper, according to a front-office source.

"He expects football guys to be 100% right, like they are evaluating a balance sheet, and sometimes they are flat-out wrong," the source said.

With Bridgewater on the way out, Tepper and the Panthers -- including newly appointed GM Scott Fitterer, hired away from the Seattle Seahawks in January 2021 after Tepper fired Hurney -- eyed a bigger name. The Detroit Lions' Matthew Stafford, one of the league's most dependable quarterbacks, had requested a trade.

Just weeks into the job, Fitterer almost pulled off a massive coup, working the phones with Lions general manager Brad Holmes to try to secure Stafford via trade, then meeting with Holmes' staff in Mobile, Alabama, during Senior Bowl week in January. The Panthers made a compelling offer for Stafford that included the eighth overall pick in that year's draft.

Fitterer and Holmes talked on the field pregame and were close on a deal, per a Carolina front-office source, with the Lions sending over medical records of Stafford's previous back injury.

Multiple Carolina assistant coaches say they boarded the team plane at the conclusion of the Senior Bowl thinking they had gotten Stafford. By the time they landed in Charlotte, word had leaked that Stafford was bound for the Los Angeles Rams.

Fitterer called Holmes, who apologized and said the L.A. deal came together quickly.

"Came out of nowhere," a front-office source said. "Sounds like [Stafford] and [Rams coach Sean McVay] hit it off in the hot tub [in Cabo]."


Rhule was behind the deal that brought Sam Darnold to the Panthers, but strong early returns yielded to more of the same in Carolina. Jim Dedmon-USA TODAY Sports
WITH STAFFORD OFF the table, coaches were asked to watch film of three potential targets: Carson Wentz, who had fallen out of favor in Philadelphia; Drew Lock, who had shown flashes of ability in a 13-game starting stretch in Denver the previous season; and Darnold, the former No. 3 overall pick who was on the outs with the New York Jets.

Weeks after that evaluation session, Rhule sent a group text to his coaches indicating the team was about to trade for Darnold and requesting to keep the intel private. The idea to trade for Darnold had begun with Rhule, who a front-office source said popped into Fitterer's office after a defensive staff meeting to ask what the GM thought of the possibility.

Fitterer scouted Darnold while with the Seahawks and was intrigued by the former USC star's arm and escapability. The Panthers thought a change in scenery could help Darnold, a chance to pair with Joe Brady aiding Darnold's growth.

People inside the building had different interpretations for how Rhule, who did not respond to multiple requests to be interviewed for this story, handled personnel decisions.

One team source said Rhule preferred to reach consensus with Fitterer before taking a plan to Tepper, describing the process as "collaborative." That differs from another team source, who said Rhule's leadership style was to "wear everybody out" until he got his way, even in big groups, and sometimes operated impulsively. In this case, Rhule was willing to overlook Darnold's well-documented problems with turnovers and accuracy.

"It was Darnold, Darnold, Darnold [for Rhule] that offseason," a front-office source said.

The Panthers agreed to send a sixth-round pick in 2021 and second- and fourth-rounders in 2022 to the Jets in exchange for Darnold, staking their near-term future to a player who had recorded a 13-25 record with the Jets and had yet to produce a 20-touchdown season. Carolina then doubled down on the decision, picking up his fifth-year option and guaranteeing him $18.8 million before he had taken a snap as a Panther.

Fitterer's logic on the option, per a front-office source, was this: The two-year payout would be reasonable, considering Darnold's $4.7 million due in 2021, and he'd be much more expensive if he lit up the field that season. Tepper, per a team source, questioned placing that value on Darnold so early in his relationship with the team but "reluctantly" approved, a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations said.

For a moment, it appeared Carolina had pushed the right buttons. Darnold started his Panthers career with a victory over the Jets, and the team won its next two games to push Carolina to 3-0 for the first time in six years. It would represent the high point of the Rhule era.

The team would lose five of its next six games, a stretch that saw Darnold throw four touchdown passes to 10 interceptions before injuring his throwing shoulder. The Panthers' subpar offensive line and running back Christian McCaffrey's Week 3 injury contributed to Darnold's struggles. But the New York version of Darnold, hiding under the surface, finally bubbled.

