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I think a better solution would be to not have models that are unplayable trash. This also kills escalation leagues which I know first hand are a great way to get new people into the game. I know very few people who got into wargames by spending $200 on models up front. $200 including paints and tools, sure, but not models alone.
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Oct 28, 2022 14:25
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FrostyPox posted:I think a better solution would be to not have models that are unplayable trash. These days $200 is pretty much the default entry point. Ask the experts: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Warhammer-40000-Command-Edition-EN-2020 https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Age-Of-Sigmar-Extremis-English-2021 That's not to say there isn't a huge difference. The key is what people get for their $200. And I don't mean what's in the box. When someone drops $200 for 40k or AoS, no matter where they are, they're buying entry into an active community where they can meet other people who play it and have games. With Warmachine, the game has survived only in scattered areas. In the dead areas, I guess PP is hoping that people will $200 in the belief that a bunch of others will also drop $200 and then the community will revive? Even for areas where the game has survived, buyers have to wonder how many people will be dropping the game because their armies have been axed for now. And that's before touching the bang up job PP is doing with the launch itself. So GW can get away with that kind of an entry price point, but PP should know their sales are basically only going to be to confident buyers in areas where the game survived. When they need new players. And of course, GW doesn't "get away with it". Having actually thought about what it takes to get people into the hobby, they have three versions of the starter sets. They all have insane "in the box" value compared to their other boxes. And the most basic entry point is $60. For current Warmachine players, it's tough to look at that, and understand this is something Privateer Press used to know. They used to absolutely crush it with the battlegroup boxes. And then: !Klams posted:It feels like they see it as, you're only really playing 'properly' once you have the full army, (or, whatever they're calling them? Themes anyway) and that's how they're balancing everything, and that's what they're envisioning. Like you're not really playing until you have the, admittedly smaller now, full number of models for your theme list. rydiafan posted:I spoke to a PP rep at GenCon and this is 100% it. To exaggerate and simplify his point slightly, the old starters were a bait and switch. Fwiw, there was a post yesterday which quickly got deleted which suggested they're doing a Gencon battlegroup box equivalent for some upcoming convention for the Dusk army (aka Retribution). It may be they've just decided they're going to FOMO the standard entry point into the hobby.
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Oct 28, 2022 20:37
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That's still a $200 2 player starter set, which is not what PP is selling right? They're selling a $200 single person set. That makes the PP press twice as expensive to enter as the industry leader. And for a pretty significantly inferior product, model quality wise.
counterspin fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 20:57
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counterspin posted:That's still a $200 2 player starter set, which is not what PP is selling right? They're selling a $200 single person set. That makes the PP press twice as expensive to enter as the industry leader. And for a pretty significantly inferior product, model quality wise. The GW set contains everything you need to get started, including terrain and a game board.
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Oct 28, 2022 21:10
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On, for "two players instead of one" I'd say having a single army in the box is a win. And for terrain, Privateer Press provides terrain for free* in the free rulebook. *cost of printing not included. I was trying, unsuccessfully apparently, to establish a point on price for entry divorced from the box contents. On value for dollar in the box, well, these new box sets are really awful compared to what GW provides. PP is never going to overcome that. Which PP should be taking into account. The Mk 4. app is apparently now up in the Apple store. Android store still waiting.
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Oct 28, 2022 22:01
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The GW set is also not even remotely close to a full size actual army, and they aren't the full retail versions of those kits with options. It's a better deal in the context of GW prices, but not in the context of how much it costs to finish putting an army together compared to most other miniature games. Infinity is miles ahead of either of those two
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Oct 28, 2022 22:04
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I'd also point out that GW gives the option that, while more expensive in the long run, is a bit more approachable for newbies. I can buy a box of Space Marines this week, build them and paint them at my leisure, then a couple weeks later buy the HQ, etc etc. This absolutely will cost more in the long run. It is also how a lot of people I know have built their armies because paying $225 over a couple months is more palatable for many people than $150 up front for the same models (Numbers pulled out of my rear end but seem roughly proportional to Combat Patrols). I keep harping on it, but it doesn't matter how good a deal the $200 set is. New players will absolutely walk away at that price point, doubly so because Warmachine has a stagnated, dare I say, dying community whereas 40K and Age of Sigmar are huge, comparatively. FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 22:21
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Wait, do you guys think there will literally be nothing on the shelf in the future except for 200 dollar boxes? And no other options? Or am I just misunderstanding your post?
