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Lobsterpillar posted:I thought that it might have been last chapter but now am not so sure that it has been split. I suspect he might have inhaled harmonium and it may be having some allomantic effect on him - what that is is anyone's guess. Perhaps granting full feruchemy instead? That would be fully on theme with Harmony as an ex feruchemist and feruchemy being something between ruin and preservation. fix your spoiler tag
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Nov 9, 2022 17:11
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CapnAndy posted:Yeah, but Vasher is very much under the opinion that Cognitive Shadows are not the original person at all, they're the power that person left behind that -- since "power wants to be alive" and "how something is seen/thinks of itself matters tremendously" are building blocks of this universe -- starts acting like that person, maybe even legitimately not noticing that it's not the real person any more. But definitely in Kelsier's case, and probably in others that are getting classified as Shadows, it provably is the same person. Kelsier never goes Beyond. If he's a shadow, then the definition we have for them is deeply flawed. If he goes on tour again, see if someone in the thread is going and if they'd be willing to go and ask. I know I went to one and when he signed he'd answer one question, and I didn't have a good one. For your spoiler Vasher could be wrong. In Mistborn they thought there was only 10 metals for the longest time, no reason that Vasher doesn't fully understand Cognitive Shadows. He's definitely an expert who has studied it, but he's still just a dude with an opinion at this point.
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Nov 9, 2022 18:24
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He was doing livestreams where people asked questions. You could post on the 17th shard forum and see what those nerds think.
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Nov 9, 2022 20:37
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Yeah, I'm not sure, definitely need a wob on cognitive shadows.
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Nov 9, 2022 20:49
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I'm very excited for The Lost Metal. I've avoided the preview chapters so I can just experience it all when it comes out. I also find it interesting how much I break with the thread on opinions of Sanderson's work. Many people here see "The Emperor's Soul" as one of the finest Sanderson works. I thought it was good, nothing amazing. Others kept hyping up "Bands of Mourning" and yet I found it to be the weakest of the Wax & Wayne books. It wasn't a slog like much of "Well of Ascension" was, but I thought "Bands of Mourning" was a tremendous let down coming off "Shadows of Self."
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Nov 9, 2022 23:59
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there's some WoB that he's leaving 'are cognitive shadows actually the original people, or are they just a reanimated corpse of their astral body' ambiguous, along with most of the 'is there a true afterlife' type questions, since it's more interesting if there's in-universe debate and uncertainty for this kind of question
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Nov 10, 2022 03:44
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Brutor Fartknocker posted:Yeah, I'm not sure, definitely need a wob on cognitive shadows. There's been a ton. Cognitive shadows [realmatic theory] are created when a highly invested creature dies and the investiture fills in their absent aspect in the cognitive plane. He's compared it to a petrified tree or a fossil, can't remember which.
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Nov 10, 2022 04:32
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Potato Salad posted:There's been a ton. Cognitive shadows [realmatic theory] are created when a highly invested creature dies and the investiture fills in their absent aspect in the cognitive plane. He's compared it to a petrified tree or a fossil, can't remember which.
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Nov 10, 2022 05:59
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There is at least a difference between how they are each created. The Heralds and the Fused all retain the same consciousness because they were directly powered by a Shard but they seem warped in their own way. Kelsier was, for a bit, actually the Shard Preservation. He was a Vessel, just like the Lord Ruler or Ati or whatnot. Endowment seems to do her revival thing with the specific sticking point being that she wipes their memories. I figure Vasher is kinda like the fused in that he has been hosed with by a shard but instead of just keeping them angry and crazy like the fused or bound and shackled like the heralds Vasher is endowed with a new memory to serve Endowments purpose. Kelsier WAS a portion of god as you can kinda see when the Lord Ruler dies and pops up Cognitive like he was in life and just goes I'm done. Both of them have a bit more mojo in the soul than Vasher. They remain themselves because at one point they were way more than just a Cognitive Shadow. There is also Threnody which is it's own thing. I would love to see Awakened Silver. drat it, thinking more about it Kelsier also bathed in the Well of Ascension before Ascending which probably helped quite a bit as well. He literally bathed and was suffused at different times by the essence of Ruin and Preservation and then ascended to become the concept of Preservation. I'd be stunned if he could go Beyond at this point. TGG fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 06:18
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Mordiceius posted:I'm very excited for The Lost Metal. I've avoided the preview chapters so I can just experience it all when it comes out. I agree. It certainly wasn't bad, but it's one of the weaker Sanderson endings I've read though I went into it thinking it was the last of a trilogy, which makes TLM that much more exciting. I've avoided all spoilers and am gonna try and knock out reading Project Hail Mary before it drops next week. Seems like most people who have read the preview chapters of TLM really like where it's going, which is a relief to read.