"It went from a decent setup to WTF," said a team source of the offense's descent. As the losses mounted, Tepper's blood boiled, with one front-office source describing him as "furious" over the way Darnold's fifth-year option hung over the franchise. (A source close to the owner said the "furious" characterization was too strong).


Tepper (left, with general manager Scott Fitterer) was characterized as 'furious' over the guaranteed $18.8 million option paid to a benched Sam Darnold. Bob Donnan/USA TODAY Sports
Tepper had a predilection for tracking social media mentions and media reports on his team, multiple sources said. One front-office source described his approach as "stream of consciousness," unafraid to vent to confidants about his frustrations with the team -- including quarterback play.

Even before Darnold's injury, one former member of Rhule's staff noted how the organization's support of the quarterback grew increasingly tepid, and reports about a possible quarterback change were not firmly dismissed.

"A quarterback has to feel like he's the most important guy in the building, and I don't think those guys ever felt that way," said the staff member of the benched quarterbacks. "They [Rhule and the Panthers] were always looking for something better. Zero patience."

"Something better" was in the eye of the beholder, and following Darnold's injury the gaze would become fixed on Newton, the former No. 1 overall pick who had led the Panthers to Super Bowl 50 in 2015. Newton had been released by the New England Patriots, with the shoulder injury suffered in the final year of his first stint in Carolina causing him to lose much of the zip on his throws. Rhule hadn't wanted Newton two years earlier, but the Panthers had limited options and hoped his leadership would help a young team.

While team sources say Newton was an ideal teammate and "worked his rear end off" to master the offense, the Panthers would go 0-5 with him as the starter. Darnold would be back behind center before the end of a 5-12 season that placed the entire organization in the crosshairs entering 2022.


The Panthers' quarterback desperation prompted them to consider a deal that would have brought Deshaun Watson back to the Carolinas. AP Photo/Eric Christian Smith
AFTER TWO YEARS together, Rhule and Tepper were spinning in a circle entering the 2022 offseason, facing an identical scenario at quarterbac k from the previous year: pursuing a splashy quarterback trade that was difficult to consummate while sifting through bridge options. And all this while owing nearly $20 million to Darnold. A desperate organization considered an explosive option: Deshaun Watson.

The Panthers had eyed Watson after he requested a trade from the Houston Texans in January 2021 but before he was accused by more than two dozen women of sexual misconduct during massage sessions, behavior that ultimately resulted in an 11-game NFL suspension.

But the allegations didn't end the Panthers' pursuit as Rhule, Fitterer and Tepper plotted ways to land the former Clemson star.

Watson was scheduled to meet with four teams -- the Panthers, New Orleans Saints, Atlanta Falcons and Cleveland Browns -- shortly after a grand jury declined to pursue criminal charges against him in March 2022. A source close to Watson said the quarterback thought "super highly of" the Panthers after a meeting with Tepper, Rhule and Fitterer. On the day Watson agreed to a trade to Cleveland that included a market-shattering, fully guaranteed deal of $230 million, ESPN reported the Panthers had balked at Watson's demand for the full guarantee.

A source close to Watson says that doesn't tell the whole story. Carolina was not Watson's first choice, though the Panthers were heavily in the mix at the end. Also, the notion throughout the league that Rhule was on the hot seat was a concern.

"The uncertainty with the coaching staff was a factor," the source said.

The Panthers got back to work on QB options, evaluating free agents Marcus Mariota and Mitch Trubisky, the latter a former college star at North Carolina. Front-office sources say Fitterer liked Trubisky to compete with Darnold for the starting job, but Trubisky eventually signed a two-year, $14.285 million deal with the Pittsburgh Steelers -- which offered a clearer path to a starting job.

Former Super Bowl starter Jimmy Garoppolo, who had been granted permission to pursue a trade from the San Francisco 49ers, was also available. Garoppolo led the Niners to the NFC championship in 2021, but a source close to the quarterback said the Panthers never had extended dialogue with Garoppolo's representatives. Carolina had concerns about when Garoppolo would be ready to participate in camp, a front-office source said, as he recovered from offseason shoulder surgery. Matt Ryan, who was being shopped by the Falcons, was briefly discussed, but per a front-office source, the Panthers thought it unlikely Atlanta would move him within the division.

