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whiggles posted:The banning of crusade was always confusing to me cause I thought there was an understanding that white represented not simply "virtuous" traits but also the naughty business people can get up to in the name of those same traits. Yeah a good number of the bans were "this just can look really bad these days" even if it wasn't really a problem in and of itself. Like Cleanse - a white card that says "destroy all black creatures" makes perfect sense in Magic but can be taken out of the context of the game very, very badly.
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Nov 8, 2022 19:44
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whiggles posted:The banning of crusade was always confusing to me cause I thought there was an understanding that white represented not simply "virtuous" traits but also the naughty business people can get up to in the name of those same traits. getting away from any discussion whatsoever about real-world naughty business that people might take offense to (or in turn defend/etc.) is pretty much the exact reason to purge such cards from an internationally successful nearly-all-ages game product the card also wasn't particularly important to salvage, as despite being one of the two originals players have been calling similar cards "anthem effects" instead of "crusade/bad moon effects" since shortly after 7th edition (nearly two full decades prior to the banning), there are a bazillion alternatives that don't have the baggage if they want that particular effect, and it wasn't really a competitive consideration in formats where it was legal prior to its banning (while being just good enough that it was playable by someone who put a premium on broadcasting their adherence to white supremacy via magic deck construction) plus its not even like the ban made people mad on the secondary market, since iirc Crusade (like most of those cards) now commands a "racism premium" for collectors/actual racists/whatever marginal demand is generated by people attempting to buy into Old School/Magic '96
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Nov 8, 2022 19:50
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In crusade's case it's because it's depicting a real life event using art based on a real-world understanding of it. It depicts a victorious Christian burning down an implied Muslim village.
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Nov 8, 2022 20:00
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There's honor of the pure to replace it anyway
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Nov 8, 2022 20:23
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HootTheOwl posted:In crusade's case it's because it's depicting a real life event using art based on a real-world understanding of it. Yeah I think just having a card named "Crusade" isn't necessarily a problem since it's just a word but they did it in the most yikes way possible Even calling it like "Serra's Crusade" would have avoided big yikes
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Nov 8, 2022 20:46
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precision posted:Yeah I think just having a card named "Crusade" isn't necessarily a problem since it's just a word but they did it in the most yikes way possible As many do. There's even another racist crusade that didn't get caught because Goblins aren't people.
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Nov 8, 2022 21:17
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LGD posted:getting away from any discussion whatsoever about real-world naughty business that people might take offense to (or in turn defend/etc.) is pretty much the exact reason to purge such cards from an internationally successful nearly-all-ages game product Yeah this. Back when people were making a big stink about Invoke Prejudice being racist (which, of course, it is) they totally ignored the fact that it's completely unplayable. Even if it cost 3U it would still be garbage in Standard, let alone in Legacy/Vintage.
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Nov 8, 2022 21:21
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HootTheOwl posted:As many do. There's even another racist crusade that didn't get caught because Goblins aren't people. oh wow  edit: i guess that's kinda nfsw actually
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Nov 8, 2022 21:27
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It's gross and crass but I'm missing any post-textual racism? Clue me in here.
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Nov 8, 2022 21:31
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Owlbear Camus posted:It's gross and crass but I'm missing any post-textual racism? Clue me in here. In fantasy, especially in DnD and Magic, races are often just a veneer over racial stereotypes. Additionally, often these races can have kids with each other (half orcs, half elves, half goblins) So a crusade against goblins is basically a crusade against some lesser IRL race, even if the artist didn't intend for it. My point though was that goblins are on one side of that veneer, and the targets of Crusade are on the other. That's why Crusade is banned and Tivadar's Crusade is legal.
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Nov 8, 2022 21:39
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HootTheOwl posted:In fantasy, especially in DnD and Magic, races are often just a veneer over racial stereotypes. Ah. I thought it was something more direct and on the nose like Invoke Prejudice I was missing.
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Nov 8, 2022 21:41
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Stone-Throwing Devils remains the only confusing one to me. I get the rationalisation for how it could be a slur but I cannot actually find a single example of it being used as one when googling it (it's almost entirely either the card or people asking why the card was banned, with a couple of witchcraft references).
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Nov 8, 2022 21:47
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Gynovore posted:Yeah this. Back when people were making a big stink about Invoke Prejudice being racist (which, of course, it is) they totally ignored the fact that it's completely unplayable. Even if it cost 3U it would still be garbage in Standard, let alone in Legacy/Vintage. Crusade itself had already been superseded by Honor of the Pure back in 2010, unless there was some weird edge case where you wanted your opponent's white creatures to also get +1/+1?
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Nov 8, 2022 22:02
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Crusade itself had already been superseded by Honor of the Pure back in 2010, unless there was some weird edge case where you wanted your opponent's white creatures to also get +1/+1? As with most weird edge cases like this if it was still being played it was probably in commander where you might want a bunch of differently named anthems for singleton reasons and symmetrical "group hug" effects might be in vogue in your play group for politicking.
