[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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speng31b: May 8, 2010

I've noticed that a few of the more psychotic pro Ukrainian accounts that love to tweet about how many collaborators they murdered before breakfast have started on pretty heavy with the line that any civilian who evacuated Kherson is a collaborator to be killed, so, that sucks

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:16

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# ? May 23, 2024 03:58

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

feeling a hankering for some blinchiki this morning.....

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:19

Lord of Pie: Mar 2, 2007

speng31b posted:

I've noticed that a few of the more psychotic pro Ukrainian accounts that love to tweet about how many collaborators they murdered before breakfast have started on pretty heavy with the line that any civilian who evacuated Kherson is a collaborator to be killed, so, that sucks

so the civilians that don't evacuate are fine, right? :anakin:

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:20

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

speng31b posted:

I've noticed that a few of the more psychotic pro Ukrainian accounts that love to tweet about how many collaborators they murdered before breakfast have started on pretty heavy with the line that any civilian who evacuated Kherson is a collaborator to be killed, so, that sucks

how big is the kill list spreadsheet file now, like drat

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:20

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

euphronius posted:

it�s weird the words Russia and Prussia are not really etymologically linked

Preu�en versus Россия

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:20

Tankbuster: Oct 1, 2021

fits my needs posted:

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1588471118767083520?s=20&t=06hipgvxS1A79eBjRPgDYw

Moms demand action on Iran.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:28

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

Raskolnikov38 posted:

is it civil air traffic though? given the tweet says NATO flights and is over a month why can�t the lines be military flights only

One of the clues that AZgeopolitics is bullshitting its readers is that this plot of �NATO flights� includes flights from non-NATO civil airports on the map.

And then even if AZGeopolitics didn�t include those flights, an honest broker would need yo normalize for flights to Reszow prior to conflict.

They�re providing an image with zero source evidence and with glaring errors on the map and assuming their readers either won�t understand or won�t care.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:28

nomad2020: Jan 30, 2007

Saw we have a new QCS apology and thread, I�m assuming this means no one�s won yet?

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:35

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Hey is there any good articles about why Tim Synder sucks as a hisorian that can't be misconstrued as Pro-Stalinist. My Ukrianian friend was telling me he was watching some lecture he gave on YouTube and I told him I wouldn't trust a word he says cause hes ridiculously biased and I'd like to follow it up with a proper source

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:39

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

KomradeX posted:

Hey is there any good articles about why Tim Synder sucks as a hisorian that can't be misconstrued as Pro-Stalinist. My Ukrianian friend was telling me he was watching some lecture he gave on YouTube and I told him I wouldn't trust a word he says cause hes ridiculously biased and I'd like to follow it up with a proper source

https://booksandideas.net/Timothy-Snyder-and-his-Critics.html

This one maybe?

Though, on reflection that is maybe not what you're looking for, and some of those critics also seem to be loons.

genericnick has issued a correction as of 14:59 on Nov 4, 2022

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:41

Zerg Mans: Oct 19, 2006; Can't post for 11 hours!

There's strong evidence that it was actually Ukrainian soldiers dressing up as women who want to show their hair who got shot to make Iran and thus Russia look bad

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:44

Pretzel Rod Serling: Aug 6, 2008

let me post the inaugural shut the gently caress up Zerg mans

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:47

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

nomad2020 posted:

Saw we have a new QCS apology and thread, I’m assuming this means no one’s won yet?

The victory will be when this thread doesn't close, the key to victory is not discussing that topic.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:51

speng31b: May 8, 2010

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2022/11/4/live-news-zelenskyy-says-4-5-million-ukrainians-without-power

power situation

quote:

About 4.5 million Ukrainians were temporarily without power on Thursday evening due to Russian attacks, President Zelenskyy says.

[...]

About 450,000 residential properties in Kyiv are currently without electricity following Russian strikes on Ukrainian energy infrastructure, the city�s mayor Vitali Klitschko has said.

�I appeal to all residents of the capital: Save electricity as much as possible because the situation remains difficult,� Klitschko said in a Telegram post.