Meanwhile, Watson's presence in Cleveland had rendered former No. 1 pick Mayfield available, and Carolina had been widely viewed among the logical matches for Mayfield's services. Talks between the two sides began before the draft, but on the second night of the event, Fitterer notified Browns GM Andrew Berry that the Panthers needed to hit pause, realizing they wouldn't bridge the financial gap on Mayfield's contract.

play
2:01
Did QB struggles lead to Matt Rhule's downfall with the Panthers?Adam Schefter details the Panthers' quarterback carousel that Matt Rhule oversaw in Carolina.
Tepper insisted on getting a "great deal" on Mayfield's $18.8 million, fully guaranteed fifth-year option, which a source with direct knowledge of the negotiations believed was due to the financial strain of Darnold's salary. A team source added that Tepper valued "checks and balances," particularly on assets considered depressed. One source with direct knowledge of the deal said Mayfield was, at one point, asked about potentially relinquishing about $7 million of his $18.8 million (coincidentally, the same figure as Darnold's), a nonstarter with the player.

By early July, Mayfield's camp had grown restless.

While Rhule strongly endorsed acquiring Mayfield, a team source said multiple people in the building weren't thrilled with the move. Fitterer was open to it, a front-office source said, and also supported the team's third-round selection of Matt Corral, a quick-trigger QB out of Ole Miss, in the 2022 draft.

Tepper gave all parties involved a July 5 deadline to finalize a deal. Everyone was on vacation -- Mayfield's agent, Thomas Mills, in Wisconsin, and Fitterer in the Hamptons for his wedding anniversary -- but worked through texts and calls in order to arrive at a deal. Ultimately, Mayfield agreed to relinquish part of his guarantee -- the Browns would pay $10.5 million, the Panthers $4.858 million plus incentives.

A deal had been struck, but precious time had been lost in getting Mayfield ready for 2022. The continued presence of Darnold, who some team sources believed competed admirably with Mayfield in camp before suffering a high ankle sprain in the preseason, only enhanced the tension. (Darnold's $18.858 million cap number remains the highest on the team for 2022.) Even though multiple sources agree Mayfield pulled away in the competition late in the preseason, those same sources were skeptical as to whether Rhule truly considered an option other than the team's latest acquisition.

"It felt like [Rhule's] plan was anyone but Sam at QB," a team source said.


Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold competed in training camp heading into 2022, but sources believe Rhule was set on Mayfield. Griffin Zetterberg-USA TODAY Sports
In a Week 1 reunion with the Cleveland Browns, Mayfield nearly rewarded Rhule's faith in him, playing well enough to rally the Panthers from a double-digit fourth-quarter deficit in a stretch that included an electrifying 75-yard touchdown pass to Robbie Anderson. As the clock ticked south of one minute to play, Carolina held a 24-23 lead, but could not hold on as a 58-yard Cade York field goal doomed the team to a 26-24 home loss.

Three largely nondescript defeats would follow in the next four games. A winnable game on the road against a moderately talented Giants team in Week 2 turned into a 19-16 loss when Mayfield posted a 13.8 QBR on 145 yards passing.

A three-game homestand would follow and would play out as Rhule's version of Waterloo. A shaky 22-14 win over the Saints kept the wolves at bay, but produced few passing-game highlights apart from a 67-yard touchdown pass from Mayfield to Laviska Shenault Jr.

It would get uglier. Mayfield committed three turnovers and was loudly booed throughout the second half of a 26-16 loss to the Arizona Cardinals, finishing the game in a mostly empty Bank of America Stadium.

"I don't care about the fact that our fans are booing, or what's going on," Mayfield said afterward. "When we figure it out and we win, it's still going to be just us in the locker room -- and that's all we care about."

Then came the final, fateful final loss to the 49ers, a game in which a healthy Garoppolo thoroughly outplayed his opposite QB number. Again, Mayfield was booed by an increasingly frustrated Panthers fan base, which by the end was outnumbered by 49ers fans.

The Panthers knew Mayfield had limited time to learn the playbook, and he proved to be a quick learner. But they were surprised by the accuracy issues of a player Rhule considered a difference-maker. As a front-office source said, Rhule believed he had built a good team and that Mayfield would "stabilize the quarterback position" -- hopefully once and for all. That the move didn't yield results sealed the coach's fate.