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Nov 8, 2022 22:10
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Honestly “Honor of the Pure” buffing only your white creatures feels almost as sus
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Nov 8, 2022 22:16
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Stone-Throwing Devils remains the only confusing one to me. I get the rationalisation for how it could be a slur but I cannot actually find a single example of it being used as one when googling it (it's almost entirely either the card or people asking why the card was banned, with a couple of witchcraft references). apparently stone thrower is a slur against muslims/palestenians. here's a good answer:https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/561810/is-the-phrase-stone-throwing-devil-actually-a-slur in it it actually has a link to a MTG article where garfield said he got push back on using the name. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/magic-naming-arabian-nights-2002-08-09 quote:"An interesting story," said Garfield of the origins of this card name. "One island was occupied by stone-throwing devils in one of the stories. But some people were upset with me for its use, because apparently 'stone-throwing devil' is a derogatory term for someone. I suspect that 'stone-throwing devil' has been an expression for a long time, and its meanings have changed or been applied to different people." so its been on WOTC's radar since 2002
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Nov 8, 2022 22:20
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I'm looking forward to getting smoked by a wurmcoil engine in the prerelease just like I did in SOM  e: I was the one with Elesh Norn at the NPH prerelease, however. Instawin whenever she came down.
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Nov 8, 2022 22:21
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HootTheOwl posted:As many do. There's even another racist crusade that didn't get caught because Goblins aren't people. I ran a D&D Ravnica campaign and it was so hard to get my players to understand that on Ravnica, Goblins are mostly just normal people and not murder toddlers
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Nov 8, 2022 22:28
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whydirt posted:Honestly “Honor of the Pure” buffing only your white creatures feels almost as sus I was building a mono white sweeper tribal commander deck doing some trades with a guy, who happened to be black, and ask if he happens to have a Mass Calcify in his bulk. "Maybe, what's that one do?" he asks. I felt weird saying the rules text to him.
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Nov 8, 2022 22:37
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Charity Porno posted:I ran a D&D Ravnica campaign and it was so hard to get my players to understand that on Ravnica, Goblins are mostly just normal people and not murder toddlers Hell, same, I played a ravnica campaign where an ally goblin chopped my dead characters head off as a trophy cause he thought that’s what goblins do No rez for me
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Nov 8, 2022 22:56
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whydirt posted:Honestly “Honor of the Pure” buffing only your white creatures feels almost as sus Yeah I'm not sure why that one is better.
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Nov 8, 2022 22:58
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Strong Sauce posted:
I actually remember reading this article. I'm very old.
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Nov 8, 2022 23:13
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Crusade itself had already been superseded by Honor of the Pure back in 2010, unless there was some weird edge case where you wanted your opponent's white creatures to also get +1/+1? Yeah. Every single one of the cards on the no-no list is weak even relative to Standard cards, which means there's absolutely zero chance they would be played in older formats. Which means that the only possible consequence of the bannings is to draw attention to the cards. Which, one would think, is the exact opposite of what one would want to do... unless you're "wokewashing", which is exactly what they're doing. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 8, 2022 23:16
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people don't actually apologize and fix old stuff because they still like and approve of it no matter what buzzword you make up to call it
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Nov 8, 2022 23:19
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precision posted:Bros War has Go For the Throat??? Oh God, standard is gonna suck Don't worry about gftt. Infernal Grasp and Cut Down are much better already.
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Nov 8, 2022 23:36
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Gynovore posted:Yeah. Every single one of the cards on the no-no list is weak even relative to Standard cards, which means there's absolutely zero chance they would be played in older formats. Which means that the only possible consequence of the bannings is to draw attention to the cards. Which, one would think, is the exact opposite of what one would want to do... unless you're "wokewashing", which is exactly what they're doing. WoTC does lots of lovely things, but calling out these cards and banning them is good, OP
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Nov 8, 2022 23:47
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Toph Bei Fong posted:Crusade itself had already been superseded by Honor of the Pure back in 2010, unless there was some weird edge case where you wanted your opponent's white creatures to also get +1/+1? It's funny because, predating the racism bans, there was an Elspeth vs Ashiok event on Arena before Theros Beyond Death released. The Elspeth deck had a Crusade in it because it cared about devotion to white, BUT the Ashiok deck has an Afterlife creature in it so you'd randomly give your opponent's spirit token +1/+1.
