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Atrocious Joe posted:In a New Hope more rebels fighters are destroyed on screen than Tie Fighters. Well the lack of shields is the only thing that matters in a dogfight and then only if they are getting shot at, being yoked to a capital ship and being unable to deal with enemy ships are strategic downsides Best Friends posted:rogue one establishing that hyperdrive speed from anywhere to anywhere is a couple minutes max really raises the question of what is even the point of capital ships. That's always kinda been an underlying concern that can't quite be expressed because the Rebels are the Good Guys and no one wants to explicitly give them a political program. Plus a bunch of old EU authors took the reasonable idea that the New Republic has a hard time running the galaxy straight into "hmm maybe the Empire was right" (The hyperdrive thing also bugs the poo poo out of me, yes)
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Nov 7, 2022 19:38
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loquacius posted:also why is there a low-speed chase in last jedi, how does that remotely make sense in a world with FTL travel, couldn't the first order just put some more ships in front of them They wanted to have a castle siege scene in space. The lasers even arc like catapults
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Nov 7, 2022 19:40
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Even the interceptor doesn't have shields or missile launchers. What is the star wars equivalent of a pickup technical
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Nov 7, 2022 19:44
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projecthalaxy posted:What is the star wars equivalent of a pickup technical
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Nov 7, 2022 19:51
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loquacius posted:also why is there a low-speed chase in last jedi, how does that remotely make sense in a world with FTL travel, couldn't the first order just put some more ships in front of them forget the Last Jedi, what's the timeline of the Empire Strikes Back Cpt_Obvious posted:Even the interceptor doesn't have shields or missile launchers. The EU adopted the view that the Rebels were NATO forces and the Empire were the Eastern bloc in space. The popular western view was that NATO forces were less numerous but were more elite with better equipment. The Eastern bloc was seen as having more forces of worse quality, but a willingness to sacrifice their men to win. This view was influence by Nazi commanders memoirs about the eastern front more than real conditions on the ground in WW2 or the Cold War. This analysis seeped into US/UK wargames and military fiction. With the Star Wars EU having its foundations laid by the West End RPG and then military scifi author Timothy Zahn, it's not surprising they transplanted common genre tropes to the setting. The big issue is that it doesn't make sense in the films. X-Wings and other rebel fighters are hot rods mashed up with WW2 fighters. The accomplishment we see on-screen in the New Hope is that the rebels can soup up their old spacecraft to be comparable to the government's new military fighters. In Return of the Jedi we see a bigger but still hodgepodge rebel fleet, and they still get mauled up in the straight up fight.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:52
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projecthalaxy posted:What is the star wars equivalent of a pickup technical The airspeeder is canonically a tow truck that has guns strapped on. The Legion miniatures wargame has the Rebels using civilian landspeeders and trucks as impromptu transports and light AFVs
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Nov 7, 2022 19:52
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The only actual inferiority of the TIEs in the movies was the lack of a Hyperdrive. All the other things like shields, disposability, etc were invented by the EU. Similarly we never really learn exactly how the Rebels got this badass fleet of warships in RotJ. Each class of ship getting its own little origin story as a stolen Imperial craft or a retrofitted cruise liner etc was something that got built up over decades of material.
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Nov 7, 2022 19:57
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Luke killed over a million people when he blew up the first Death Star. That's kind of hosed up
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Nov 7, 2022 19:59
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Luke killed over a million people when he blew up the first Death Star. That's kind of hosed up Little Eichmanns
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Nov 7, 2022 20:01
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it was the Empire's relying on low bid contracts, bad engineering. someone would have thrown something in that hole eventually.
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Nov 7, 2022 20:03
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galagazombie posted:The only actual inferiority of the TIEs in the movies was the lack of a Hyperdrive. All the other things like shields, disposability, etc were invented by the EU. Similarly we never really learn exactly how the Rebels got this badass fleet of warships in RotJ. Each class of ship getting its own little origin story as a stolen Imperial craft or a retrofitted cruise liner etc was something that got built up over decades of material. can't we see two lasers for each x-wing's four?
