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Dreylad posted:As far as I can tell people complaining about the game not having "free market capitalism" seem to be missing letting the AI develop your economy for you as with previous titles? haven't played this one yet but in vicky 2 this basically depended on the power structure of your country. monarchies and command economies were responsible for building their own industry but free market economies just depended on your own Capitalist poptype choosing to build things (presumably based on market forces), which costs you Monarch Number but you don't have much control over what dumb poo poo they build so you'd just get some maxed out railroads in an empty province i assume this game works the same way? does it improve on the mechanics over vicky 2 beyond presumably better graphics that are pointless in a game mostly played in menus
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Oct 26, 2022 22:09
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oscarthewilde posted:wrote an effort post on vicky 3 in the other thread but they're too busy having slapfights about steam forum posts and reviews (lol, pathethic). wonder what you guys think: yeah sounds right, the lategame resource crunch especially sucks. I feel like it hopefully just needs some more balance and AI passes, the foundation seems strong at least
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Oct 26, 2022 22:09
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all the scrubs are up in arms about how Vicky 3 doesn't sufficiently model "free market capitalism," but the real grogs are still annoyed about how CK3 models the development of an early modern fiscal-military state hundreds of years too early.
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Oct 26, 2022 22:12
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The player gets to control the entire economy in a video game? Well I loving never.
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Oct 26, 2022 22:14
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if they want accurate free market nonsense theres always vic 2's economy if you got liberals in charge it just collapsed pretty quickly
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Oct 26, 2022 22:15
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Controlling the day-to-day movements of armies on the opposites ends of Europe in 1200 is proper gameplay Deciding when and where a Belgian paper mill is set up in 1857 is Stalinism
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Oct 26, 2022 22:17
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Atrocious Joe posted:Deciding when and where a Belgian paper mill is set up in 1857 is Stalinism you say this like it's a bad thing, you handsome devil
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Oct 26, 2022 22:18
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StashAugustine posted:yeah lassiez-faire actually seems pretty strong here, though free trade is kind of a trap. but you the player are doing it instead of a brain dead ai so it's communist I can see why people are missing that laissez faire feeling when you have to build 45 furniture factories while your population starves to death yourself instead of AI capitalists doing it for you I know I don't really have to say it here, but people would be surprised by how much early modern states had to invest in developing their own industries or propping up private investment firms that were complete shitshows. Dreylad has issued a correction as of 22:24 on Oct 26, 2022 |
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Oct 26, 2022 22:21
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Danann posted:always obliterate the landlords and in the game, too
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Oct 26, 2022 22:34
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Atrocious Joe posted:all the scrubs are up in arms about how Vicky 3 doesn't sufficiently model "free market capitalism," but the real grogs are still annoyed about how CK3 models the development of an early modern fiscal-military state hundreds of years too early. This is why you just play all the tribal societies that run purely on prestige.
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Oct 26, 2022 22:42
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Dreylad posted:I can see why people are missing that laissez faire feeling when you have to build 45 furniture factories while your population starves to death yourself instead of AI capitalists doing it for you Thats why history classes completley gloss over that in favor of the capitalist propaganda
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Oct 26, 2022 23:19
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Been chugging along as Mexico trying to build up my market, US went to war with the UK very early over something to do with Argentina so they've left me alone all game so far. If I'm wanting to flip communist should I keep things as lovely as I can or is the game going to let me pass a bunch of reforms and hit the communism button?
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Oct 26, 2022 23:21
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Ignorant Hick posted:Been chugging along as Mexico trying to build up my market, US went to war with the UK very early over something to do with Argentina so they've left me alone all game so far. If I'm wanting to flip communist should I keep things as lovely as I can or is the game going to let me pass a bunch of reforms and hit the communism button? If you're going for reform it's by marginalizing the political power of the liberals and reactionaries as much as possible typically through a combination of IG suppression and restructuring of the economic buildings. Meanwhile you're promoting the power of the communist IG (or sometimes some leader flips communist and declares it's time everyone has nothing to lose but their chains).
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Oct 26, 2022 23:29
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Ignorant Hick posted:Been chugging along as Mexico trying to build up my market, US went to war with the UK very early over something to do with Argentina so they've left me alone all game so far. If I'm wanting to flip communist should I keep things as lovely as I can or is the game going to let me pass a bunch of reforms and hit the communism button? as long as you get communist-leaning interest groups in government you can reform into it although you might face violent reactionary backlash if the other interest groups aren't appeased or marginalised. In my case as Sweden into Scandinavia I didn't have much trouble switching from monarchy to a council republic, but becoming a command economy angered the industrialists so much that I only narrowly avoided a revolt.
