paddyboat posted:

They did?
https://twitter.com/footballramble/status/1592578792383709184?s=46&t=xfYHcfj9pNyV1lawh1m4-g

Jose posted:

Off to a good start

https://twitter.com/RasmusTantholdt/status/1592636983251464193?t=5UaR5o8e78DO4RbtJpG9-g&s=19

BrigadierSensible posted:

Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly are the Qatari government/royalty trying to do here.

Because with other "sportswashing" type poo poo, they are exercises in PR. You put on the happy face. You lie about how "progressive" and international you are. You gladhand, bribe, and soft cushion all the foreign journalists/visitors so that you put forward to image you want.

You don't manhandle and threaten international journalists on live TV, and threaten to smash the camera. Because this does not make Qatar look like the open accessible friendly country that they want it to look like.

Are the Qatari authorities that incompetent they can't even put on a smiley facade for the couple of weeks that the world gives a poo poo about Qatar?

Eau de MacGowan posted:

fully expect to see tommy robinson and the like repost this as "ACTUAL FOOTAGE OF BRITAIN, 2028"

the sex ghost posted:

Qatari authorities bad but it would be funny if gary lineker got fined and deported for doing a mean tweet

BrigadierSensible posted:

Please forgive my ignorance, but what exactly are the Qatari government/royalty trying to do here.

…

You don't manhandle and threaten international journalists on live TV, and threaten to smash the camera. Because this does not make Qatar look like the open accessible friendly country that they want it to look like.

harperdc posted:

Top management can say one thing, but the people on the ground apparently haven’t changed how they operate normally. I’m guessing that gets changed right quick, but we’ll see.

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1592792367966588928

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1592595985091682305

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Chatting to a guy at work today who's from Kerala and says it's absolutely true that they have big groups of football mad fans who pick an international team to follow and even have fights during major tournaments. Doesn't explain the identical shirts though.

Mickolution posted:

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1592792367966588928

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1592573669691518979
https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1592595985091682305

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1592792367966588928

KazigluBey posted:

Saw this thread in one of the replies, https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1581212669637369858 some stats buff uni prof saying the 6500 number is bunk? Any idea on if this is just sponsored interference or just someone going off because it's a topic close to their area of specialty?

Teach posted:

It's a good headline, but (thanks, Wikipedia!) in 2017 Qatar's population was 2.6million, with only 300,000 Qataris. The rest are ex-pats, and the biggest group of that number is south Asians - people from India, Pakistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka.

That's 2.3 million people working in Qatar as economic migrants. And I was one of them for twenty years.

The UK overall death rate is nearly 1% p.a, so 9.something deaths per 1000 people per year. There will be a lot of expats dying in Qatar. I was a teacher there for two decades and my school lost three teachers. That's not down to the world cup.

Yes, the working conditions for most expats are terrible, yes they're badly paid and treated as disposable. But it would be weird if there weren't any ex-pat deaths.

(Edit - I know that the ex-pat communities in Qatar don't map one to one with the populations at home - they're overwhelmingly male, for example) but you see what I mean.)

vyelkin posted:

The UK death rate may be nearly 1% p.a., but if you account for the demographic that makes up migrant labourers (say, men in their 20s and 30s) it would be much, much lower. You can't generalize from death rates including 80-year-olds dying of cancer to say that 20-year-olds dropping dead after 14-hour days on desert construction sites is normal.

KazigluBey posted:

Saw this thread in one of the replies, https://twitter.com/marcowenjones/status/1581212669637369858 some stats buff uni prof saying the 6500 number is bunk? Any idea on if this is just sponsored interference or just someone going off because it's a topic close to their area of specialty?

Teach posted:

Sure, but then be fair - what's the UK annual death rate for construction workers? (I don't know. This might reflect worse on Qatar.)

Many of them are from the poorest parts of their home countries. They would have better health care in Qatar, many of them, than at home.

Just in the interests of balance. I think it's a mistake that Qatar has got the world cup.

quote:

Fact check: How many people died for the Qatar World Cup?
Jan D. Walter | Matt Ford
5 hours ago5 hours ago
As the World Cup in Qatar draws closer, criticism is mounting. Human rights activists, politicians, fans and media speak of 6,500, even 15,000, alleged deaths in relation to the tournament. But are the numbers correct?