Russia has repeatedly carried out missile and drone attacks on Ukrainian power facilities, particularly in recent weeks.

uh...stdh.txt

quote:

Moscow has probably started deploying �blocking units� that will threaten to shoot retreating Russian soldiers, according to the UK.

changed from "they're not retreating" to "the retreat is a trap"...?

quote:

Kyiv warns talk of a Russian withdrawal from the southern region�s capital could be a trap.

civilians hopefully mostly evaced by now

quote:

Russia�s defence ministry says that �more than 5,000 civilians� are being evacuated from Kherson each day, as Kyiv�s forces press ahead with a counteroffensive in the partly-occupied southern region.

�Military engineers every day transport up to 1,200 civilian vehicles, both trucks and cars, as well as more than 5,000 civilians� to the eastern bank of the Dnieper river, the ministry said in a statement.

according to russia, only about 15% of their mobilized force is deployed

quote:

Russia has drafted 318,000 people into its armed forces following Moscow�s partial mobilisation order in late September, according to the country�s president.

Russia�s state-owned RIA Novosti news agency quoted Putin as saying that 49,000 of those drafted were already performing combat missions, with the rest engaged in training.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 14:55

nomad2020: Jan 30, 2007

Azathoth posted:

The victory will be when this thread doesn't close, the key to victory is not discussing that topic.

Seems like a short view, we could easily wring 20+ years of entertainment out of this topic. Much like a new Afghanistan.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:01

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

nomad2020 posted:

Seems like a short view, we could easily wring 20+ years of entertainment out of this topic. Much like a new Afghanistan.

i didn't think we got anything entertaining out of afghanistan, just endless permutations of "i signed up for free college, then the government sent me to afghanistan where i did war crimes and it made me sad"

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:04

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

Tankies keep coping. Ukraine will win. The West will win. Your Russian empire WILL FALL.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:04

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

redneck nazgul posted:

i didn't think we got anything entertaining out of afghanistan, just endless permutations of "i signed up for free college, then the government sent me to afghanistan where i did war crimes and it made me sad"

Was it against the rules to support the invasion of Afghanistan? No. Thus it was a good conflict.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:06

tazjin: Jul 24, 2015

I'm away for a handful of pages and you people got the whole thread closed! Incredible.

Anyways, for lack of on the ground updates from Russia, I have to resort to on the ground updates from Stockholm where Pizza Hut is openly displaying its support for the SMO:

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:06

Zerg Mans: Oct 19, 2006; Can't post for 11 hours!

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:07

speng31b: May 8, 2010

redneck nazgul posted:

i didn't think we got anything entertaining out of afghanistan, just endless permutations of "i signed up for free college, then the government sent me to afghanistan where i did war crimes and it made me sad"

we got an entire generation in the US who realized slowly that they are the evil imperial aggressors, and then immediately pivoted to warmongering at the nearest opportunity. it's not super entertaining

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:09

lobster shirt: Jun 14, 2021

tazjin posted:

I'm away for a handful of pages and you people got the whole thread closed! Incredible.

Anyways, for lack of on the ground updates from Russia, I have to resort to on the ground updates from Stockholm where Pizza Hut is openly displaying its support for the SMO:

пицца хат... must be destroyed

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:09

speng31b: May 8, 2010

tazjin posted:

I'm away for a handful of pages and you people got the whole thread closed! Incredible.

Anyways, for lack of on the ground updates from Russia, I have to resort to on the ground updates from Stockholm where Pizza Hut is openly displaying its support for the SMO:

the physics of that cup appear sub optimal

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:10

fits my needs: Jan 1, 2011; Grimey Drawer

tazjin posted:

I'm away for a handful of pages and you people got the whole thread closed! Incredible.

Anyways, for lack of on the ground updates from Russia, I have to resort to on the ground updates from Stockholm where Pizza Hut is openly displaying its support for the SMO:

lol nice

did anyone show up in person yet to ur friends that�s overseas apartment to try to draft him or whatever?

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:11

nomad2020: Jan 30, 2007

redneck nazgul posted:

i didn't think we got anything entertaining out of afghanistan, just endless permutations of "i signed up for free college, then the government sent me to afghanistan where i did war crimes and it made me sad"

Maybe entertainment is selling it a bit hard. What do you call dealing with a half dozen trauma laden logistics dudes who pivot between thinking they�re Rambo and thinking their whole way of life is currently under attack by the ghosts in their heads?