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Oct 26, 2022 23:29
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The weirder political issue for me is the "comfy" aesthetics of Vicky 3 combined with the reality of the period. It was interesting to watch this live streamer get a genocidal event and struggle about how to answer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydJqPlbxhGY&t=639s In other parts he pursues edicts like women's suffrage because "it's the right thing to do." that question pops up and suddenly its all "from a gameplay perspective, this is the better button." I think the idea of gameplay that has the internal politics and development of a country be a "garden" is more interesting than map-painting, but it's a pretty harsh garden. CK3 is fine portraying player characters as monstrous, but Vicky 3 doesn't take that direction. I'm not sure it could if it wanted too, with the games having major differences with regards to historical distance and POV of the player. Tropico actually faces a similar dilemma in subject matter, and settled on the tone of a farce.
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Oct 26, 2022 23:31
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I started a Belgium game at lunchtime, went to pause it to go for a pee & realised it was past 5pm. I used the fastresearch cheat to rush the left wing political techs and got rewarded by Karl Marx popping up as the head of my Trade Union faction, & he's Belgian now. So that's nice. I'm really unsure what I'm doing with colonial ventures but in theory at least I like that Africa isn't mostly empty this time.
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Oct 26, 2022 23:43
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Atrocious Joe posted:The weirder political issue for me is the "comfy" aesthetics of Vicky 3 combined with the reality of the period. I present you Paradox know the history, they're just not telling the player about it so they can continue living their a historical fantasy if they don't already know better.
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Oct 27, 2022 00:21
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It's not a coincidence that the guy who wrote Late Victorian Holocausts died the same day Victoria 3 came out.
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Oct 27, 2022 00:25
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Japan is really cool from the point of view of obsessively micromanaging an economy. Have to spread out everything you build or you'll overload the infrastructure in a region, you can't build too many things because you should be forcing everyone to use better tools instead. Oh and then you get hosed by a random earth quake or an eruption, or a tsunami or whatever.
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Oct 27, 2022 01:42
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the bitcoin of weed posted:haven't played this one yet but in vicky 2 this basically depended on the power structure of your country. monarchies and command economies were responsible for building their own industry but free market economies just depended on your own Capitalist poptype choosing to build things (presumably based on market forces), which costs you Monarch Number but you don't have much control over what dumb poo poo they build so you'd just get some maxed out railroads in an empty province Victoria 3 is much more like Victoria 1. Vicky 2's economy actually runs on an order of operations that functionally leaves it out of the players control. One of the steps is that all your country's goods get sold/bought in its own market first, before it can ever tap the global market. Yes, every country in Vicky 2 is a hardcoded autarky, and this is what morons think is the "free market".
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Oct 27, 2022 03:55
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Welp, lost the revolution against the shogun, better luck next time I guess.
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Oct 27, 2022 04:39
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Atrocious Joe posted:It's not a coincidence that the guy who wrote Late Victorian Holocausts died the same day Victoria 3 came out. What!? gently caress!
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Oct 27, 2022 05:18
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StashAugustine posted:From like 3 hours I'd say if you can wait probably do so, it's a good foundation but even without DLC it could use some balance and bugfix patches The Chad Jihad posted:It's looking good so far but personally I'd give it at LEAST a week unless you enjoy the new game collective experience; everyone is still figuring things out so who knows what weird holes and exploits will be found, and then whether those are things that could be reasonably patched or would need significant reworks or DLC to fix. I remember people being pretty happy with Imperator initially, until they started getting the full picture and seeing the edges of the game. this was good and accurate advice which I ignored because I have poor self control and bought the game anyway, 'could be great, but a big mess, literally nothing works properly' is my experience so far. I am enjoying myself though, so think it was still worth it. I don't really understand the rose-tinted glasses the Vic 2 superfans are seeing V2 through and why it causes them to hate V3. What version of V2 did they get with an economy that didn't have 1) tons of repetitive clicking to build stuff and 2) completely incomprehensible pricing systems and dysfunction?
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Oct 27, 2022 09:09
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:I don't really understand the rose-tinted glasses the Vic 2 superfans are seeing V2 through and why it causes them to hate V3. What version of V2 did they get with an economy that didn't have 1) tons of repetitive clicking to build stuff and 2) completely incomprehensible pricing systems and dysfunction? I don't think it's really rational - this happens every time a completely new incarnation of a game comes out, where modding has created a sense of "ownership" of a game.