Since Qatar won the rights to host the 2022 World Cup there has been a debate over its treatment of foreign workers and the human cost of the event. There are various estimates of how many workers have died on the World Cup construction sites in Qatar, but the true figure is difficult to ascertain.

This fact check looks at figures published by FIFA, the Qatari authorities, human rights groups and the media, which have consistently been referred to as fact, misleading or even false. The authors are aware that these figures only convey a vague impression of the suffering allegedly endured by migrant workers in Qatar.

Claim: "The World Cup in Qatar has cost the lives of 6,500 - even as many as 15,000 - migrant workers."

DW fact check: False

The widely reported figure of 15,021 migrant worker deaths in connection with the World Cup in Qatar originates in a 2021 Amnesty International report. Just as widely reported is the figure of 6,500, first published by The Guardian in February 2021.

https://twitter.com/iMiaSanMia/status/1588908826203680770

Although these figures have been used to back up this claim multiple times since these reports were published, neither Amnesty International nor The Guardian have ever claimed that all these people died on stadium construction sites, or indeed even in the explicit context of the 2022 World Cup. Both figures refer merely to non-Qataris of various nationalities and in various occupations who have died in Qatar in the last decade.

The figure of 15,021 quoted by Amnesty International was obtained from official statistics from the Qatari authorities themselves, and refers to the number of foreigners who died in the country between 2010 and 2019. Between 2011 and 2020, it was 15,799.

15,000 dead - but not only for the World Cup's sake
This includes not only poorly-qualified construction workers, security personnel or gardeners who may or may not have been employed on World Cup related projects; but also foreign teachers, doctors, engineers and other business people.

Many did come from developing countries such as Nepal and Bangladesh, while others arrived from middle or high income nations. The Qatari statistics don't allow any further, more detailed breakdown.

As for The Guardian, journalist Pete Pattisson and his team based their total figure of 6,751 on official statistics from the governments of Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, whose citizens make up a significant proportion of migrant workers in Qatar – in particular poorly-qualified workers.

Qatar does not deny either figure. Indeed, in response to The Guardian, Qatar's Government Communications Office said: "Although each loss of life is upsetting, the mortality rate among these communities is within the expected range for the size and demographics of the population." But is that true?

Claim: "The mortality rate among these communities is within the expected range for the size and demographics of the population."

DW fact check: Misleading

According to the Qatari government, 1,500 deaths per year among two million people is a normal average mortality rate.

Firstly, it should be stated that, according to the World Health Organization, general mortality rates for migrant workers in their home countries are actually greater than among those working in Qatar. In fact, even the mortality rate among Qatari citizens is higher than that among migrant workers in Qatar.

However, given that migrant workers in Qatar are not representative of the general populations in their home countries or in Qatar, such figures are misleading.

Migrant workers in Qatar are fundamentally healthy upon arrival
For instance, the proportion of small children and elderly people – demographic groups with the highest mortality rates – among migrant workers in Qatar is clearly incomparable with that among a general population of any country.

Furthermore, migrant workers in Qatar, whatever their background or job, are generally healthy people who have to pass a whole range of medical checks in order to obtain a Qatari visa, filtering out potential applicants with infectious diseases such as AIDS/HIV, hepatitis B and C, syphilis or tuberculosis.

Such statistics also don't include migrant workers who pass away after returning to their home countries. In Nepal in the last 10 years, for instance, authorities have recorded a significant increase in the number of fatal cases of kidney failure among men aged 20-50 – many of whom had just returned from working in the Middle East.

The hard work in the Gulf weather conditions, combined with low quantity and low quality drinking water, as reported by those affected, would explain this, according to health experts in Nepal.

Claim: "There have only been three work-related deaths on World Cup stadium construction sites"

DW fact check: Misleading

Both FIFA and the Qatari World Cup organizing committee insist that only three people have died as a direct result of their work on World Cup construction sites. FIFA and Qatar's official definition of "work-related deaths" refers to fatalities on construction sites for the seven brand new stadiums, as well as training facilities Qatar has built in the last decade. The three include two Nepalese men at the Al Janoub Stadium in Al Wakrah and one Briton at the Khalifa International Stadium in Al Rayyan.