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:13

tazjin: Jul 24, 2015

fits my needs posted:

lol nice

did anyone show up in person yet to ur friends that�s overseas apartment to try to draft him or whatever?

No, and mobilisation in Moscow is concluded so they likely won't. Either way, as long as he was not personally handed the draft notice he doesn't actually count as having been drafted.

I also think that even if he was in Russia and had gone to the военкомат, they would likely have sent him back home because he didn't actually do military service (he was studying), but in a different oblast (which their lovely databases likely don't know about).

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:18

Jose Mengelez: Sep 11, 2001; by Azathoth

gradenko_2000 posted:

do we know about people who volunteered for Russia?

dunno much about russia's foreign legions but in the donbas some spanish antifascists joined prizrak brigade and i heard a rumour black lenin was back in donetsk and was apparently one of the prisoner's exchanged a little while back, can't find any confirmation of this though. either way, dude owns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beness_Aijo

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

KomradeX posted:

Hey is there any good articles about why Tim Synder sucks as a hisorian that can't be misconstrued as Pro-Stalinist. My Ukrianian friend was telling me he was watching some lecture he gave on YouTube and I told him I wouldn't trust a word he says cause hes ridiculously biased and I'd like to follow it up with a proper source

Timothy Snyder's Bad History

quote:

It was the advent of Donald Trump�mentioned no less than 100 times in Snyder�s latest book, The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, America�that catapulted Snyder from academic star to intellectual celebrity. Shortly after the 2016 election, he published On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century, in which he warned Americans that Trump could launch a fascist revolution. The book disturbed many historians, who believed that Snyder was trafficking in alarmism. But Snyder reaped a small fortune from his prophecy, despite the gathering authoritarian gloom, establishing himself as the liberal media�s resident credentialed doomsayer. This distinguished Yale historian has become a kind of American apparatchik, validating and enforcing the elite media�s party line in such snappy articles as �How Hitler Pioneered �Fake News�� (New York Times), �Trump�s Big Election Lie Pushes America Toward Autocracy� (Boston Globe), and �Trump�s �Delay the Election� Tweet Checks All Eight Rules for Propaganda� (Washington Post).

...

For what could be more darkly funny than imagining, in 1940, at the height of Hitler�s reign, the publication in Germany of a bestseller called On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Nineteenth Century? Or the publication, in a Berlin newspaper, in 1938, of an article that helpfully informed readers how Hitler�s annexation of the Sudetenland �Checked All Eight Rules for Dangerous Irredentism�? Snyder has made a lucrative career of commodifying historical analogies, but no precedents exist for a popular historian leading his country away from political disaster via bestselling books and newspaper articles. For a historian of the Holocaust, Snyder is remarkably at ease while living through history, even as he cries that it is closing in around him. As he told the Yale Daily News: �The bad news is that our republic is in a lot of trouble. The good news is that On Tyranny is a practical guide for how to defend a republic, how to defend individual freedoms, so if a lot of people are reading it, that�s good news.�

Snyder has become a one-man industry of panic, a prophet whose profitability depends on his prophecies never coming true. He could flourish only in a country so far removed from �totalitarianism��a word he freely applies to America�as to seem historically blessed with eternal freedom. Yet while he remakes himself into a media functionary, genuine figures of intellect and principle in actual authoritarian countries suffer when they speak the truth. As Snyder draws facile analogies between America and Russia from his aerie in New Haven, Alexei Navalny struggles to survive each day and night in Vladimir Putin�s asphyxiating universe.

____

Double genocide theory - this is literally just the wikipedia article on the topic

quote:

Timothy Snyder's book Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin (2010) drew scholarly criticism for being seen as suggesting a moral equivalence between Soviet mass murders and the Nazi Holocaust. Historian Richard J. Evans commented: "It seems to me that he is simply equating Nazi genocide with the mass murders carried out in the Soviet Union under Stalin. ... There is nothing wrong with comparing. It's the equation that I find highly troubling."[15] Zuroff refers to the book as "the equivalency canard."[16] In a public debate in The Guardian starting in September 2010, Zuroff accused Snyder of providing a scholarly basis for "the historically-inaccurate 'double genocide' theories" by emphasizing the Molotov�Ribbentrop Pact and deflecting the full blame from the major culprit of the World War II.[17] Katz commented that "Snyder flirts with the very wrong moral equivalence between Hitler and Stalin",[15] to which Snyder responded: "I coincide with Zuroff and Katz on the centrality of the Holocaust, but we must not overlook how Stalin enabled Hitler's crimes."[18] Katz says that Snyder's historical reassessment of the Nazi�Soviet pact coincides with Baltic ultranationalist agendas.[19]