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Oct 27, 2022 09:15
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I am so far finding it impossible to have enough iron & wood to get rid of the "government resources are expensive" notification. Am I meant to just cover Walloon with iron mines until and Flanders with lumber Mills until I run out of infrastructure?
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Oct 27, 2022 09:37
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I played a Prussia game but I've put it down now around 1865. I'm #1 in GDP, GDP/capita & prestige and I just beat Scandinavia + Russia to get Schleswig-Holstein so militarily I seem to be alright also. I got a couple colonies in Africa and Indonesia. I also feel like I am making very few decisions to have gotten here, which feels, well, really boring, actually. Most of the German states joined me voluntarily, but I still have no idea what causes this to trigger or what I can do to make it more likely. Bavaria seems to have aligned itself with Austria and even broke the Zollverein, which I didn't even notice until probably years after the fact. I build what was in hindsight probably way too much construction capacity, but on the other hand that just means I was building lots of factories quickly using deficit spending. The game started telling me this meant my economy was in bad shape, but actually it just meant I outpaced my neighbours hard. I was overpaying for construction materials for a long time though because I was carefully trying to balance things and build up here and there. Eventually I got tired of that and just built every single wood RGO my states would allow, and a shitton of extra mines and tool factories. That seemed to work, but I had a lot of radicals, probably due to high taxes? Anyway, it was solved by just building 300 farms and a couple dozen furniture and clothes factories, driving the prices of basic necessities way down. This also got rid of a lot of peasants, really kickstarting GDP. The Junkers remained happy when they were kicked out of government and replaced by Industrialists because I still had a lot of repressive laws. Those were then changed over time and by the time they cared enough to get upset their power was already broken anyways. The Clergy didn't raise any ruccus when I switched all the buildings they played a role in to secular modes of production, and a couple years later they were insignificant. Feels quite odd that this was just a couple button presses with seemingly no consequences. After I build those hundreds of RGOs I started to see how much work it was to micro building the factories, or well specifically, figure out which factory to build next. So I just put every single factory on automatic expansion. On top of that this seems to activate the investment pool? Anyway, from a multimillion deficit I went to a million in gold reserve now very quickly, so I slammed more construction capacity down. A couple time I had to kickstart new industries by manually building a 10 or 20 of them, like say when electricity was invented. Then just swich production methods and put it on automated. To be fair I've had electricity shortages for over a decade but everything still seems fine? If I could find the collective electricity demand and current max production capacity I wouldn't mind manually slamming the missing capacity but I can't find that anywhere so I'd have to manually add up all the different electricity requiring buildings' needs and that's too much effort for something which seems to work just fine anyhow. I payed little attention to what techs to research, and I get a bunch for free anyway. I have no idea how many universities I "should" be running. Speaking of changing production methods, it loving sucks that you have to go through the list every time you integrate another minor to fix all their outdated poo poo. Also means having buildings on different production types is a micro-intensive nightmare as then you can't use the building tab to just put everything to the same thing when doing this fixing. This full automation seems to have run into a limitation now where it has created so many clothes and furniture factories that I'm running out of labour force to run new industries, and railroads seem to be having issues hiring people, even though they are state owned and subsidized. Anyway, I guess the solution is to either demolish some factories, conquer more territory to increase population or keep making my laws friendlier, as with no migration controls and multicultural society people from all over the world appear to be flocking to me anyway. Oh also, Bismarck died after being around for like 2 years. And I think I got von Moltke killed mapping out the Congo river or whatever. Those event chains also feel like a waste of time tbh. Like if succesful I get prestige, but it's not clear to me what prestige does or why I should care. So long story short, I was carefully trying to tend things for the first 10 or so years, then just turned on all the automation I could find and only kickstarted new poo poo when it came up and now 30 years into the game I am #1 at everything. If I would replay and use a bit more micro plus the lessons learned I'm quite confident I could achieve the same result at least 5 years earlier, maybe 10. Also while the game tells me being in massive deficit (but under the limit) is bad, it actually means I just industrialize faster. Diplomatically I have no idea why things are happening or not happening. It honestly doesn't even feel like I played a game.
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Oct 27, 2022 09:38
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HoI4 took years to feel properly solid so i'm not surprised if Vicky will only be a proper complete experience by the end of 2023. It's not so much that the game is bad, it's just barebones. Vicky2 is an awful experience and anyone thinking it's superior are crazy. Absolutely awful influence system, awful war mechanics (try to mobilize as russia lol), awful colonization mechanics, barely any diplomatic options. Game as mediocre, but it was the only game we had.