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Nov 10, 2022 06:29
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Louisgod posted:I agree. It certainly wasn't bad, but it's one of the weaker Sanderson endings I've read though I went into it thinking it was the last of a trilogy, which makes TLM that much more exciting. I've avoided all spoilers and am gonna try and knock out reading Project Hail Mary before it drops next week. Seems like most people who have read the preview chapters of TLM really like where it's going, which is a relief to read. My main problem with Bands of Mourning is that it felt like every character's major "moment" was immediately undone. Marasi gets shot? It's okay. She's immediately fixed by MeLaan. Wax dies? JK. He's okay. Wayne uses a gun? It's okay. He knew he wouldn't kill them. Also the twist of Wax's sister being evil was... incredibly obvious. Since The Alloy of Law was written as very standalone, it makes Shadows of Self, Bands of Mourning, and The Lost Metal feel more like a trilogy and Bands of Mourning comes off feeling very "middle chapter."
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Nov 10, 2022 06:39
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Mordiceius posted:Also the twist of Wax's sister being evil was... incredibly obvious. I encourage anyone who was surprised by this to go read some Agatha Christie novels, to prepare for life after high school. I'm kind of excited to have started following this thread as a new book is coming out, really looking forward to having someone explain whatever obscure nonsense happens in the last ten chapters. Perhaps I will then comprehend the events and their significance within a day or two instead of months, making me look really smart and not at all annoying and pedantic in front of my partner 
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Nov 10, 2022 08:09
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CK07 posted:I encourage anyone who was surprised by this to go read some Agatha Christie novels, to prepare for life after high school. oh it's simple, the entire alloy era plot was an elaborate heist for Hoid to obtain the final dragon ball
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Nov 10, 2022 08:29
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CapnAndy posted:Yeah, that's what Vasher says, which is my whole point. That does not apply to Kelsier, or at least, it shouldn't. He never goes Beyond and we're in his head when he dies and there's no indication that he has even the slightest break in conciousness -- and Preservation certainly talks to him like he's the real Kelsier. So, original soul, original mind, and while whatever they did for his new body, it's not like the power rushed in to make him a new one. He doesn't fit the definition. And what's more, under that definition, cognitive shadows shouldn't have souls. So how are the Heralds fading to Beyond when they get their Connections cut? I don't agree that it's as open and shut a case as you say it its. It's entirely possible that his soul went to the beyond but that it's not an obvious process, like when normal souls left for the beyond earlier in the book. Because he was investing himself at the time to prevent that from happening, so that difference might make the process look different and it might be entirely unnoticeable both to external observers and the cognitive shadow itself that the soul went to the beyond, becaue the space it left was immediately filled with investiture. . To me the whole thing is still an open question and I think Brandon wants it like that, though I have my own ideas about it. Also are the heralds fading to the beyond? I don't remember that, which book? His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Nov 10, 2022 |
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Nov 10, 2022 12:35
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His Divine Shadow posted:Also are the heralds fading to the beyond? I don't remember that, which book?
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Nov 10, 2022 18:45
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His Divine Shadow posted:I don't agree that it's as open and shut a case as you say it its. It's entirely possible that his soul went to the beyond but that it's not an obvious process, like when normal souls left for the beyond earlier in the book. Because he was investing himself at the time to prevent that from happening, so that difference might make the process look different and it might be entirely unnoticeable both to external observers and the cognitive shadow itself that the soul went to the beyond, becaue the space it left was immediately filled with investiture. . To me the whole thing is still an open question and I think Brandon wants it like that, though I have my own ideas about it. Basically all of the ancient immortal cognitive shadow type beings are shown to be insane, so it's either a commentary on what the author things immortality would do to somebody, or it's a commentary on what happens in the Cosmere when you clumsily hack reality to cheat death.
