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zerofiend posted:Yeah? They do? Every single one I've seen has the same issues in the same spots, man. Go look at the Storm Legion heavy, it's got huge concentric circles above the head visible through paint on every one. Every single one you've seen, sure, so what? I didn't make a comment about just the things you've seen yourself. You're gonna tell me literally every model I've seen has those exact same problems? You gotta be joking because that's exactly how your post came across.
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Oct 26, 2022 00:19
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It sounds hyperbolic but ZF is right in that the stepping lines are visible on everything. It's a function of the process and orientation PP is using to produce their figures. You absolutely can eliminate them, but it takes more effort and skill than they're willing to use. It's part of what makes their shift to 3d printing that much more disappointing: We can't buy the files and print them well; Our only option is to pay them (a lot) for rookie errors.
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Oct 26, 2022 01:27
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MCPeePants posted:Can you explain why the new system leads to more accurate unit placement? When you're moving one model and then measuring from that model, it seems to me like you're doubling your uncertainty for every model beyond the first. Measuring a single model and then placing within 2" is a lot easier than measuring the movement of a bunch of models, each of which might by making multiple discrete movements in multiple directions through a combination of rough and open terrain. zerofiend posted:Considering PP's response to them posting the models they were sent for being playtesters (snip) Playtesters weren't sent models. If they claimed they were, it's a blatant lie, so yeah, I know who I believe.
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Oct 26, 2022 02:11
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moths posted:It sounds hyperbolic but ZF is right in that the stepping lines are visible on everything. It's a function of the process and orientation PP is using to produce their figures. No, they said there were problems with every model, and then changed that to stepping lines are visible on every copy of a particular model through a coat of paint. Which is patently untrue, because I've seen these things in person. I'm more than willing to believe that every picture they've seen of that specific miniature is godawful, and every copy they've seen in person is awful as well; even a helluva lot more than me probably since I'm banned in the FB group. But I've seen copies of the cygnar minis in person that were fine with a coat of primer and seen plenty of pictures of ones online that seemed to be as well. The Cygnar ones are absolutely worse off than the others from what I've seen, but don't tell me what I have or haven't seen. That's just being obnoxious. And for what it's worth, I'm not saying this to defend PP - I honestly don't give a poo poo if they live or die at this point with as many bad decisions as they've made in the past 10 years. But some of these responses seem ridiculous.
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Oct 26, 2022 02:25
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rydiafan posted:I mean, the things I listed are all objective facts. New movement rules use fewer measurements, which directly leads to all the things I listed except for flexibility, which is obtained via the the core mechanic. rydiafan posted:Measuring a single model and then placing within 2" is a lot easier than measuring the movement of a bunch of models, each of which might by making multiple discrete movements in multiple directions through a combination of rough and open terrain. The movement rule changes are good. Except the refusal to have a coherency requirement on reposition moves. Reposition in general reintroduces the fiddlyness that the new rules avoid, and the lack of a requirement to maintain coherency after the reposition move amplifies the unintuitive aspects (the gaminess, basically) of the new movement rules. If that turns out to be the biggest problem, that's honestly great. If it plays as as wonky as it seems to, it can be fixed with a post release rule change. Easy to do since the rules are exclusively electronic. Privateer Press had a bunch of announcements today. Short form: when they said competitive play would start in January, they really meant that things were not going to be ready for anything but beta play until January. Privateer Press posted:At this point, we have completed production of 80 percent of the contents of the Orgoth Sea Raiders Core Army Starter that will be produced at Privateer’s production facility, and we’ll be starting in on the Cygnar Storm Legion very soon. The warjacks and warcasters that were outsourced to our UK partner are due to ship by November 15th, and our hope is to be bringing everything together by the end of next month so we can start shipping in December. This will most likely put delivery of the Winter Korps starter in January. From there, we’ll be playing catch up in hopes of regaining our originally planned release schedule for 2023.  No models available for purchase, the app sounds pre-beta, and while I am not sure what "Complete Rules Integration" means, it seems fair to suspect that not all launch rules will be accessible until late November. I think it's fair to scrub the idea that Mark IV is launching in October. This is a public test period. The launch will be January. Which is probably a good thing. The clearly need time to work many thing out. Finally, they confirmed the plan is to have all the legacy prime armies with rules by the end of 2023. When announcing that they forgot to mention anything about Unlimited, so Matt Wilson then posted this:  So, all old models will have rules by the end of 2023, but no precision as to when those rules will arrive.