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Oct 27, 2022 10:05
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Mans posted:HoI4 took years to feel properly solid so i'm not surprised if Vicky will only be a proper complete experience by the end of 2023. Yeah the experience of "making very few decisions" and "doesn't even feel like I even played a game" shows that this game is the true successor to Vicky 2
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Oct 27, 2022 10:28
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I guess another aspect of it is that anyone who's been playing Victoria 2 all this time knows it like the back of their hand, and having to learn something new can make someone uncomfortable I booted up Vic 2 again this afternoon, got to 1878 in about an hour as Brazil, 40.8% literacy, #21 overall; I was already a secondary power but then the loving liberals got into power and tanked the economy 
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Oct 27, 2022 10:34
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forkboy84 posted:I am so far finding it impossible to have enough iron & wood to get rid of the "government resources are expensive" notification. Am I meant to just cover Walloon with iron mines until and Flanders with lumber Mills until I run out of infrastructure? The notification is just a warning, if it isn't killing your economy you can ignore it. It's also possible that you have too many construction sectors for your economy, which means that you will spike the price of building supplies every time you build something. You can deal with that by scaling down. Building a lot of iron mines and lumber mills in the early game is normal anyways. Orange Devil posted:So long story short, I was carefully trying to tend things for the first 10 or so years, then just turned on all the automation I could find and only kickstarted new poo poo when it came up and now 30 years into the game I am #1 at everything. If I would replay and use a bit more micro plus the lessons learned I'm quite confident I could achieve the same result at least 5 years earlier, maybe 10. Also while the game tells me being in massive deficit (but under the limit) is bad, it actually means I just industrialize faster. Everybody's a genius when they play Prussia
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Oct 27, 2022 10:49
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forkboy84 posted:I am so far finding it impossible to have enough iron & wood to get rid of the "government resources are expensive" notification. Am I meant to just cover Walloon with iron mines until and Flanders with lumber Mills until I run out of infrastructure? Import any trade goods you want to lower the price of.
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Oct 27, 2022 11:27
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Importing goods might perfectly encapsulate what makes it feel like I'm not making any decisions. The game gives you a big important notification when an important good's price is unreasonably high. You can then click that and go to the good info, and one more click gets you to the trade window. Here the game will list all the possible import routes. You can sort by profitability. So then you click all the ones that are green. If, due to changing market circumstances, one of those trade routes ever goes in the red, the game gives you a notification you can click and then with one more click you cancel the trade route. The two other inputs to this process are having enough convoys and bureaucracy. If convoys insufficient, click on a port to increase its size and that'll solve itself in a few months. If bureaucracy insufficient, build a government admin building in a state and that'll solve itself in a few months. It's like, all of these things appear to have straightforward optimal solutions. The game actively points you at those solutions. All you then have to do is click the button. It's so close to being fully automated to just doing the things that make sense. None of it feels like making a decision. If you want to argue that maybe you want to spend your limited funds or construction capacity or whatever on something else rather than expanding ports/bureaucracy then ok maybe buuuut if the important goods you are importing are inputs to your construction industry that's just never an efficient course of action. And plenty of times you just have the convoy capacity and bureaucracy capacity laying around anyway. Edit: here's another thing that just feels weird. Like say your states can support 300 logging RGOs or whatever. At the start of the game you might have like 30 such RGOs. Without changing political makeup you can (and should) just start building like a 100 more of those RGOs. No political faction will object to this. Within a few years this likely will vastly change the internal shape of your country, as double digit % peasants will become labourers working for a landlord or capitalist or whatever. You don't need any tech for this and there is no political resistance to this. So why is it exactly that your country in 1836 has few RGOs, but in 1841 it's bustling with RGOs? Why didn't this process start in 1830? Or 1820? Or 1810? Other than that the start date in which the player gets to take control is set at 1836? Orange Devil has issued a correction as of 11:51 on Oct 27, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 11:42
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Don't play the easiest country in the game imo
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Oct 27, 2022 12:01
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Atrocious Joe posted:The weirder political issue for me is the "comfy" aesthetics of Vicky 3 combined with the reality of the period. I thought it was brilliant. Making it look like a Upper Middle Class English drawing room captures the experience of the people who benefitted from empire and read about it as distant events in the newspaper. Brits are still nostalgic for it, aesthetic and all.
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Oct 27, 2022 12:57
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Slim Jim Pickens posted:Everybody's a genius when they play Prussia
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Oct 27, 2022 13:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:
Each step up in production method requires a new good, which requires you to trade for it, which requires Bureaucracy points, which require expanded government buildings, which cost a lot of money. edit: holy poo poo a trade agreement eliminates the bureaucracy cost of trade routes with that country. that's huge. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 has issued a correction as of 14:36 on Oct 27, 2022 |
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Oct 27, 2022 13:43
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Atrocious Joe posted:Controlling the day-to-day movements of armies on the opposites ends of Europe in 1200 is proper gameplay Subutai did it, from a cart!
