[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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Janitor Ludwich IV: Jan 25, 2019; by vyelkin

The post war cost me $30 and as soon as I come back from my posting war related injuries was to see that it was over and neither side won.. what a let down thanks Jeffrey

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:05

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# ? May 20, 2024 15:43

HiroProtagonist: May 7, 2007

Frosted Flake posted:

You know, it hadn�t occurred to me but the conversation in another thread sparked my interest about what I�m going to term Triple Genocide Theory, that German policies in East Africa prefigured the Holocaust. This was in vogue in the 90�s when books came out about Hermann Goering�s father, for example.

The scholarship now, which I guess is the second generation of post-colonial studies, paints a very different picture. Crucially, and this is what I want to draw attention to, it shows that the Germans were not all-powerful colonial overlords and instead came into a situation without much control, much administrative capability, unfolding chaos, and a food supply problem there was no easy solution to. What they did in reaction to that was reprehensible and often criminal, but they didn�t create the situation because they weren�t omniscient and omnipotent.

To be clear - there were widespread famines in German East Africa, German policies often made it worse, and some policies targeted specific groups, or at least, did not extend relief to them.

The difference between the Soviet Archives being opened and not is knowing how much (or indeed how little) information the Soviets had, and how much ability to act. It�s led to reappraisals across whole fields and disciplines, for example the realization the Stalinism presented a sort of executive control that did not actually exist in the bureaucratized USSR, but the popular memory endures. People believed that the Soviets were a towering Totalitarian�️ state, but of course we know now that they were wary of mass politics, the committees and Party handled nearly all of the functions of state, the bureaucracy often did not have the kind of perfect information and total control that it appeared to and so on.

None of this would be apparent to people suffering under it, or writers afterwards. In the case of German East Africa, Prussian Efficiency and Bureaucracy are such strong stereotypes in the English speaking world that there�s been resistance to the idea that they could have possibly been in a situation where they didn�t have much authority, regions and people within their formal borders were outside their control, they were unable to remedy the food supply situation, etc. We think of an all-powerful German state, an all-powerful Soviet state, and so assume all events that transpire within it are under their total control, that they have total information, can act totally, and so in both cases the often very dry and boring records that bear out administrators trying to cope with a situation - and again, often acting reprehensibly - that�s ignored because it doesn�t fit with the English speaking world�s idea of their state power.

i like this nuance from you, its really well written. i don't know how much you were gisting but it reads real well

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:07

Buffer: May 6, 2007; I sometimes turn down sex and blowjobs from my girlfriend because I'm too busy posting in D&D. PS: She used my credit card to pay for this.

I feel like I read about blowback and blowback related things in a lot of different places - and also like there's enough there to talk about forever - has anyone collected it - like Legacy of Ashes, the CSPAM thread?

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:08

speng31b: May 8, 2010

AnimeIsTrash posted:

posting about the 🇺🇦 war in a comedy ↕️. putin is wide hahahaa 👩‍👩‍👦‍👦 even set it to a "dub soundtrack 👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 💩 go౦ԁ poo poo👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌poo poo right👌👌there👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if do ƽaү 🆘 my self 💯 say 🆘 💯 thats 😦 im about there there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mmmmmꮇм💯 👌👌 👌нo0оଠoooooоଠଠooooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌good 💩
tthere is not a 🇸🇮 poster 🔛 the ⬅️ page worth a 🇸🇮 💩. this is the most pathetic 💻 of attempted shitposting i've seen in my life. 👉 all stinking loving nerds posing as jaded policy analysts and your pretend jokes make me god drat

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

majorian come on now. behave. ** waggles finger putinishly **

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:08

Pretzel Rod Serling: Aug 6, 2008

Majorian posted:

Azov, absolutely. gently caress those Nazis.

what about Aidar, Tornado, Kraken, C14, Sich�

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:09

biceps crimes: Apr 12, 2008

Janitor Ludwich IV posted:

The post war cost me $30 and as soon as I come back from my posting war related injuries was to see that it was over and neither side won.. what a let down thanks Jeffrey

war is hell

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:09

Corky Romanovsky: Oct 1, 2006; Soiled Meat

is it really surprising that anti-war (and other) voices not found in the mainstream often have some skeleton that can be used to exclude any argument or on-the-ground reporting that they do

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:09

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Pretzel Rod Stewart posted:

what about Aidar, Tornado, Kraken, C14, Sich�

I only know about Kraken, but sure, if they're avowedly Nazis or use lots of Nazi propaganda and are white nationalists and all that poo poo.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:10