The day after the 49ers loss, Rhule entered the team meeting room from a side door as coaches and players waited. He began by addressing hopes for that week's game against the Rams -- some players weren't sure where the message was headed, but there was a sense that closure was coming. Eventually, Rhule delivered the news that he had been let go, attempting to end his tenure on a positive note. He told his team how talented it was, and how he wished he could be there to see them grow and win.

Players were not exactly shocked by the news. Rhule was widely considered a bright football coach but had his challenges in the locker room, with one player saying the building felt "heavy," and teammates didn't always feel like they could be themselves. Though a team source said he did a better job relating to players in his final year, Rhule was hard on his assistants and sometimes clashed with them as a result, according to multiple team sources. And of course, the offensive football was far from good.

As Rhule began to leave, a prominent team member stepped up to address the reeling team in an attempt to galvanize and move forward. The franchise leader was the star running back McCaffrey. It was telling that in this moment leadership would come from neither a coach nor a quarterback. Ten days later, in a move signifying the organization's intention to reset, McCaffrey was dealt to the 49ers.


By Week 7, Darnold, Mayfield and Corral were all injured, and PJ Walker was the only original 2022 quarterback still standing.

SCROLL THROUGH THE Panthers' list of salaried players for 2023 and exactly one quarterback name appears: Corral -- sitting out this season due to a foot injury suffered in training camp -- at $1.157 million.

Darnold, Mayfield and current starter PJ Walker are scheduled to become free agents.

The quarterback slate will have been mostly wiped clean, with the possibilities seemingly endless entering a crucial year for Carolina's franchise trajectory. Alabama's Bryce Young, Ohio State's C.J. Stroud, Kentucky's Will Levis, Florida's Anthony Richardson and Tennessee's Hendon Hooker highlight a loaded quarterback class ahead of the 2023 draft, and at 2-5, Carolina figures to be in position to land a talented quarterback, or to move up in the draft to fuel the pursuit. After the way the organization has struck out on veteran QBs, most educated league observers believe the team's preference is to upgrade the position through the draft.

With the Nov. 1 trade deadline looming, Fitterer and the Panthers acquired additional draft capital by trading McCaffrey to the 49ers for second-, third-, fourth- and fifth-round picks on Thursday. Linebacker Shaq Thompson and others are also believed to be made available by a team now in the midst of a clear rebuild.

In addition to targeting a QB in the draft, the Panthers might consider signing a veteran for competition and depth purposes, at a minimum.

Along with Darnold, Mayfield, Walker and another old friend in Bridgewater (now Tagovailoa's backup with the Dolphins), the free agent class is expected to include Daniel Jones, Geno Smith, Garoppolo and potentially Brady.

Multiple front-office sources with rival teams say they believe Fitterer and his well-respected core staff will remain intact, seemingly giving Carolina a strong basis from which to rebuild the team.

But so much still hinges on what Tepper does with the head coach vacancy, a move that will undoubtedly inform the team's future at the quarterback position and beyond.

If the next coach is part of a collective on key decisions instead of being given full personnel control, the outcome could be different, including at quarterback. Whether Tepper views that structure as a core piece of the organization's struggles, or whether he simply believes he picked the wrong coach, remains unknown. Tepper told reporters at a news conference the day of the Rhule firing that "a balance is more appropriate between a head coach and a GM." At the very least, he appears open to a shift in setup.

Silly Burrito
Nov 27, 2007

SET A COURSE FOR
THE FLAVOR QUADRANT
So Andy is the full time starter now.

https://twitter.com/MikeTriplett/status/1585356265357967360

zimbomonkey
Jul 15, 2008

Tattoos? On MY black quarterback?
I was really enjoying teams teeing off on Jameis. Oh well.

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Andy Dalton
PJ walker
Marcus Mariota
Tom Brady

Is not an nfc s QB lineup I would have believed 2 years ago change.

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PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

VY till I die
Grimey Drawer

BlindSite posted:

Andy Dalton
PJ walker
Marcus Mariota
Tom Brady

Is not an nfc s QB lineup I would have believed 2 years ago change.

2 years ago you would have needed 4 guesses to pick which QB has the most upside here

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