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Oct 26, 2022 03:09
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poo poo I missed that, thanks for posting the update.
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Oct 26, 2022 03:26
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rydiafan posted:Playtesters weren't sent models. If they claimed they were, it's a blatant lie, so yeah, I know who I believe. Sure bud. That's why PP said they were given pre-production models and that they "didn't need to post the picture" again when DarkLegacy was doing his review stream. Sure. Maneck posted:Privateer Press had a bunch of announcements today. Short form: when they said competitive play would start in January, they really meant that things were not going to be ready for anything but beta play until January. This is just laughable at this point. zerofiend fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 03:46
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S.J. posted:No, they said there were problems with every model, and then changed that to stepping lines are visible on every copy of a particular model through a coat of paint. Which is patently untrue, because I've seen these things in person. I'm more than willing to believe that every picture they've seen of that specific miniature is godawful, and every copy they've seen in person is awful as well; even a helluva lot more than me probably since I'm banned in the FB group. But I've seen copies of the cygnar minis in person that were fine with a coat of primer and seen plenty of pictures of ones online that seemed to be as well. The Cygnar ones are absolutely worse off than the others from what I've seen, but don't tell me what I have or haven't seen. That's just being obnoxious. Giving a big obvious example isn't changing poo poo, my dude. I said the problems they claimed were from pre-production runs were still present on the poo poo sold for retail. It's all amateur hour.
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Oct 26, 2022 03:48
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zerofiend posted:Sure bud. That's why PP said they were given pre-production models and that they "didn't need to post the picture" again when DarkLegacy was doing his review stream. Sure. I would know whether playtesters got free models. I am 100% certain I know more about the details of the playtest than you do. There's zero value in anything you post in this thread at this point. Everything you're saying is either hyperbole or flat out lies. Like, PP is bungling enough about this rollout without you making poo poo up.
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Oct 26, 2022 04:02
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rydiafan posted:I would know whether playtesters got free models. I am 100% certain I know more about the details of the playtest than you do. I'm 100% certain you're full of poo poo, so you can claim whatever poo poo you like. Multiple playtesters who were still in the LOS discord posted pictures of physical models in hand, with a nice printed letter from PP, before GenCon. But you were 100% aware of that, I'm sure. Your hugbox approach to this rapidly dying company is of just maybe equal value to calling out how pathetic this launch is. rydianfan gonna stamp feet about being wrong grrr zerofiend fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 04:08
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zerofiend posted:I'm 100% certain you're full of poo poo, so you can claim whatever poo poo you like. lol, ok. You obviously don't know who I am. I'm putting you on ignore now.
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Oct 26, 2022 04:20
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rydiafan posted:lol, ok. You obviously don't know who I am. Nobody gives a poo poo who you are, mod removed. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Somebody fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 04:20
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Actually a lot of people in the PP community have cared very much about who he is for a long time lol but keep going off
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Oct 26, 2022 05:13
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If who he is is so important, why keep dancing around it instead of just telling us? Is it a secret? This is all so weird.
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Oct 26, 2022 05:15
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It doesn't really matter. The point is more that they're just acting more like a Facebook shitposter when anyone has a disagreement than actually trying to participate in any kind of discussion. Plenty of people here criticize PP and their products without being shitheads about it
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Oct 26, 2022 05:17
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Lets be friends and have a laugh at Privateer Press Privateer Pressing a new edition. The new models are great sculpts. And notwithstanding that, no one is disputing that the quality of the product arriving is often well below what can be achieved with 3D printing. The weeds of precisely what the problems will be is mostly unknowable since we're still months away from the actual launch models becoming widely available, so lets focus on the hilarity that is:
It is conceptually challenging to count how many discrete ways this company is shooting itself in the foot. It's amazing. And here I am, hoping they succeed despite it all, because I bought into the game in 2018 and hardly got to use my models through a global pandemic, and as far as I can tell the game is quite good.
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Oct 26, 2022 05:25
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It seems to me that they're gambling on 3D printing rapidly becoming the standard for producing tabletop miniatures, which I guess would put them in a good position. Is that a realistic possibility?