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Oct 28, 2022 22:49
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S.J. posted:Wait, do you guys think there will literally be nothing on the shelf in the future except for 200 dollar boxes? And no other options? Or am I just misunderstanding your post? I'm more questioning if they'll release cheaper entry-level options before they crash and burn
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Oct 28, 2022 23:03
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Have they announced anything but the $200 boxes for the launch? Because launch is an absolutely crucial time in a game's life cycle. There's nothing that can be made six months later that will resurrect a Dead on Arrival system. This is when the hype is.
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Oct 28, 2022 23:07
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moths posted:Have they announced anything but the $200 boxes for the launch? Because launch is an absolutely crucial time in a game's life cycle. This. This is the issue. I think there's a second Warcaster, a Warjack kit, and a Solo to be released for each faction outside of the $200 set, but no Infantry units. I do not know if that's going to be enough to help. There also will only be four armies with their very limited selections available for like the first half? 3/4s? of 2023. Edit: Here's their original release graphic:  So 6 months with only three factions, and a warcaster, a couple of warjacks, and a solo available outside the super-expensive starter and expansion sets. FrostyPox fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 23:10
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 I'm the dumbass still subscribed to Minicrate, and apparently they're having a flashback sale, where PP is selling what's left of their limited edition sculpts next Friday. They must be hard up. I'm hopefully going to get the damned model I signed up for but missed because I entered my information wrong 
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Oct 29, 2022 00:04
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I know what the release graphic looks like, I just have no idea why anyone would expect non starter boxes to show up on that timeline. I mean I don't remember them saying about it one way or another but still.
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Oct 29, 2022 00:35
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Yes, they're selling things other than the army boxes. The 'jacks and secondary/tertiary casters, and an assortment of Mercs are available. The total price is something like $110. And there will be units available to. But I don't know about plans to sell the army box units or caster separately.
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Oct 29, 2022 00:43
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I actually legit do think having a warcaster and jack available separately will help, but I don't think it'll be enough to avert disaster. Honestly I'd love to be wrong about this, I overall like PP's games and would rather see them get it together than fold.
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Oct 29, 2022 02:31
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Still no android app.
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Oct 29, 2022 11:48
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rydiafan posted:I would know whether playtesters got free models. I am 100% certain I know more about the details of the playtest than you do. You were saying? https://imgur.com/a/PyEsnN3 https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...1lGSDBoSHMwZjVR zerofiend fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Oct 30, 2022 |
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Oct 30, 2022 04:18
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Take it to PMs. Still no Android app.
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Oct 30, 2022 04:43
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What the gently caress is your damage dude
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Oct 30, 2022 11:04
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Android app is up
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Oct 30, 2022 17:47
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No Cephalyx yet 
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Oct 30, 2022 18:15
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The Android App is up. It looks way better than what I was expecting. It's encouraging, even, despite missing features. The stats need a lot of revision. Lots of models listed as have 1 Def or Arm or having a 12 Arc stat despite not having spells. Which is to say, appropriate stuff for a Beta. In terms of balance, tough to say right now. There's a lot of changes and most of them intended to tune down things they decided were overpowered. But there are also signs they're ready to leave the legacy factions behind. On the spell slot issue, it does look like they're leaving old casters out on this ability completely. It's not at all obvious from the cards themselves, but if you put a caster into a force, you can then assign spells to it if it has a rack. So, new casters get racks. I can't find any examples of old casters getting racks.