Widening the definition to "non-work-related deaths" not directly linked to construction work, officials acknowledge 37 further fatalities, including, for instance, two Indians and an Egyptian who died in a road traffic accident while traveling from work to their accommodation in November 2019.

However, the awarding of the World Cup to Qatar has unleashed a veritable construction boom in the gulf state which goes beyond just the stadiums. A whole range of projects linked to the tournament have been undertaken, including new motorways, hotels, a new metro system, an airport expansion and an entire new city in Lusail, just north of Doha. Indeed, even at the peak of construction, FIFA claims that only slightly more than 30,000 workers were actually employed on specific World Cup sites.

The official acknowledgement of three deaths, therefore, discounts fatalities which may have occurred on other construction sites which likely wouldn't have existed without the World Cup. It also fails to take into account thousands of documented cases of migrant workers dying in their accommodation outside of shift hours, for which no adequate explanations have been provided.

According to research by The Guardian and Amnesty International, the latter using figures provided by the government of Bangladesh, Qatari doctors ascribe around 70% of deaths to "natural deaths" due to acute cardio-respiratory failures.

Epidemiologically, however, heart and breathing failures are not causes of death, but rather results. The cause of a cardiac arrest could be a heart attack or other irregularity, while respiratory failure could be caused by an allergic reaction or poisoning.

But no such explanations are given. Indeed, in a 2022 documentary series by German public broadcaster ARD, Qatari doctors even report being forced to fill out death certificates as such.

As early as 2014, in an independent report commissioned by the Qatari government, the global law firm DLA Piper criticized this practice and "strongly recommended" that the government "permit autopsies or post-mortems in cases of unexpected or sudden death." In late 2021, the International Labor Organization (ILO) also criticized the lack of adequate documentation of accidents and causes of death.

According to experts interviewed by Amnesty International, precise causes of death go undetermined in only 1% of cases in "properly managed health systems." Furthermore, invasive autopsies are rarely necessary. In around 85% of cases, verbal autopsies involving witnesses or acquaintances of the deceased are sufficient.

Human rights organizations such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and Fairsquare regularly speak to such witnesses, whose reports suggest that heat stroke, exhaustion or even minor illnesses which go untreated are at the root of many sudden unexplained deaths.

In conclusion, figures referring to fatalities in connection with the 2022 World Cup vary depending on definition, including where migrant workers came from, where and when they died, and whether their deaths can be described as work-related or not. However, given the inconsistencies and shortcomings in Qatar's own official data, a concrete conclusion is impossible to ascertain, which in turn raises the question as to why exactly the Qatari authorities are unable to provide reliable information.

https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-many-people-have-died-building-the-qatar-world-cup/a-63763713

quote:

World Cup 2022: The difficulty with estimating the number of deaths on Qatar construction sites
By Gary Dagorn and Iris Derœux
Published on November 15, 2022 at 15h26, updated at 15h32 on November 15, 202

IN DEPTHThe estimate that 6,500 workers have died on World Cup construction sites in Qatar is a number that is quoted often, but the true figure is difficult to ascertain.

In early 2021, UK newspaper The Guardian published a detailed investigation revealing that at least 6,500 migrant workers in Qatar had died between 2011 and 2020. Since then, this figure of 6,500 deaths has become central to the criticism of the 2022 World Cup organization, and many have quoted it thinking that it corresponds to the number of workers who have died on the construction sites of the competition's stadiums, or more broadly on World Cup construction sites. However, this is not quite the case.

A census of immigrants who have died in Qatar
The Guardian's investigation, published in February 2021, focused on non-Qatari residents who had died in the country between 2011 and the end of 2020. Using death records produced by the embassies or government departments of five countries with large numbers of nationals in Qatar (India, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Pakistan), the newspaper counted 6,751 confirmed deaths of workers during this 10-year period – noting that this number may have been significantly underestimated, as it did not include nationals of other countries (Philippines, Kenya etc) who were also numerous in Qatar. Deaths during the last months of 2020 and 2021 were also not included in the data collected by The Guardian.

Among the causes of these deaths, one predominated: death by natural causes, accounting for 70% of the causes cited for Indian, Nepalese and Bangladeshi workers. This was partly because no autopsy or medical examination had been performed to determine the actual cause of death.