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Oct 26, 2022 05:36
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Maneck posted:Lets be friends and have a laugh at Privateer Press Privateer Pressing a new edition. I agree with most of your points. I do think that to your third point, there are other reasons to walk away from the old models. As somebody who got into the game in 2018 you probably know better than most in this thread how overwhelming the model count in WMH was getting for somebody just learning the game. People talk about financial barrier to entry, but knowledge barrier to entry is pretty huge, too. Learning your own army was hard enough, but the number of "if you've never seen this model across the table before you're hosed" that existed in all the factions you weren't playing was insane. The one upside to eliminating a huge portion of the product line in the format they're obviously going to push as the main competitive format is drastically reducing the amount of stuff a new player has to learn. Yes, having a huge chunk of my collection functionally erased from competitive legality sucks, but the reality of the situation (that LOS couldn't see) is that the game dying out was going to erase 100% of my collection from competitive play anyway, and hopefully downsizing the model count will attract new players, allowing me to play with whatever models get Prime rules for years to come, as opposed to playing with nothing against nobody. Again, though, I'm not defending the rollout itself. We're all in agreement that poo poo's being handled badly. I just think with how many bad aspects there have been, it's worth seeing the logic of the more defensible ones, and also fighting outright fictional ones.
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Oct 26, 2022 05:41
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I can add onto the point from a retailer perspective: knowing that the SKU count is big and seeing, inventorying, and having to find physical space for that SKU count really makes it a different conversation. Stocking the amount of poo poo that PP makes to satisfy both competitive and casual nerds is loving impossible and that's just for WMH.
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Oct 26, 2022 05:48
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smug jeebus posted:It seems to me that they're gambling on 3D printing rapidly becoming the standard for producing tabletop miniatures, which I guess would put them in a good position. Is that a realistic possibility? Not like this. And that's for the same reasons publishing houses aren't full of photocopiers. Imagine producing a magazine like Newsweek or Time with a room full of color copiers and a stapler. You could use that tech to produce on-demand back issues at a premium charge, though.
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Oct 26, 2022 10:00
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moths posted:And that's for the same reasons publishing houses aren't full of photocopiers. Imagine producing a magazine like Newsweek or Time with a room full of color copiers and a stapler. Good analogy. rydiafan posted:I do think that to your third point, there are other reasons to walk away from the old models. As somebody who got into the game in 2018 you probably know better than most in this thread how overwhelming the model count in WMH was getting for somebody just learning the game. People talk about financial barrier to entry, but knowledge barrier to entry is pretty huge, too. Learning your own army was hard enough, but the number of "if you've never seen this model across the table before you're hosed" that existed in all the factions you weren't playing was insane. The one upside to eliminating a huge portion of the product line in the format they're obviously going to push as the main competitive format is drastically reducing the amount of stuff a new player has to learn. No argument that an SKU reduction was needed, both from a sales and gameplay point of view. The game's selling point is giant robots and monsters smashing into each other. And yet Skorne have so many infantry units that if half were deleted, it would still be hard to keep them straight. Then there's unit attachments on top of it. So absolutely, SKU count is a good rationale for, "This model is 10 years old and the mold is gone. These four units are similar, they're merging and we'll make just one going forward. The faction is bloated and this model never had a role. They're all gone." Privateer Press didn't do SKU reduction. They took the zero thought route and torched pre-July 2022 models indiscriminately. PP line employee - Hey boss, these zero level casters are great sculpts and have been out less than a year. People coming back for the new edition will love them. Why are we scrapping them? Matt Wilson - We've lost the molds. We just can't continue selling them. PP line employee - Boss, these are computer sculpted. We can just send them to array of 3D printers on the other side of this room. Matt Wilson - That doesn't work. The sculpts weren't designed for that. And there wouldn't be enough of them to make it worth while. PP line employee - Boss, everything we've made for the past 10 years has a computer sculpt. If you're worried about the employee time, there are programs that'll get them printing in an okay way with literally zero effort on our part. Look, I did it with one while you were waving your arms around. It's printing. Matt Wilson: You can't expect me to turn my head slightly to see if that worked. Run the "it's all gone" announcement!