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Oct 30, 2022 18:27
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smug jeebus posted:No Cephalyx yet Don't worry, they'll be in there... before the end of 2023 
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Oct 30, 2022 18:30
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Maneck posted:Take it to PMs. No, let's not be silly there. If someone's going to be all Billy big dick claiming to be an authority and shutting down criticism by making these claims, it's relevant to the ongoing discussion about the company if they're wrong. And if these are legit and he's right because of some other reason, that's also of some interest.
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Oct 30, 2022 18:36
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I'm still not seeing the android ap? E; nvm found it
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Oct 31, 2022 01:18
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I found it on my phone and yet can't seem to find it on my tablet. They've got a problem with the app name. Edit: Looks like the app only supports more recent versions of Android. May not work on my tablet. Maneck fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Oct 31, 2022 |
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Oct 31, 2022 02:25
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After a day, I am very confused about what they're trying to do with rules for Legacy armies in Mk. 4 Prime. It's very hard to tell the difference between errors and intentional changes right now. The general impression is that they rolled back most of the massive balance change made to Mk. 3 in October of 2021. But it's not consistent and the net result is confusing. I'll use that as an example which has me worried. The Carnivean had a spray and the assault rule. It was pretty great on a heavy!. Charge in, fire of a spray to soften the target up, then get on with your charge attacks. In Mk. 4, sprays have been nerfed. They're not nearly as good. So the Carnivean was already worse. Then they took Chain Attack off of his card (which had been added in Oct. 2021) and put his price back up (which had been reduced in Oct. 2021). But then "Assault" is now missing from the card. Is that on purpose? Or does someone there really hate the Legion warbeasts? Assault is missing from its card too, and it went up in price, and it was already one of the most useless models in the game. No change log means no way to know for a little while.
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Oct 31, 2022 21:16
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Warbeasts don't need assault because they always get to make all of their ranged and melee attacks from dual attack. That rule seems to be for troopers and solos now. The weapon itself has the pistol quality so you can target anyone in melee with you at no penalty to hit for being in melee. Technically that might be a buff based on what model positioning ends up looking like on the table. The only real nerf I see here, points notwithstanding, is that sprays don't hit as much stuff now. Was spiny growth 1 or 2 cost in mk3? I don't remember E: sorry forgot about chain attack, who knows there Ee: The Ironclads melee fist is now POW 18 lol S.J. fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Oct 31, 2022 |
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Oct 31, 2022 21:37
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It probably wouldn't be a huge surprise if Legacy armies don't end up with the most competitive rules. It would be a bit of a thing if one of the better tournament armies was based around models that are next to impossible to acquire anymore.
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Nov 1, 2022 00:00
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Thirsty Dog posted:No, let's not be silly there. If someone's going to be all Billy big dick claiming to be an authority and shutting down criticism by making these claims, it's relevant to the ongoing discussion about the company if they're wrong. If Richie got models it was a special gift for being a community pillar, along the same lines as Dark Legacy getting models to assemble on his stream. Playtesters did not, as a universal rule, get models. I'm not trying to "be all Billy big dick", as you put it. There's been a fuckload of misinformation since the Mk4 announcement, and I'm trying to fight its spread by sharing (quite frankly more than I am supposed to) what actual information I have access to. And I'm absolutely not trying to shut down criticism, just trying to make sure we criticize accurately the things that legitimately need it.
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Nov 1, 2022 01:09
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S.J. posted:Warbeasts don't need assault because they always get to make all of their ranged and melee attacks from dual attack. That rule seems to be for troopers and solos now. The weapon itself has the pistol quality so you can target anyone in melee with you at no penalty to hit for being in melee. Technically that might be a buff based on what model positioning ends up looking like on the table. The pistol thing was added today I think. Thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense.