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Nov 7, 2022 20:04
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projecthalaxy posted:What is the star wars equivalent of a pickup technical  the turret isn't remote operated. there's a little pop-out stand in the back also from the holiday special  timestamp https://youtu.be/6hH8rxarVG8?t=3524 the video is better there are a bunch more in extended stuff but those are the two... official... ones i remember Cuttlefush has issued a correction as of 20:15 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 20:07
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galagazombie posted:The only actual inferiority of the TIEs in the movies was the lack of a Hyperdrive. All the other things like shields, disposability, etc were invented by the EU. Similarly we never really learn exactly how the Rebels got this badass fleet of warships in RotJ. Each class of ship getting its own little origin story as a stolen Imperial craft or a retrofitted cruise liner etc was something that got built up over decades of material. Proton torpedoes are in New Hope and TIE fighters don't have anything like that  Also two lasers vs four is similarly confirmed in the movies but that's not THAT big a difference
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Nov 7, 2022 20:09
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loquacius posted:Also two lasers vs four is similarly confirmed in the movies but that's not THAT big a difference it adds a y-axis to the target profile! it is kinda funny the lasers all come from the wings, which was phased out on fighter planes for nose-mounted cannons because of accuracy
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Nov 7, 2022 20:20
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I think the problem is that Star Wars treats space interchangeably as air or sea depending on the visual language of the scene. George Lucas was a movie guy, so he borrowed from the Dambuster's, Sink the Bismarck, and other films he would have watched growing up. It works really well on screen, and of course is why there's "flight" in space in Star Wars - but only for small vessels. He was also a Baby Boomer so a lot of WW2 things were just in the culture even if you weren't a military minded person. TIE fighters as Zeroes and X-Wings as, I don't know P-38's with drop tanks, it's possible that would just "click" in a way that it wouldn't now. TIE fighters are carrier-based and patrol short distances around the endless expanse of the "ocean". X-Wings can fly from "islands" a long way from home. It makes sense to someone in a culture where the Solomon Islands Campaign was something there was like an ambient background knowledge of because everybody's dad had been in it. One problem is that capital ships seem to use the visual language and terminology of Dreadnought battleships, which never really works well imo. They're all carriers and have large gun batteries, they don't seem to have easily readable fleet tactics - which make sense because naval battles are hard to film - ranges and speeds aren't readable - which is another problem with filming naval combat. Time and space are hard to put in a shot, even if you zoom out, warships all sort of look the same to audiences, there's not as clear a place for characters in a scene, because what are you going to do, show them watching a map plot or gun director? Even if you took a direct overhead view, is it very legible?  (1) 15:22 hrs, Hipper sights Beatty. (2) 15:48 hrs, First shots fired by Hipper's squadron. (3) 16:00 hrs-16:05 hrs, Indefatigable explodes, leaving two survivors. (4) 16:25 hrs, Queen Mary explodes, nine survive. (5) 16:45 hrs, Beatty's battlecruisers move out of range of Hipper. (6) 16:54 hrs, Evan-Thomas's battleships turn north behind Beatty. The battlecruiser action at Jutland spanned an hour, so you couldn't have all of the manoeuvres in a single overhead shot, you'd have to cut back and forth or something. It's hard to get a sense of, and this is all happening in two dimensions. Star Wars added a third. Then there's the issue that fleet tactics with big guns, aircraft and missiles are all different. Star Wars isn't sure which period it wants to use, and of course while you can say in actuality they're all combined today, no ship with a 3 inch gun is going to manoeuvre like in the days of the 16 inch main battery. When aircraft launched anti-ship missiles have a range of up to 600km, aircraft and ships don't manoeuvre as if they are dodging torpedoes at Midway. This is further complicated because again, I don't know how to make armaments legible on film - what's dangerous, from how far away, what needs to be done to use or avoid it and so on. Star Wars doesn't have that level of coherence. For example, because George Lucas must have read a book about Trafalgar or something, Revenge of the Sith opens with a melee of broadside armed ships at close range. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kUVyNqxh1o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeyTC9vTtLc Rogue One adds helicopters which is even more confusing   The Last Jedi adds strategic bombers which I just learned were called "MG-100 StarFortress SF-17" aka. B-17 Flying Fortress https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPX56GQ2s-w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kifay7-eybs These all work individually because they're borrowing shots from war movies, and so it's a visual language that's recognizable. The problem is that when combined it's all over the place. Where Battlestar Galactica just decided that a Battlestar was a Nimitz Class aircraft carrier, it succeeded.     But where it also tried to do submarines in space, or main gun engagements, or long range missile engagements, it didn't.