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Oct 26, 2022 15:56
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Don't need to do SKU reduction if nobody wants to carry your stock
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Oct 26, 2022 16:07
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rydiafan posted:I agree with most of your points. I do think that to your third point, there are other reasons to walk away from the old models. As somebody who got into the game in 2018 you probably know better than most in this thread how overwhelming the model count in WMH was getting for somebody just learning the game. People talk about financial barrier to entry, but knowledge barrier to entry is pretty huge, too. Learning your own army was hard enough, but the number of "if you've never seen this model across the table before you're hosed" that existed in all the factions you weren't playing was insane. The one upside to eliminating a huge portion of the product line in the format they're obviously going to push as the main competitive format is drastically reducing the amount of stuff a new player has to learn. Do you have reason to believe that the Prime armies be be a fixture in competitive play for years to come? I've completely been assuming that they'll be phased out in favour of the new stuff even if the inherent weakness of not getting a rack doesn't relegate them to second tier.
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Oct 26, 2022 16:32
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I think an overall SKU reduction is fine, but like many people have thrown around, once they have a good stock of product done and printed, they could have a dedicated print-to-order section of their website where older models are periodically added to a "Legacy Roster" list. They wouldn't have to worry about distributors and warehouse space if everything is sold directly through their online store, and it doesn't cost them more or less than printing any other figure. I don't even really care about necessarily making all these units playable in the new version. I just think a lot of the older models still have a great aesthetic that would be a waste to not try and salvage. What really attracted me to WMH in the first place was how chunky the Warjacks were. And while sure they can just make new models to replace the old ones, I think it would show the community that PP actually gives a poo poo, if they said "Hey, we heard your concerns. We're not gonna have everything ready upfront, but we're slowly going to roll out support our older catalogue alongside our new models."
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Oct 26, 2022 16:41
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MCPeePants posted:Do you have reason to believe that the Prime armies be be a fixture in competitive play for years to come? I've completely been assuming that they'll be phased out in favour of the new stuff even if the inherent weakness of not getting a rack doesn't relegate them to second tier. Prime is the new stuff. Unlimited is the old stuff. It's nice and confusing because PP chose the word that historically referred to their classic models to be the term for the new models.
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Oct 26, 2022 17:02
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rydiafan posted:Prime is the new stuff. Unlimited is the old stuff. lol, right, I think I mean the Legacy armies that are available in the Prime format
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Oct 26, 2022 17:16
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I am not expecting any legacy models to be continuously updated, but only viable for long enough for armies to pop up for each faction before they're phased out entirely. I really hope no one is expecting anything different.
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Oct 26, 2022 18:06
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MCPeePants posted:lol, right, I think I mean the Legacy armies that are available in the Prime format Prime is the competitive arena. Unlimited is everything goes. All of everything they ever made will get rules for unlimited. Only slices of the old stuff will be get a Prime list, along with all the new stuff. Seems like you've got the terminology right. MCPeePants posted:Do you have reason to believe that the Prime armies be be a fixture in competitive play for years to come? I've completely been assuming that they'll be phased out in favour of the new stuff even if the inherent weakness of not getting a rack doesn't relegate them to second tier. Until you posted this, not giving legacy casters spell racks wasn't something on my radar. While racks were missing in the preview legacy armies, those cards were also expressly not complete. It's one thing for release armies to suffer the ravages of time. It's another entirely to leave core features of the new edition out of the legacy armies right from the start. If they're actually planning on turning legacy armies into punching bags for people buying the new models in such an overt way, that's awful. Even then, mind you, they might not properly thumb the scale and let a legacy army dominate due to some broken interaction.