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Amethyst posted:

posting about the ukraine war in a comedy way. putin is wide walking hahahaa they even set it to a "dub step" soundtrack 👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀👌👀 good poo poo go౦ԁ poo poo👌 thats ✔ some good👌👌poo poo right👌👌there👌👌👌 right✔there ✔✔if i do ƽaү so my self 💯 i say so 💯 thats what im talking about right there right there (chorus: ʳᶦᵍʰᵗ ᵗʰᵉʳᵉ) mMMMMᎷМ💯 👌👌 👌НO0ОଠOOOOOОଠଠOoooᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒᵒ👌 👌👌 👌 💯 👌 👀 👀 👀 👌👌Good poo poo

tthere is not a single poster on the previous page worth a single poo poo. this is the most pathetic display of attempted shitposting i've seen in my life. you are all stinking loving nerds posing as jaded policy analysts and your pretend jokes make me god drat sick!!!!!!!!!!

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

majorian you gotta stomp the people explicitly threadshitting harder. if they're jumping in now while the current status quo has the backing from admins and el jeffe, it's only going to get worse when management isn't so focused on this thread

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:10

sum: Nov 15, 2010

Ukrainian command seems a lot less optimistic about taking Kherson than Twitter. Also bonus accusation that Russia soldiers are dressing up as civilians to make Ukraine look bad when they kill them. I really should make a list of all the insane things the Ukrainian side has said were false flags.

Резидент posted:

The Russians are simulating a retreat from the right bank of the Kherson region in order to mislead the Ukrainian command.

This opinion was expressed by the head of the press center of the Defense Forces "South" Natalia Gumenyuk during the telethon.

"Despite the fact that the enemy declares the abandonment of settlements in the Kherson region and the total evacuation, we are monitoring the situation and realize that these may be certain tricks and military maneuvers in order to create a properly built defense for ourselves. These are certain provocations for in order to create the impression that the settlements are abandoned, that they are safe. But given that they were preparing for street battles, we are aware of the planned tactics of action.Do not rush to rejoice, we must understand that a hybrid war also involves such information stuffing, attack," she said.

According to her, regular units remain in Kherson, which are disguised as civilians. They continue to settle not only in the regional center, but also in other settlements in the homes of people who have left. The Russians are doing this to create a picture that supposedly the Ukrainian Armed Forces are opening fire on civilians.

"They also want to create a picture that the Armed Forces of Ukraine, having entered the settlement, began the execution of the civilian population. This is for public and propaganda channels. But we are ready for these provocations," the spokeswoman said.

In addition, the Russians completely blocked traffic across the Dnieper River. This may indicate that they are trying to use the crossings solely for their own purposes.

"There is a continuation of hostilities. We keep fire control. In particular, the crossing of the Antonovsky bridge cannot be used due to significant damage," she added.

Gumenyuk said that the Russians are preparing for the defense of the Kherson region: they are trying to mine the approaches, equipping trenches and reinforced concrete structures.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/14934

_{(from t.me/rezident_ua/14935, via tgsa)}

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:11

Good Soldier Svejk: Jul 5, 2010

Corky Romanovsky posted:

is it really surprising that anti-war (and other) voices not found in the mainstream often have some skeleton that can be used to exclude any argument or on-the-ground reporting that they do

we still talking the gold-standard guy with the hunter biden retweet as his top post right now?

Like maybe he's somehow breaking the biggest story of the year but someone else who isn't bonkers will probably be able to verify it

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:11

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Frosted Flake posted:

lol I feel like I�m taking crazy pills but we know the UK trained Ukrainian sabotage and mine clearance divers, including on remote vehicles, they trained Ukrainian naval commandos, there were leaks alleging Brit consultants were intimately involved in planning the Crimea bridge which was intended to involve remote vehicles, we know they provided Ukraine with several of them.

The circumstantial evidence is there in dozens of articles about mine clearance, or training programs, or technical assistance, but then Germany would doubtlessly know that too.

Ah but clearly Russia said they used those remote vehicles for the Sevastopol attack via the grain corridor instead, checkmate.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:12

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

The first paragraph is right but I think the second is pretty naive. Ukraine is very unlikely to be in the same position as other Russian federation states - at the risk of starting a 'Russia is/is not imperialist' shitfight I see no way Ukrainians would be treated the same, the war and bloodlust has likely killed many feelings of Russia-Ukraine brotherhood in Russia as well, and the country would need to be heavily policed as a part of Russia.

Also the USA would not take this lying down and do everything it could to make life miserable in Ukraine specifically as a part of Russia. You could say 'well that's the USA's fault and they shouldn't do it', but it's not that much more convincing than saying 'if Putin hadn't invaded none of this would have happened so every bad outcome is his fault'

This is true, though sentiment is something that could at least plausibly improve with time.