This followed an initial investigation by the same newspaper into Qatar's preparations for the World Cup, published back in 2013, describing situations of "forced labor, a form of modern slavery," which led to several dozen deaths over the summer. It documented the daily lives of Nepalese workers on the construction sites of Lusail – a new Qatari city built north of Doha, intended to house the largest of the seven stadiums constructed – whose papers had been confiscated, who were not paid their wages, and who were housed in insanitary conditions. The same year, Le Monde also denounced the working conditions of immigrants in Qatar.

The limitations of embassy records
This figure obviously had its limits. The records of foreign embassies consulted by The Guardian almost never specified the age of the deceased, the place of death or the sector in which they had worked. This led Max Tuñon, director of the Qatar branch of the International Labour Organization (ILO), to say that some of these deaths may not be construction workers but office workers or unemployed people.

Unsurprisingly, Qatar has strongly disputed these figures, claiming that only 37 deaths have occurred among workers on stadium construction sites: three have been attributed to work accidents and 34 to other causes (10 of which involved men aged between 20 and 40).

Deaths at locations other than stadium construction sites
In its communication, the Qatari government generally included only the renovation or construction sites of the eight competition stadiums, which represent just 2% of the workers employed in the construction industry in Qatar.

But much of the accommodation and public transport network (such as the Doha subway) would probably not have been built if Qatar was not hosting the World Cup, which is expected to welcome 1.2 million people to a country of 330,000 citizens.

NGOs believe that the spectacular construction boom in the country over the past decade has been largely attributable to FIFA's decision to award it the competition, especially since "the timetable for the infrastructure program in Qatar is entirely wedded to the World Cup delivery date," said Tim Noonan, campaign director for the International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC), interviewed by the BBC in 2015.

The figure of 6,500 deaths has not been echoed by the main NGOs closely monitoring the situation of migrant workers in Qatar and the Gulf states, who instead have referred to "several thousand deaths" of migrant workers, an order of magnitude they believe is consistent with their observations on the ground and the research they have been conducting in the emirate for more than ten years. The ITUC had estimated in 2013 that 4,000 workers would have died by the time the World Cup kicked off in November 2022.

Official statistics are inconsistent
The Qatari government has released official statistics on the subject annually. While their reliability or completeness is unknown, they may provide some clues.

According to the data, 12,412 immigrant men died between 2011 and 2020, nearly half of whom (5,935) were between 20 and 50 years old, which is relatively young. The Qataris explained to The Guardian that the number of deaths was proportional to the size of the immigrant population, undisclosed by the authorities but estimated at 2.5 million in 2020, an argument repeated by the Indian authorities, who believe that the mortality rate is that which is expected of such a large population.

This is not entirely accurate, as these young men had been selected following a thorough medical examination, as Mr. Noonan pointed out in 2015. "Qatar requires them to undergo a medical exam to detect previous medical problems, so it's like comparing apples and pears," he said.

Deaths of young adults
The over-representation of these young adults is particularly clear in the age-specific death data. In 2020, 25% of the immigrant men who died in the country were between 20 and 40 years old, while this same age group accounted for 10% of the deaths recorded among Qatari men. The gap was even greater in 2012, when 20-40 year olds accounted for almost 40% of those immigrants who had died, compared to 12% for Qataris.

Read more Subscribers only Qatar World Cup: The reasons behind the widespread criticism
The same trend was observed among 40-60 year olds. Their share varied between 20% and 26% among Qatari deaths, while it represented between 35% and 42% of immigrant deaths.

The same observations can be made when the demographic weight of each age group in the respective populations of Qatari and immigrant men is brought to bear. Among Qatari men, the vast majority of deaths occur in the over-55 age group, whereas they represent a minority in the country's rather young population. The demographics of immigrant men are different, but so is their mortality: the majority of deaths are under 55 years of age (about 60%), and one in five immigrant deaths is between 35 and 44 years of age.

The 'wet globe thermometer'
These many deaths can be explained in large part to exposure to the dust and extreme heat of the Gulf climate during much of the year, which makes outdoor work very difficult and hazardous to health. Temperatures can frequently exceed 40°C in the summer and remain above 30°C for at least six months of the year. To protect construction workers, Qatar has banned outdoor work from 11:30am to 3pm. This measure, which is in reality infrequently enforced, is also grossly inadequate to prevent harm to workers' health, as analysis published by The Guardian in October 2019 has shown.