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Nov 1, 2022 02:53
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Maneck posted:The pistol thing was added today I think. Thanks for explaining that, it makes more sense. It's easy to miss some of this stuff that got turned into icons, I have to constantly remind myself tbh
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Nov 1, 2022 02:54
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rydiafan posted:If Richie got models it was a special gift for being a community pillar, along the same lines as Dark Legacy getting models to assemble on his stream. Playtesters did not, as a universal rule, get models. The letter in the screenshot literally says "without you and your playtesters" so I think we're arguing semantics at best here. It would appear that "Richie" is a playtester. And he got sent models as a thank-you. It's reported that other playtesters received something similar and also posted photos. Something you said was a blatant lie and that you'd know for certain if it had happened. And yeah, it is "all Billy big dick" to say "you obviously don't know who I am" in that argument! So, as someone who is genuinely interested in the truth of the matter and would like to know what the hell is happening to a company I used to have a lot of time for: who are you, and why would you know without any chance you might be wrong that these playtesters could not have been sent models by PP?
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Nov 2, 2022 00:16
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Thirsty Dog posted:And yeah, it is "all Billy big dick" to say "you obviously don't know who I am" in that argument! No, it isn't. It was a statement of fact that if somebody tells me I'm "full of poo poo" about what's happening with PP they must not know who I am. I was a PG, Judge, and Infernal. I ran PP's official tournaments at GenCon, Adepticon, and WMW. I have been a playtester for every steamroller and edition change for the last decade. I personally designed multiple scenarios. I was handpicked by DC as his replacement for lead designer when he left, but turned them down because my family situation prevented moving to Washington. Again, none of this is to brag. It's to state the fact that I know more about the inner workings of PP than any non-employee on the planet. And I certainly know more about the inner workings of the Mk4 playtest than somebody going off secondhand information. Playtesters did not receive models as a standard practice. If Richie got models it was an exception. As I stated before, a couple key people got models, such as Dark Legacy, and apparently Richie was one of those people. So yes, I was wrong when I assumed Richie didn't get models, but my stated reason for that belief was 100% accurate. rydiafan fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 01:01
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rydiafan posted:It's to state the fact that I know more about the inner workings of PP than any non-employee on the planet. Except Richie, apparently.
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Nov 2, 2022 01:18
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I guarantee he doesn't know poo poo anymore. Edit: Anyway, can we move along? This thread isn't about me and I only posted that poo poo because Thirsty Dog specifically asked who I was. Is anyone going to Warfaire Weekend? rydiafan fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Nov 2, 2022 |
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Nov 2, 2022 01:26
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Lol, agreed. I think MkIV has been really hurt by the lack of transparency. I can't access the "official story" on FB because I commented on the uncured resin photos, but the second hand versions I get have it changing frequently. The timeline is a joke, nobody knows what figures are available, or will be available, or are squatted, and it's November so the game is already launched? And this is all the playtesters' fault, just like Mk3. It's all very shitshow.
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Nov 2, 2022 01:33
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The model stats present for the big app release were riddled with obvious errors. Not "this is a weird balance choice but maybe it'll work out" stuff, but full on missing stats, missing rules, rules that canceled out other rules on the model. Oh, and don't forget typos ("knofe")/ It was pretty clear that PP didn't run a proofreader over anything, let along try to do any internal playtesting that would have pointed out the issues the minute someone tried to use the models on a table. So yeah, shitshow.
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Nov 2, 2022 01:44
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They've screwed lots of stuff up so no need to ding them for things they didn't actually get wrong. This is, and was always going to be, the beta testing period. The app is explicitly in beta. Competitive play was explicitly not starting before January. The model releases, well that's nothing but egg on their face. There were supposed to have three of the new armies at this point. It'll be a pleasant surprise if we have more than one by the end of January.
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Nov 2, 2022 02:46
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This is supposed to be a beta test, but it's in a shameful state that maybe PP doesn't realize there were other tests before something's ready for beta.
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Nov 2, 2022 03:01
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