Neither of these options are good. It's just that the former seems like an absolute guarantee of things indefinitely getting worse. Ukraine also seems more likely to violently punish collaborators (perceived or otherwise), since it (or at least its ruling factions) have a long history of hate towards Russians (within or outside of its borders). The anti-Ukraine sentiment from the war doesn't have the same history to allow it to endure indefinitely beyond the war's end.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:12

speng31b: May 8, 2010

crepeface posted:

majorian you gotta stomp the people explicitly threadshitting harder. if they're jumping in now while the current status quo has the backing from admins and el jeffe, it's only going to get worse when management isn't so focused on this thread

amethyst was right. goddamn tankies worst enemy is a mirror

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:12

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

crepeface posted:

majorian you gotta stomp the people explicitly threadshitting harder. if they're jumping in now while the current status quo has the backing from admins and el jeffe, it's only going to get worse when management isn't so focused on this thread

I kinda want to see them melt down some more. :shrug:

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:12

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

Majorian posted:

Yeah that's kind of my feeling on it as well. I don't think speculating about it is "pro-Russian" in any meaningful sense, but at this point it's basically an angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin thought experiment. Ukraine's getting hosed by oligarchs from one direction or another (or likely both) no matter what.

I do like the diagram, though - I'll put it in the pics post!

Yeah, I don't think that's necessarily a "pro-Russia" opinion but it's also kind of a worthless debate.

Like, in the election next week, I can vote for a new sheriff. The new sheriff doesn't like the old sheriff and is running because he hates how the old sheriff runs things. The old sheriff regularly abuses folks in lockup and has cost the county quite a bit in settlements over the years. The new sheriff promises to clean up how things are done and run an efficient and orderly jail. He has also promised to continue cooperating with ICE and their "debate" was a little bit about corruption and a lot about who is tougher on crime.

Will things be better under the new sheriff? Yeah, probably. If I get drunk and get hauled off to lockup for starting poo poo, it'd be better under the new sheriff than the old sheriff. Doesn't mean the new sheriff is good, or that I have to vote for him or tell people that the new sheriff is better.

Sometimes every option stinks and we don't need to argue about which bad smell is more tolerable.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:13

Dixon Chisholm: Jan 2, 2020

HallelujahLee posted:

it really is all just iraq again, remember when this all started and all the places started renaming anything russian and all other insane dumbass hysteria

Freedom dressing

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:13

Wheeee: Mar 11, 2001; When a tree grows, it is soft and pliable. But when it's dry and hard, it dies.

Hardness and strength are death's companions. Flexibility and softness are the embodiment of life.

That which has become hard shall not triumph.

HashtagGirlboss posted:

Welcome back thread. You�re not wrong about that QCS thread. It goes places. I�m not sure how much longer spaces that look at the war in a nuanced skeptical way are going to last on any English language platform, that�s hardly SA specific. There�s a certain dogged moral certainty that has overtaken pretty much everyone. It�s almost been remarkable to watch it develop in real time

I really don�t think it helps at all that most of the higher profile voices in opposition to US involvement have been MAGA types

The CPC letter and the push to deplatform BJG are other examples. It�s wild out there

we're just getting started baby just wait until the tensions with china really begin ramping up while the social and economic orders of the west hit the point in their ongoing collapse that even the dumbest and most comfortable people begin to feel it

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:13

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

You can "stan for Putler", yes. You can also drive over the speed limit. Both are legally questionable. I do not presume to know your morals, nor do I presume to care.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:14

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Cyberspec News posted:

_{(Click thumbnail to open video)}
Video on T-90M and T-72B3M production & upgrade in UVZ. They say production has increased and modifications implemented based on feedback from the frontline

_{(from t.me/CyberspecNews/11970, via tgsa)}

new tank content for the tankies of cspam

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:16

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

sum posted:

Ukrainian command seems a lot less optimistic about taking Kherson than Twitter. Also bonus accusation that Russia soldiers are dressing up as civilians to make Ukraine look bad when they kill them. I really should make a list of all the insane things the Ukrainian side has said were false flags.

_{(from t.me/rezident_ua/14935, via tgsa)}

That account been posting stuff like that every other day? It really doesn't mean anything anymore. While the pro Russian posters are constantly jumping at shadows and thinking everything is a sign of weakness or betrayal.

Edit like

Резидент posted:

The information of the British Intelligence Service is confirmed by the Head of the State Security Department of the Ministry of Defense Budanov, who states that the Russian Federation is not planning to leave Kherson, but is working to strengthen the defense of the city.

In many aspects it is an information operation and manipulation.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/14730

_{(from t.me/rezident_ua/14802, via tgsa)}

From like a week and a half ago.