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Oct 27, 2022 15:31
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Each step up in production method requires a new good, which requires you to trade for it, which requires Bureaucracy points, which require expanded government buildings, which cost a lot of money. Yes, and it removes all tariffs too. Be aware that it encourages the other countries to create their own trade routes with you, which can lead to complications if you make trade agreements with large, hungry countries.
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Oct 27, 2022 19:00
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How do I attract foreign immigrants? I managed to get my standard of living high enough that my migration thing is in the green but every time I checked its always internal migration.
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Oct 27, 2022 20:19
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 The world at the end of (the war at the end of) an era. Mistakes: Many. - Early dev whether or not the Shogun approves gets Japan off on an extremely strong midgame footing, but the Shogun never forcefully disapproves, just lets you work yourself into a soft failstate where they'll stomp out of government, preventing you from either passing reforms that further disempower them or pissing off the growing industrialist and samurai interests enough to kick off a historical Meiji Restoration. Around 40 years midgame were spent just cycling RGO/factory dev and waiting for the politics timer. - I never really managed to deal with the peasant economy or severe research constraints as a whole due to this; SoL is passable just due to PM changes keeping everyone fed but eh. - Around another 20 years was spent focused on bullying what was left of the US. Bullying for territory is extremely suboptimal even if it's good territory; you get one state unless you can bait them into actual war and still get your five-year truce timer and huge bad boy points (I think my BEST foreign relation, barring an incongruous protectorate in Parma I took on a lark as my wargoal in a Cut Down To Size play from the Two Sicilies and then they collapsed, is -1500.) - Because of the research constraints only allowing for one military path, and how fatal being behind in land tech is if you can't swarm, my navy's loving dire and my economy did tank hard when I attracted convoy raiding while waiting these out. - I didn't think to start spam-coring after going multiculturalism/separation of church and state, so this also meant regular rebellions to clean up after the main war. Successes: - Every other major except the Qing was buried by near-continuous civil conflict, so while I'm nominally the fourth GP--in a dead heat with the UK for 3rd--if I wanted to map paint I have a clear path through just continuing to shred Russia and Qing. - Cut Down to Size seems to just not work if you don't share a land border; everyone but Russia, I didn't even seriously mobilize, just was able to wait them out and WPed. - If you don't have major unprofitable sectors to subsidize, and starting from enforced autarkhy encourages this, forcing through Council Republic rapidly gets you to a 100% legitimacy 100% voteshare national unity government dominated by the unions. Systems  s:- Autocrats who leave government rather than kicking off a civil war, but still have autocratic legitimacy. - I don't mind the war system per se, but: -- Lots of the fate of all Kamchatka resting on 2000 dudes from two 400k armies meeting in some forest for the scheduled battle that month. But the AI definitely doesn't care about whatever limited supply system there is, and will flood their 400k in to pingpong a more reasonably sized force to death. -- Fronts get extremely weird around impassable/seas. Holding Okhotsk but not Kamchatka or Transbaikal, you cannot march east as it's considered part of the Transbaikal front; conversely, if fighting in Hokkaido the front gets split sometimes into west and east of Asahikawa, and woe unto you if your general gets reassigned to the east and needs to do a full redeploy to hold a thrust coming toward/through Sapporo. - And you will be fighting in Hokkaido if you're Japan, as you can't actually colonize it until after your reform process kicks in and the Euros will snag it and Sakhalin first. But you get a reclaim state claim on Sakhalin? But not northern Hokkaido? - Apparently can't garrison unruly islands against separatism; you get booted out and have to land again. - If you're naughty, everyone will want to cut you down to size. Even people on the other side of the world with no navy. - Conceding a Cut Down to Size war definitely isn't just returning all conquests within the prior 10 years like the tooltip says. Might be conquests from targets who you've conquered from in the prior 10 years, or past 10 years plus uncored, but I'd been keeping my plate spinning and lost literally everything when I tried it. - AI doesn't dev unusual resources well at all; if you want there to be oil or opium or even rubber in the world you basically have to conquer somewhere that has it and dev it up yourself. Opium kind of stands out because unless you start extremely early you have to be able to take either the British or the Qing. For my next run, I'm going to manually disassemble the US and then try and take one state up.
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Oct 27, 2022 20:25
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