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Nov 10, 2022 18:54
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Infinite Karma posted:Pure speculation Given the religious subtext to the whole Cosmere cosmology (with the physical and cognitive and spiritual realms and how the influence the world, Adonalsium's existence and shattering, etc), I'd guess that there's some kind of sanity-maintaining thing that souls do in the link between a person and their multiple realmatic aspects. Kind of like how you lose your mind if you don't sleep, if you don't have a soul to refresh your cognitive aspect from the wellspring of your spiritual aspect, it starts to degrade. I just got through the relevant part in RoW again. To quote: Zahel: "Be wary of those Fused, kid. The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We’re spren masquerading as men. That’s why she takes our memories. She knows we aren’t the actual people who died, but something else given a corpse to inhabit.…” Souls in fiction do sometimes operate in a moral capacity, determining our ability to feel empathy or to know right from wrong. If Zahel is right, I don't think that is what's going on here. It's more just that mortals are not meant to live this long. Read any good existential story about being a vampire, like Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire. Humans change, immortality is the refusal to change. It's just piling up eons upon eons of regrets, pains, sorrows. "Death is rest for the soul." I initially zeroed in on this quote because someone once asked me if Kelsier's current activities make me rethink my position on if he was a good person or not. I think Zahel makes it very clear that a long life in this form changes you radically. The leader of the Ghostbloods is emphatically not the same person who took down the Lord-Ruler and I mean that in a literal sense, not just that he's changed.
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Nov 10, 2022 19:55
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Infinite Karma posted:Pure speculation Given the religious subtext to the whole Cosmere cosmology (with the physical and cognitive and spiritual realms and how the influence the world, Adonalsium's existence and shattering, etc), I'd guess that there's some kind of sanity-maintaining thing that souls do in the link between a person and their multiple realmatic aspects. Kind of like how you lose your mind if you don't sleep, if you don't have a soul to refresh your cognitive aspect from the wellspring of your spiritual aspect, it starts to degrade. When Dalinar first does his ‘I am Unity” trick and unites the three realms, that briefly fixes Taln, he becomes fully lucid for a while. So getting separated from one or more realms definitely seems to create mental issues, but also seems reversible.
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Nov 10, 2022 20:08
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NikkolasKing posted:I just got through the relevant part in RoW again. To quote:
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Nov 10, 2022 20:16
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CapnAndy posted:There, right where I bolded, that's what I can't get past. Kelsier is absolutely the actual person who died, whose entire problem was that he was not given a corpse to inhabit and had to go manufacture one for himself. He's not the same thing as a Returned, and the evidence suggests that Heralds aren't either, because if you're a spren masquerading as a man, you could be trapped in a gemstone. can’t he be a very close, but not perfect, imitation of the actual soul? The imprint lasted longer than a usual person because being Mistborn, being in well of ascension, holding the power of a shard temporarily, etc. It’s like that super detailed fossil they found of a stegosaurus that almost looked real rather than something that vaguely looks like a fossil. Maybe the actual soul of Kelsier went to the Beyond and the cognitive part stayed behind long enough to “fossilize” into a near perfect replication of Kelsier? Or maybe I’m just drunk and need to sleep.
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Nov 11, 2022 05:14
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His Divine Shadow posted:I don't agree that it's as open and shut a case as you say it its. It's entirely possible that his soul went to the beyond but that it's not an obvious process, like when normal souls left for the beyond earlier in the book. Because he was investing himself at the time to prevent that from happening, so that difference might make the process look different and it might be entirely unnoticeable both to external observers and the cognitive shadow itself that the soul went to the beyond, becaue the space it left was immediately filled with investiture. . To me the whole thing is still an open question and I think Brandon wants it like that, though I have my own ideas about it. Its entirely possible - secret history spoilers That when Preservation "preserved" him by locking him in Preservations shard pool that Kelsier's soul was catapulted into the Beyond and it was a Cognitive shadow that awoke in the pool. He gets shoved into the light of the pool and loses consciousness for a moment. But I think there are more grey steps between fully alive, and fully dead than just cognitive shadows. At the very least we have examples that there are many different ways to manifest as a cognitive shadow so Sanderson may be using it as a catchall to dodge RAFO questions. Since when have we had one of his systems that only has a single aspect to it?
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Nov 11, 2022 05:26
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e: didn't see that before I posted this. Kelsier jumped into Preservations perpendicularity to keep from fading, he was then filled with investiture. I see it as entirely possible his soul could have kept fading but the investiture kept occupying the same space so it wasn't an obvious fading like when other souls went to the beyond. He was also conscious the whole time, so even though one might say the soul moved on, can you at the same time say that still isn't the real Kelsier? There was continuity of consciousness. Maybe the 'soul' energy that left wasn't actually conscious or the original person. Perhaps this is a ship of theseus analogy. I'm also not sure cognitive shadows don't have connections left to the spiritual plane even if their souls moved on. I think they might have that, I think the issue is more a question of the investiture now making up their 'soul' is having an impact, perhaps depending on from whom they got the investiture, plus just living very long. Hoid seems to have solved part of those issues too. I think the answer might not be a clean black & white division e: Oh Kelsier lost consciousness temporarily?