Lostconfused has issued a correction as of 01:19 on Nov 4, 2022

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:16

Calibanibal: Aug 25, 2015

crepeface posted:

majorian you gotta stomp the people explicitly threadshitting harder. if they're jumping in now while the current status quo has the backing from admins and el jeffe, it's only going to get worse when management isn't so focused on this thread

To be clear - Amethyst isn't a traveler from any of our dearly beloved sister threads, they're just a random cool cat

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:16

speng31b: May 8, 2010

Dirty bomb? Nope

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/3/un-inspectors-find-no-sign-of-dirty-bomb-in-ukraine

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:17

FallenGod: May 23, 2002; Unite, Afro Warriors!

this thread is dedicated to the brave Azov fighters of Ukraine

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:17

Corky Romanovsky: Oct 1, 2006; Soiled Meat

Good Soldier Svejk posted:

we still talking the gold-standard guy with the hunter biden retweet as his top post right now?

Like maybe he's somehow breaking the biggest story of the year but someone else who isn't bonkers will probably be able to verify it

watching the ever shrinking media landscape, BJG getting threats, etc.: guess I will be grilling until some true and pure investigative journalist manifests from the æther

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:17

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

speng31b posted:

Dirty bomb? Nope

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/3/un-inspectors-find-no-sign-of-dirty-bomb-in-ukraine

No evidence of a dirty bomb? poo poo, now the US is going to have to invade out of a sense of nostalgia.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:19

Dixon Chisholm: Jan 2, 2020

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

at the risk of starting a 'Russia is/is not imperialist' shitfight

There's nothing to fight about. Admin position is that Russia is imperialist.

Azathoth posted:

If you legit hope Russia, itself an imperialist power,

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:19

Calibanibal: Aug 25, 2015

the evidence was swept under the rug

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:19

crepeface: Nov 5, 2004; r*p*f*c*

Wheeee posted:

we're just getting started baby just wait until the tensions with china really begin ramping up while the social and economic orders of the west hit the point in their ongoing collapse that even the dumbest and most comfortable people begin to feel it

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:20

HallelujahLee: May 3, 2009

Dixon Chisholm posted:

Freedom dressing

with some freedom fries

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:20

speng31b: May 8, 2010

Corky Romanovsky posted:

watching the ever shrinking media landscape, BJG getting threats, etc.: guess I will be grilling until some true and pure investigative journalist manifests from the æther

you're going to be waiting awhile. long enough for the consequences of funneling endless weapons into a conflict to emerge, and liberals to reconstruct the reality around their current pro war opinions to pretend they were very concerned about it the whole time

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:21

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Danann posted:

_{(from t.me/milinfolive/92869, via tgsa)}

bespoke belarussian log, tire, and bag armor additions

logs are for getting out of mud

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:21

ikanreed: Sep 25, 2009; I honestly I have no idea who cannibal[SIC] is and I do not know why I should know.

syq dude, just syq!

speng31b posted:

Dirty bomb? Nope

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/3/un-inspectors-find-no-sign-of-dirty-bomb-in-ukraine

Wow, a weapon with no strategic value to winning the war, but also being a huge nuclear escalation wasn't used?

That's crazy, makes no sense.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:21

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Danann posted:

_{(from t.me/CyberspecNews/11970, via tgsa)}

new tank content for the tankies of cspam

I wonder if they are ever going to get a new transmission.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:21

speng31b: May 8, 2010

ikanreed posted:

Wow, a weapon with no strategic value to winning the war, but also being a huge nuclear escalation wasn't used?

That's crazy, makes no sense.

yeah, it's almost like dirty bombs aren't real and never have been. makes ya think

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:22

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

HiroProtagonist posted:

i like this nuance from you, its really well written. i don't know how much you were gisting but it reads real well

Thank you, that�s why they pay me the medium bucks.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:22

Dixon Chisholm: Jan 2, 2020

Majorian posted:

Nobody knows how to weep in a manly way like a Hellene.

They are practicing for when Great T�rkiye finally rules Cyprus as is right.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:23

Nix Panicus: Feb 25, 2007

sum posted:

Ukrainian command seems a lot less optimistic about taking Kherson than Twitter. Also bonus accusation that Russia soldiers are dressing up as civilians to make Ukraine look bad when they kill them. I really should make a list of all the insane things the Ukrainian side has said were false flags.

_{(from t.me/rezident_ua/14935, via tgsa)}

Its very funny to me that Ukraine spent so much effort on destroying all the bridges across the Dnieper and now their counter attack is never going to get off the ground because someone blew up all the bridges across the Dnieper. Really looking forward to the upcoming narrative shift to where it was Russia that blew up the bridges to avoid having to face the might of Ukraine

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:23

CODChimera: Jan 29, 2009

so when is the next russian offensive? how are those conscripts doing?

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:24

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# ? May 20, 2024 15:43

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Cold take: it�s gonna get cold and slow and then the narrative will be truly unbearable leading up to the spring offensives.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 01:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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