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Nov 7, 2022 20:28
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i say swears online posted:it adds a y-axis to the target profile! tie fighters have nose-mounted lasers, like the bf109/fw190. x-wings have wing mounted lasers, like spitfires/hurricanes. it's like poetry, it rhymes
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Nov 7, 2022 20:29
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Frosted Flake posted:Rogue One adds helicopters which is even more confusing Already there in Episode 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZnL4mcU5dg
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Nov 7, 2022 20:33
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I'm just so tired of all of these Star Wars
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Nov 7, 2022 20:35
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the point of star wars is to look cool and not care about making a lot of sense when it comes to the details. lucas understood this and no one else really has. they wrote/illustrated all those cross section technical guides and poo poo out reams of justification for total bullshit and he signed off on it without even looking while laughing his way to the bank
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Nov 7, 2022 20:36
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and don’t get me started on military advisors. The government just commissioned a Heritage Moment on the North Shore Regiment in Normandy: https://youtu.be/-AuKXAftIts and they have the soldiers carrying Lee-Enfields (9lbs) in the high ready position designed for the C8 (6lbs), rather than how Canadians carried rifles in the war. They also have the soldiers firing from Gunfighter Stance even though they don’t have plates and makes no sense for a bolt action rifle. So far as I know, it was unusual to ever advance while firing. It’s what happens when you bring in advisors who know modern police and military drills and small unit tactics but not the historical ones. Artillery is hardly ever on film but gun crews on screen invariably use the gun drill of whatever country the movie was made in when it was made, I’m guessing because they are soldiers filling in as extras and not actors learning historical techniques. Mostly this is seen in reloading drills, how ears are protected (finger in ear or palm covering), how lanyards are pulled etc. Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 20:41 on Nov 7, 2022 |
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Nov 7, 2022 20:38
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DR FRASIER KRANG posted:I'm just so tired of all of these Star Wars
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Nov 7, 2022 20:39
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Cuttlefush posted:
Sick. Love the guy with the rifle behind and above the turret gunner on the orange one. Spotter? Commissar? Paying passenger? We may never know.
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Nov 7, 2022 20:39
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I remember someone pointing out that some of the space battle choreography has XWings directly borrowing from weird maneuvers Spitfires had to do in the early war because their engines would stall out if they dived too hard. But yeah Star Wars has always been a hodgepodge of whatever war movie tropes look cool
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Nov 7, 2022 20:39
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there's no sound in space
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Nov 7, 2022 20:54
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I get that the eu and games and stuff exist but it feels silly thinking about stuff that are props or storytelling devices as if they're vehicles in war thunder "Could Ramsay Bolton defeat the Lannisters using the phalanx tactic shown in Battle of the Bastards???" like no dude who cares it was shot that way to visually show them being in a desperate, unwinnable situation so that Sansa could bail them out, not because Jon Snow hosed up his troop placement in the preparation screen after accidentally clicking a doomstack
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Nov 7, 2022 20:58
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Everyone knows the only coherent, thought-out science fiction is the Culture series
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Nov 7, 2022 21:01
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StashAugustine posted:I remember someone pointing out that some of the space battle choreography has XWings directly borrowing from weird maneuvers Spitfires had to do in the early war because their engines would stall out if they dived too hard. But yeah Star Wars has always been a hodgepodge of whatever war movie tropes look cool it's the thing where they dive by rolling upside down first, it's in almost every x-wing scene lol this is because early hurricanes and spitfires had simple float type carburetors, so as soon as you pull negative Gs, fuel floods and chokes out the engine. it wasn't needed when they started using direct injection, but it sure does look cool!
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Nov 7, 2022 21:08
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For battles that don't take place in space I care about and get annoyed if the tactics, equipment etc. don't make any sense. But if it's in space I just like whatever looks cool.