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Nov 11, 2022 05:34
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His Divine Shadow posted:e: didn't see that before I posted this. To quote Secret History exactly Very well. Be Preserved, Kelsier. Survivor. Something shoved him forward, and Kelsier merged with the light. Moments later he blinked awake. But yeah the Ship of Theseus analogy is a good one.
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Nov 11, 2022 05:39
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I think that "actually the Kelsier we see isn't the real Kelsier and it's just a replica of him" would be lame as gently caress. So I'm going to ignore that theory.
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Nov 11, 2022 06:56
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Might just come down to whether you consider a person's mind or a person's soul to be "them".
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Nov 11, 2022 07:39
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Mordiceius posted:I think that "actually the Kelsier we see isn't the real Kelsier and it's just a replica of him" would be lame as gently caress. So I'm going to ignore that theory. It would rather completely remove the emotional weight of (SH spoilers) him and Vin getting a proper farewell together. I just say SH Kelsier was still him but he isn't him anymeer after all this time and god knows what else has happened to him that we don't know about.
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Nov 11, 2022 11:57
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My thoughts are more in the vein of what is you is the "pattern" or the information that makes up you, not the substrate the pattern is imprinted onto.
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Nov 11, 2022 12:30
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M_Gargantua posted:To quote Secret History exactly So Kelsier is now a transporter clone? For all intents and purposes the same person, just a copy. All hail Thomas Kelsier. Also, since Hoid was able to hit him and we know he has a magical geas against violence something is up there too
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Nov 11, 2022 15:24
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My copy of The Lost Metal just got delivered. Time to binge read.
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Nov 11, 2022 20:12
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TheMadMilkman posted:My copy of The Lost Metal just got delivered. Time to binge read. Oh poo poo. I didn't realize it was already out. I thought it was much later this month. Edit: nevermind. looks like yours just arrived early. Also - this one seems a bit chonkier than the previous books, looking at the audio book time. Over 18 hours for the audio book.
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Nov 11, 2022 21:16
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Mordiceius posted:Oh poo poo. I didn't realize it was already out. I thought it was much later this month. I ordered a signed copy, and I live about 45 minutes north of Sanderson, so shipping time was very short.
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Nov 11, 2022 22:03
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TheMadMilkman posted:I ordered a signed copy, and I live about 45 minutes north of Sanderson, so shipping time was very short. I'm insanely jealous!
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Nov 12, 2022 02:14
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Torrannor posted:I'm insanely jealous! Dont be. Living in Utah is not worth getting a book a few days early.
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Nov 12, 2022 05:47
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Regardless, I’m about 2/3rds through, and I can’t wait to read everyone’s reactions. There’s… a lot to consider.
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Nov 12, 2022 12:10
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I won’t post anything until others have the book (I suck at not clicking on spoilers, and I don’t want to ruin things for others like me), but drat. That was an interesting book.
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Nov 13, 2022 06:48
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Ugh, so jealous. I'm not going to get anything done Tuesday.
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Nov 13, 2022 07:44
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ROW spoilers So Rayse (the vessel) was struggling with Odium (the Shard) and being reminded of this made me think of something else which has been on my mind. This is the "True Desolation"...but all anyone ever talks about is that the Fused want to occupy, not destroy. They are, in some cases, better, more benign rulers than the humans were. This is nothing like the civilization eradicating fights of old. Could this be why his hold on the Shard weakened? His goal is not to destroy but to build - build an army to scourge the Cosmere and the Shard wants obliteration and it wants it now.
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Nov 14, 2022 01:26
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M_Gargantua posted:To quote Secret History exactly Of course, "do the Shadows have souls, can one soul be connected to multiple minds" is sort of a hanging question right now, isn't it. NikkolasKing posted:ROW spoilers
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Nov 14, 2022 19:21
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My eBook just downloaded, so time for me to stop speculating for a few days (Australian timezone, so I might have it a little early than most).
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Nov 14, 2022 19:48
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Tunzie posted:My eBook just downloaded, so time for me to stop speculating for a few days (Australian timezone, so I might have it a little early than most). Where did you buy?
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Nov 14, 2022 19:54
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