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Nov 8, 2022 23:50
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whydirt posted:WoTC does lots of lovely things, but calling out these cards and banning them is good, OP Invoke Prejudice was gatherer ID 1488 for YEARS, Wizards was aware of the problem, and the entire time they just said "oh geez that's weird, it's too bad there's literally nothing we can do about it, we're slaves to the system!" Then some allegations against WotC came up, they banned several of these cards in response and suddently it wasn't 1488 anymore how weird
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Nov 8, 2022 23:57
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Crusade was an iconic magic card. That's why espeth had it in her deck and why it was the promo for Juniors (JSS) I garuntee it was still seeing casual play with they banned it
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Nov 8, 2022 23:59
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HootTheOwl posted:Crusade was an iconic magic card. I can assure you that many non racists still play it in EDH
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Nov 9, 2022 00:01
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Charity Porno posted:Invoke Prejudice was gatherer ID 1488 for YEARS, Wizards was aware of the problem, and the entire time they just said "oh geez that's weird, it's too bad there's literally nothing we can do about it, we're slaves to the system!" To be fair, I ran the numbers when things were heating up and while I can’t be absolutely sure (because card numbering that early is a crapshoot and because Gatherer might have been hosed up in some non-public way) it’s not unreasonable for Invoke Prejudice to have been ID 1488. Like as in “organized by release date, then numbered the way mtg sets are numbered today gets you blue cards from that set in the 1400s.”
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Nov 9, 2022 00:04
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Arivia posted:To be fair, I ran the numbers when things were heating up and while I can’t be absolutely sure (because card numbering that early is a crapshoot and because Gatherer might have been hosed up in some non-public way) it’s not unreasonable for Invoke Prejudice to have been ID 1488. Like as in “organized by release date, then numbered the way mtg sets are numbered today gets you blue cards from that set in the 1400s.”
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Nov 9, 2022 00:05
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Arivia posted:To be fair, I ran the numbers when things were heating up and while I can’t be absolutely sure (because card numbering that early is a crapshoot and because Gatherer might have been hosed up in some non-public way) it’s not unreasonable for Invoke Prejudice to have been ID 1488. Like as in “organized by release date, then numbered the way mtg sets are numbered today gets you blue cards from that set in the 1400s.” So this may be true and I'm not denying the veracity of your work, but having the KKK imagery card stay there once it's been pointed out is ridiculous, you can move the non-playable trash card to a different number
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Nov 9, 2022 00:06
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Charity Porno posted:So this may be true and I'm not denying the veracity of your work, but having the KKK imagery card stay there once it's been pointed out is ridiculous, you can move the non-playable trash card to a different number Can you? Gatherer is still held together by spit and bailing wire, it’s possible they didn’t have manual editing set up for the database like that. Like I think Wizards should have fixed it years ago, sure, but they’ve never been good at web tools and “this presents a front end to a database without any way to manually adjust the data” isn’t unthinkable. Anyway the point isn’t to say that it’s acceptable it’s just that people often go “Invoke Prejudice in Gatherer is a sign Wizards is cryptonazis” when there’s also a fairly reasonable, just as well supported reason playing off them being stupid/ineffective/bad at computers.
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Nov 9, 2022 00:11
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that weak excuse holds even less water since they've gone and fixed it since
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Nov 9, 2022 00:13
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Have they said if the Invoke cycle in Kamigawa was in reference to invoke prejudice? Cause the name and mana cost make it seem like it, but that would not be the first card I'd make a cycle referencing.
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Nov 9, 2022 00:16
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flatluigi posted:that weak excuse holds even less water since they've gone and fixed it since Yes, sorry,it’s an explanation of why it might have taken so long to fix instead of saying it’s outright impossible. Believe it or not, that’s fine.
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Nov 9, 2022 00:21
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Arivia posted:Can you? Gatherer is still held together by spit and bailing wire, it’s possible they didn’t have manual editing set up for the database like that. Like I think Wizards should have fixed it years ago, sure, but they’ve never been good at web tools and “this presents a front end to a database without any way to manually adjust the data” isn’t unthinkable. they literally did it the instant they banned those cards, which came like a day or two after allegations of workplace racism was leveled which is an insane pair of coincidences if so
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Nov 9, 2022 00:25
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Charity Porno posted:they literally did it the instant they banned those cards, which came like a day or two after allegations of workplace racism was leveled which is an insane pair of coincidences if so yeah i don't know why someone got probed for calling it "wokewashing" (compare to the far more commonly used term "pinkwashing") when there's been tons of examples of wizards doing that at the cost of actual marginalized people over the last few years that Leperflesh already knows about. the change is okay but wotc is definitely doing the bare minimum to look good.
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Nov 9, 2022 00:28
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Arivia posted:yeah i don't know why someone got probed for calling it "wokewashing" (compare to the far more commonly used term "pinkwashing") when there's been tons of examples of wizards doing that at the cost of actual marginalized people over the last few years that Leperflesh already knows about. the change is okay but wotc is definitely doing the bare minimum to look good. Neither of those are common terms but wokewashing is something that's easy to understand where I've never heard pinkwashing before. What is pink?
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Nov 9, 2022 00:31
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