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Oct 26, 2022 18:38
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I've probably fixated on this too much, but just selling the files would eliminate most of the problems with the back catalog. People who really want <unpopular figure> could then find a way to get it printed, it's still part of the game, and PP makes a few bucks off it instead of the nothing they're making now. Piracy is a thing, but no amount of piracy will cost them more than not selling something. Ginning up scarcity only works as a selling point, to drive up FOMO and increase the perceived value of your collection. PP is over-reacting to the concept of someone else profiting off our stuff. By squatting everything, they're just ceeding everything to recasters (and eventually scan-casters if there's enough demand.) I get where that comes from, and it feels like literally every decision in MkIV is a pinball course correction. Their business model is determined by randomly careening at max velocity - in any direction away from emerging problems. Slammed into leaks? BING! Here's MkIII. Molds got stolen? Too many SKU? Ba-DING-ding! Those figures are squatted. BING BING! Leaks again?! MkIV Multiball jackpot!!! Everything seems panic-driven. I don't trust that everybody will have rules by 2024. I don't think they're going to be around that long. They aren't making poor business decisions, they're making snap business reactions and fully commiting to them. E: tl;dr - the game's most pivotal recent changes have been reactions to survive external forces, not focused or intention-driven choices made to improve it moths fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 21:43
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I would prefer that PP get their heads out of their asses if only because I want Warcaster and Monpoc to thrive. Alternatively, a different company snapping up the IP would be ideal. LMAO forever if it was GW, but it won't be
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Oct 26, 2022 22:57
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I completely agree, but what’s the alternative? SKU bloat is more than just a logistical issue. As was previously mentioned, the complexity of each individual theme force, let alone the 20 other factions or subfactions you’re likely to play into is a scholar’s worth of memorization, and for a game that’s big on single-mistake *gotcha!* wins. That just exacerbates the problems of attracting new players to the game. The best thing they could have done was probably to simplify the game, kick the timeline forward 20 years to divorce people’s emotional attachments to characters, consolidate factions into a dozen or so units to choose between, and try to recapture lost attention. They’d have to be able to manufacture those units… Their fuckup was doing this publicly, with a timeframe, and then not being able to meet it. You can argue that going to resin 3D printing is a bigger problem, and I’d entertain that argument, but they can dial in the settings to eliminate bad layer stepping. Like, that doesn’t even require them to go back to the 3D model. You could trial and error to correct it given enough time. They also probably should have renamed the game system, made it it’s own thing and just bolted on the units to Mk.3 Warmahordes. Leave WMH as a system altogether with everything complete. Hordesmawar is the new game, backwards compatible with Warmahordes, but it’s own thing. That way people don’t get up in their feels because Protectorate no longer exists as a faction. It’s just not a Hordesmawar faction, but you can play the Duskelfvampires into Protectorate by using this conversion card to change their stats into Mk.3 compatible rules. Not manufacturing the old models is probably a deathknell any way you slice it, but at least you don’t piss off the people who already own 2 or 3 of every unit in a particular faction.
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Oct 26, 2022 23:02
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FrostyPox posted:I would prefer that PP get their heads out of their asses if only because I want Warcaster and Monpoc to thrive. No one is going to buy up an IP and then have to drop a million dollars to get molds remade in order to sell models for it. Thats where the value in the IP was mostly contained.
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Oct 26, 2022 23:05
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Of course they won't, I'm just saying that'd be the ideal. Monpoc and Warcaster, AFIAK, didn't get their molds yoinked so those IPs would be viable, but also not nearly as valuable as Warmachine
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Oct 26, 2022 23:14
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Actually at this point I'm pretty confident that monpoc is way more valuable than warmahordes tbh. They sell a good amount of that line.
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Oct 26, 2022 23:39
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This would have been a great moment to figure out a real, single, canonical name for your goddamn product line for sure.
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Oct 27, 2022 03:27
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counterspin posted:This would have been a great moment to figure out a real, single, canonical name for your goddamn product line for sure. Oh, yeah, did they not do this? I thought they got rid of hordes entirely?
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Oct 27, 2022 11:03
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As a separate game, yeah, it's all Warmachine now but the way Warlocks and Warbeasts work is the same.
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Oct 27, 2022 12:29
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I'm curious, how many gonns here think that PP can/will pull this off and return Warmachine to at least a fairly-popular game? Maybe not the heights of Mk2 popular, but a game that has its own fairly healthy ecosystem and competitive circut. No judgement, just curious how folks are generally feeling about the future, not nessecarily about their current misteps/woes.
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Oct 27, 2022 13:25
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Hipster Occultist posted:I'm curious, how many gonns here think that PP can/will pull this off and return Warmachine to at least a fairly-popular game? Maybe not the heights of Mk2 popular, but a game that has its own fairly healthy ecosystem and competitive circut. I expect it to be fail and the IP told be sold. I don't want it to but I think a lot of bad choices have been made and I don't think a lot of people who stopped playing will be coming back. I used to have a decent sized group of buddies I played with. We stopped playing at some point in 3rd pre covid. My one buddy just threw his models out. Another just donated them to a thrift shop. I might try and sell mine but the 2nd hand market around here is not great for sellers.
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Oct 27, 2022 13:31
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They won’t. Warmachine didn’t reach the dire state it was in by chance, it took years of brain drain and mismanagement. The factors that caused that brain drain and mismanagement are all still there. Nothing meaningful has changed.
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Oct 27, 2022 13:32
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