According to historian Thomas K�hne, going back to the Historikerstreit, conservative intellectuals such as Ernst Nolte and the Holocaust uniqueness debate, the attempts to link Soviet and Nazi crimes, citing books such as Snyder's Bloodlands as prominent examples, are "as politically tricky today as it was then. As it seems to reduce the responsibility of the Nazis and their collaborators, supporters and claqueurs, it is welcomed in rightist circles of various types: German conservatives in the 1980s, who wanted to 'normalise' the German past, and East European and ultranationalists today, who downplay Nazi crimes and up-play Communist crimes in order to promote a common European memory that merges Nazism and Stalinism into a 'double-genocide' theory that prioritises East European suffering over Jewish suffering, obfuscates the distinction between perpetrators and victims, and provides relief from the bitter legacy of East Europeans' collaboration in the Nazi genocide."[20]

___

Warping History

quote:

In the conclusion of his astonishing book, Snyder abandons history and enters the realm of prophecy: �Understanding the Holocaust,� he explains, �is our chance, perhaps our last one, to preserve humanity.�

Hitler, Snyder says, was more than a �biological anarchist,� he also was an ecological strategist, and his project of building an �Aryan� empire was rooted into a pitiless calculation of the available natural resources in continental Europe.

Germans could not establish their millennial rule without taking possession of corn, oil, and other resources of Eastern Europe. This is true � the conquest of �living space� had also �ecological� concerns, insofar as its racial domination implied a complete control of demography, economy, territories, and their natural resources.

These concerns, Snyder explains, were eclipsed in the postwar years by the �Green Revolution� that allowed Germany to become a prosperous nation without conquering the Soviet Union (and in spite of losing much of their old territories). But the lessons of the �first globalization� (whose �child,� according to Snyder, was Hitler) once again become relevant at the beginning of the twenty-first century, when the control of natural resources will decide the future of our planet.

This struggle may become as violent and pitiless as the zoological battle for racial selection conceived by Hitler almost one century ago, Snyder concludes, and we should not dismiss the possibility that this struggle will become the basis of new wars and genocides. This is why the lessons of the Holocaust are so important � �The struggle against the Jews was ecological,� Snyder writes, insofar as �it concerned not a specific racial enemy or territory but the conditions of life on earth.�

Assuming such premises, one might see the first signs of this catastrophic scenario in the Western wars against Iraq and Libya, through which the great powers tried to control fundamental sites of oil production. But the Cassandra�s warning Snyder launches simply reiterates the commonplaces of neoconservatism � the future will be a clash of civilizations and the West has to get ready for a new Crusade.

Africa demonstrates the risk of local shortages, China suggests the problems of global power and national anxiety, and Russia shows how practices of the 1930s can come to seem like positive examples. Thanks in large measure to Moscow, state destruction and the construction of planetary enemies have returned to vogue in Europe. In the Middle East, states tend to be weak, and Islamic fundamentalists have long presented Jews, Americans, and Europeans as planetary enemies.

Russia, whose leader has taken �the head of populist, fascist, and neo-Nazi forces in Europe,� has invented a new scapegoat, the homosexuals, but the Jews themselves could become the victims of a second Holocaust, Snyder argues.

Finally, Snyder brings his misguided political argument to a close by transforming his territorial history of statelessness into a spirited defense of Israel.

�Zionists of all orientations were correct to believe that statehood was crucial to future national existence,� Snyder writes � but he fails to mention that this conclusion would seem to legitimate a demand for Palestinian statehood.