The newspaper calculated the so-called wet bulb thermometer (or WBGT) temperatures – an index that measures the combined effects of heat, solar radiation and air humidity on the human body. If it exceeds 28°C, it is considered dangerous. In Qatar, this value is frequently exceeded, especially in August when it reaches 28-30°C for almost the entire day. From mid-June onwards, temperatures are so high that it becomes dangerous to work outside for more than 15 minutes an hour for most of the day. However, countless workers have testified to working days of at least 10 hours, sometimes 12, in defiance of safety regulations.

Cardiac arrest and kidney problems
In a study published in July 2019 in the medical journal Cardiology, an international team of researchers noted a strong correlation between temperatures and cardiovascular events recorded among Nepalese migrant workers in Qatar. "The pronounced mortality from cardiovascular events during hot seasons is most likely due to intense heat stress," said the researchers, who estimated that about 35% of fatal cardiac arrests could have been prevented by better protecting workers from heat.

"Young men have a very low incidence of cardiac arrest," Dr. Dan Atar, a professor of cardiology at Oslo University Hospital and co-author of the study, told The Guardian, especially since "these workers are recruited in their countries partly for their good health, and yet hundreds of them die every year in Qatar."

Immigrant workers exposed to this heat could also develop severe chronic kidney disease (called CKDnt), which disproportionately affects men in material handling positions in construction. In a short publication from March 2020, a team of Nepalese researchers noted these systematic impairments in a cohort of 44 Nepalese workers monitored for six months during 2019, three-quarters of whom were returning from Gulf countries (and a quarter from Malaysia). While the medical causes of these kidney diseases were still undetermined, excessive working hours and lack of access to necessary medical care appeared to have played a decisive role.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decod..._6004375_8.html

vyelkin posted:

In addition to the numbers ilmucche posted, DW and Le Monde have recent articles not making that exact comparison, but addressing claims like these, and they tend to find that the Qatari authorities are significantly overstating how natural or proportional the number of migrant worker deaths are.



Nobody disputes that the high-end numbers aren't literally 100% workers who died at a stadium construction site, but widespread reporting, NGO investigation, and academic study of the issues keeps on finding that a disproportionate amount of migrant workers are dying, and that even the high numbers might be underestimates because they don't include groups like Nepali workers who returned home and shortly thereafter died of kidney failure almost certainly related to their arduous work in the desert. I'm sorry but I really don't think your experience as a foreign teacher is comparable, nor do I think it's fair to assume the workers were already unhealthy (due to being poor) and would get better healthcare in Qatar than they would in their home countries, when these people dying in disproportionately high numbers were selected because of their health and fitness to ensure they would be efficient workers.

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1592792367966588928

fast cars loose anus posted:

Love to have the WC in a country where it must be explicitly stated that pregnant women can receive medical care, or any woman can report sexual assault, and be free of accusations from law enforcement

CapnAndy posted:

Buddy, I got some bad news for you about the 2026 WC in that case.

Jiro posted:

God it's going to be the Sochi Winter Olympics all over again isn't it? Just sad devoid poo poo show, with a thin curtain trying to hide the horror.


In other words a WWE Saudi show, only way way longer.

Jose posted:

Can someone gas that stupid MLS thread I keep nearly clicking on trying to read world cup threads

psyer posted:

https://twitter.com/GrantWahl/status/1592792367966588928

BrigadierSensible posted:

I think this stuff is here so the Qataris can have it documented that they are officially going to "play nice".

NinpoEspiritoSanto posted:

A Danish TV crew already had their kit smashed so it's not like we're just re-telling ghost stories that never happen

Mickolution posted:

Nothing was smashed in that incident, as far as I know. They were just interrupted and the speed with which the apology came makes me think those guys weren't following the guidelines. This sounds like I'm defending Qatar and I'm not, at all. I just don't think they'll be arresting people for having a few too many or bringing rainbow flags to a game. Once the tournament is over, then they'll deal with locals who act/speak out once most people have stopped giving a poo poo.