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Nov 7, 2022 21:09
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star wars has bad sword fights however, i just watched 2 of the roruni kenshin movies (pt 5 the prequel, then pt4 the final which was filmed with the prequel) and god drat they were great. fantastic sword fighting! great choreography! a bunch of cool looking characters with goofy outfits to stand out and have some good scenes! now this is what movies are all about. im gonna go watch the original trilogy too
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Nov 7, 2022 21:13
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I really liked the fight choreography of The King, basically everything about that movie is great imo
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Nov 7, 2022 21:17
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I liked the end of ep 9 where for some reason finn had to lead a cavalry charge up the side of a spaceship with his new girlfriend. I forget why they had to ride space horses on the spaceship's hull
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Nov 7, 2022 21:29
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projecthalaxy posted:I liked the end of ep 9 where for some reason finn had to lead a cavalry charge up the side of a spaceship with his new girlfriend. I forget why they had to ride space horses on the spaceship's hull hey why not i like how they gave Finn a different potential female love interest in each movie when all anyone wanted was for him and Poe to get together.
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Nov 7, 2022 21:38
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Truga posted:it's the thing where they dive by rolling upside down first, it's in almost every x-wing scene lol
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Nov 7, 2022 21:51
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cowboy
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Grevling posted:For battles that don't take place in space I care about and get annoyed if the tactics, equipment etc. don't make any sense. But if it's in space I just like whatever looks cool. If it made sense the action would be visually readable scene to scene, film to film while still looking cool. You don't have to know about IRL carrier air operations for BSG to make sense, but the consistency allows you to know at a glance what's possible, what's not, when the protagonists are in danger, when the situation is in hand etc. It helps the plot too as once they've established how things work they can set or raise the stakes, by say having a catapult out of action or something. Instead of needing the Death Star to give way to Death Star II, Starkiller Base, Ghost Star Destroyers (?), a mechanical fault is enough for the situation to be more dangerous for the protagonists. Both Top Gun movies do a great job of this, and you really don't have to know too much about air operations, it's all there in the visual language and dialogue of the film. The ticking clock on scrambling interceptors to protect a disabled ship or the difficulty in conducting a strike in a high threat AD environment, it's all communicated really well.
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Nov 7, 2022 21:57
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I mean I think that complaint boils down to "the prequels were stupid and the sequels were somehow stupider"
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Nov 7, 2022 22:07
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Speaking of, the new top gun basically has a Death Star trench run
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Nov 7, 2022 22:14
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StashAugustine posted:I mean I think that complaint boils down to "the prequels were stupid and the sequels were somehow stupider" Yeah. Though thinking back I have no idea how you could get an audience to care about battles that are an army of clones on one side and an army of robots on the other. Even if you zoom up to the operational level, the war doesn't seem to have any clear aims, it's just.. happening. Then beyond that, it's a war for the preservation and integrity of a republic the audience knows will become an evil empire. So, what matters in any battle? The soldiers are disposable and interchangeable on both sides, the battles aren't part of a greater plan, and the ultimate stakes don't really matter either. It's one of the more incomprehensible things to me. George Lucas hung his films on a war nobody should care about.
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Nov 7, 2022 22:14
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Frosted Flake posted:Yeah. Clone Wars manages to turn some decent stuff out of it, by giving the clones actual personality and occasionally playing with the actual idea of how people bred to be soldiers are kinda hosed up, plus the dramatic irony that in the end its all gonna be a waste. And it's pretty episodic so the stakes are just "we need to take this planet for Reasons" and that's all you need to know, it's just a grid reference on a map. But ofc the prequels themselves don't do enough with it, admittedly partly for time constraints but also because the battles are huge CGI messes E: one thing I did like about the Thrawn books was making the operational stakes of campaigns sort of make sense
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Nov 7, 2022 22:18
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Well just like Andor, I wish the interesting ideas and good execution made it into the things everyone will see instead of side projects after the fact.
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Nov 7, 2022 22:29
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it's actually canon at least in the pre-disney expanded universe times that imperial pilots on the whole tend to be vastly superior to rebel pilots precisely because tie fighters are made of tissue paper and they needed to be. like turncoat tie pilots often became flight instructors for the rebellion and some of their best aces
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Nov 7, 2022 23:31
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