For Snyder, this observation rather proves that Israelis are right to control water supplies in the West Bank, and Palestinians echo Nazis in their complaints: �Muslims might blame Jews for both local problems and the general ecological crisis; that was, after all, Hitler�s approach.�

In Black Earth�s conclusion, Snyder turns into an admirer � equal parts na�ve and dogmatic � of Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir, and Benjamin Netanyahu � Israeli leaders he considers to be noble descendants of their ancestors, the heroic Polish nationalists of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

The author of Bloodlands may have made important contributions to Holocaust historiography. But five years later, the prophet of Black Earth preaches Zionist and neoconservative platitudes, and obscures more history than he uncovers.

___

Jewish Currents, 2017: The Double Genocide Theory

quote:

UNITED STATES POLICY regarding the Double Genocide theory began to change markedly around 2009 ... As one American diplomat put it to me some years ago, off the record: �Look, these guys will stand up to the Russians, not like England, France and Germany. And if all they want is some changes in the history, and it�s changes that hit Putin in the face, then why the hell not?!�

American embassies in the region have thus organized one-sided Holocaust conferences closed to a diversity of views. When in 2012 the Lithuanian government repatriated from Putnam, Connecticut, the remains of the 1941 Nazi puppet prime minister who signed papers ordering the Jews of his city, Kaunas, to a murder camp and the rest to the Kovno Ghetto, the American Embassy, instead of politely speaking up in the spirit of American values, covered for the sham with �balanced statements� and the organization of a cover-up conference featuring Yale professor Timothy Snyder as well as the director of YIVO.

Nobody at the conference even mentioned the reburial with full honors underway. When the East European countries inserted Double Genocide language, blaming both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, equally, for �genocide,� into a declaration of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in 2009, the United States voted for it.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:18

AnimeIsTrash: Jun 30, 2018

gradenko_2000 posted:

do we know about people who volunteered for Russia?

https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1097428256855347201?lang=en

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:30

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

AnimeIsTrash posted:

https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1097428256855347201?lang=en

This poo poo, which I do not support, slaps

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:32

Zerg Mans: Oct 19, 2006; Can't post for 11 hours!

AnimeIsTrash posted:

https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/1097428256855347201?lang=en

throat singing and rap works very well together
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el93MIxAf-c

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:34

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Sayan march?! is Vegeta fighting with the Russians now?!

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:35

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Al-Saqr posted:

Sayan march?! is Vegeta fighting with the Russians now?!

actually this means he's fighting with the ukrainians

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:40

PhilippAchtel: May 31, 2011

Al-Saqr posted:

Putin and zelensky should both give up, come to my house and play 40k with me

Don't forget Hank Cavill

https://twitter.com/anniegreengable/status/1587918173977726982

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:44

Malleum: Aug 16, 2014; Am I the one at fault? What about me is wrong?; Buglord

redneck nazgul posted:

actually this means he's fighting with the ukrainians

as the founding member of the Z fighters, goku has been supporting the special military operation since the beginning. mauripol was the end of the raditz saga, and we're currently in the middle of the gohan training ark (the evacuation of kherson) in preparation for vegeta's arrival (the battle of kherson)

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:52

Zerg Mans: Oct 19, 2006; Can't post for 11 hours!

Al-Saqr posted:

Sayan march?! is Vegeta fighting with the Russians now?!

Vegeta actually painted the M on his forehead before blowing away the tournament crowd to make Babidi look bad

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:52

redneck nazgul: Apr 25, 2013

Zerg Mans posted:

Vegeta actually painted the M on his forehead before blowing away the tournament crowd to make Babidi look bad

we have a strict "no war crime denial" policy in this thread

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:54

Starsfan: Sep 29, 2007; This is what happens when you disrespect Cam Neely

speng31b posted:

I've noticed that a few of the more psychotic pro Ukrainian accounts that love to tweet about how many collaborators they murdered before breakfast have started on pretty heavy with the line that any civilian who evacuated Kherson is a collaborator to be killed, so, that sucks

and if you were following along last night the civilians who remain in Kherson are actually Russian soldiers dressed in civilian clothing, so obviously you gotta eliminate those guys too

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:56

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

Starsfan posted:

and if you were following along last night the civilians who remain in Kherson are actually Russian soldiers dressed in civilian clothing, so obviously you gotta eliminate those guys too

# ? Nov 4, 2022 15:58

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# ? May 23, 2024 03:58

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

lobster shirt posted:

feeling a hankering for some blinchiki this morning.....

yeah that's the good stuff.

# ? Nov 4, 2022 16:01

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