|
Russian Bear posted:So what new cars can you buy that don't have telematics always connected? Low end stellantis vehicles for example, mid to high range is likely going to have it.
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 22:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 22:33 |
|
|
redgubbinz posted:It is guaranteed to fail because there's no real way to show off to other road users/neighbors that you bought the extra special elite mercedes battlepass No problem just replace the trim badges with OLED screens and charge extra for that too.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 22:30
|
|
|
Bandire posted:No problem just replace the trim badges with OLED screens and charge extra for that too. https://twitter.com/ScarbsTech/status/1583081786573144064
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 22:47
|
|
|
I'm sure someone who is literally running for their life from a violent partner is going to be just fine with only having to wait 5 seconds to press "skip ads" before being able to start their car and GTFO as the window is being smashed out.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2022 23:22
|
|
|
Sab669 posted:I also wish I could pay $100/mo to use a different config file that's physically already on my hardware the idea that you're only paying for hardware is pretty ridiculous at this point
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 04:03
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the idea that you're only paying for hardware is pretty ridiculous at this point What are you paying for then? What is it that needs a constant subscription to support this unlocked potential?
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 04:35
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the idea that you're only paying for hardware is pretty ridiculous at this point The paying for software reasoning only makes sense if they actually continuously improved the car software...
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 04:45
|
|
|
opengl posted:I was behind one in traffic the other day for a bit, it was pretty bad. So much cladding even from the rear. A-bloo-bloo-bloo  I'm a little baby and I'm upset that nobody wants to form entire new metal body panels to make my limited run halo car more aerodynamic. Waaah waaah waaah. I'm crying because nobody wants to make me a special treat just for me. A-bloo-bloo-bloo
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 05:37
|
|
|
Speleothing posted:A-bloo-bloo-bloo Source your quotes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 05:40
|
|
|
Plastic bits? Sure fine, its light, it doesn't rust, i dont care that it is plastic. But paint it assholes
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 06:46
|
|
|
taqueso posted:Plastic bits? Sure fine, its light, it doesn't rust, i dont care that it is plastic. But paint it assholes I’ve heard that painting the plastic cladding reduces the aerodynamics. Dunno if that’s true, just an anecdote.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 06:48
|
|
|
KakerMix posted:What are you paying for then? What is it that needs a constant subscription to support this unlocked potential? Some of the remote access via app features and vehicle tracking stuff, yeah I'll give them that, that they are running a service connecting your app to the car in a secure (lol no they aren't) manner. That's fine, I understand there's on-going infrastructure costs involved there. Other than that, they're doing it cos they can. I might be OK with it if it were one-off payments, so I could add options the previous owner didn't, but drat, it's a lot of nickel and diming on some really expensive flagship vehicles.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 08:07
|
|
|
Sagebrush posted:Except the cars are already continuously online, so every time you start up they'll make a DRM check to a central server to verify what options you have enabled, This is exactly the fun that guy who bought a Tesla with a Tesla installed longer range battery had. He bought it second hand off a guy who had a problem and Tesla only had a longer range battery available so installed this for him as a mark of good faith. The car was 'unlocked' to use this new battery's extra range etc. New guy buys it and after a while he notices it's down on range. Turns out it had been software gimped by Tesla because "it is an inferior model so should have the inferior range". If the company you bought the car from doesn't have an accurate database of what you should have then there's going to be trouble. Also what's stopping them gimping your car from factory and selling you the upgrade to what it should have anyway? Seems real easy to get a car to notice when it's on a rolling road and gently caress the emissions, why not the same for a dyno? We all know companies are out to gently caress customers over as much as possible. Always online stuff is going to be a clusterfuck because again, car companies suck poo poo at security and programming and their cars are made up of a network of a hundred different 3rd party products which the car company has never security tested to find most of them have backdoor access from the manufacturer.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 10:15
|
|
|
Olympic Mathlete posted:Also what's stopping them gimping your car from factory and selling you the upgrade to what it should have anyway? Seems real easy to get a car to notice when it's on a rolling road and gently caress the emissions, why not the same for a dyno? We all know companies are out to gently caress customers over as much as possible. IIRC this was literally a thing they did for a short time, P60's and P75's I think were the same hardware. I don't think it was intentional as such, they just didn't have P60 batteries. The traditional answer as to why they wouldn't shortchange the customer on power is because it cost more to build the more powerful motor so what's the point, but now when so much more is software based, you don't do it because that would breech all kinds of the most basic consumer protection laws. Dodging emissions was more about loving the government, not customers, customers got a better deal because VW decided cheating emissions was cheaper than shoving DPF and DEF systems into the cars, letting them sell for less money.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 11:06
|
|
|
Dr. Lunchables posted:I’ve heard that painting the plastic cladding reduces the aerodynamics. Dunno if that’s true, just an anecdote. Paint adds thickness(and weight) but it's usually trivial amounts.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 11:11
|
|
|
BuckyDoneGun posted:IIRC this was literally a thing they did for a short time, P60's and P75's I think were the same hardware. I don't think it was intentional as such, they just didn't have P60 batteries. If the hardware in the car changes and they can just turn off functionality on a whim then that is bad. Me talking about gimping an already manufactured engine in software is referring to the previous discussion about being able to subscribe to get more power out of the car you already own. I imagine they're not working on tunes after the car is released but just using software to pull some power out prior to sale and then letting you pay monthly to get it back. And I'd argue that manufacturers gaming the emissions testing system in order to sell their cars is outright deception to customers who were buying certain cars because they were told they were less bad for the environment than they actually were. You can't make an educated decision if the facts they present to you are a fabrication. (if it isn't clear I understand these are businesses and businesses are always looking for the cheapest way of doing something to maximise profit for shareholders which is why I have zero faith that any change like these are for the customer's benefit.)
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 12:14
|
|
|
SlowBloke posted:Paint adds thickness(and weight) but it's usually trivial amounts. And on that note I segue into one of Tet Jr's favorite internet videos: "Crawler Transporter" of the actually very excellent Truck Tunes series.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 14:48
|
|
|
KakerMix posted:What are you paying for then? What is it that needs a constant subscription to support this unlocked potential? You're paying for software and other things, too. Like are people mad that the hardware in an EA888 supports ~230hp but VW only sells it in the US in a 170hp state of tune?
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 15:34
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You're paying for software and other things, too. Like are people mad that the hardware in an EA888 supports ~230hp but VW only sells it in the US in a 170hp state of tune? People would be mad if VW told their US customers for $100/mo in perpetuity that they could have the 230HP version. The problem isn't 2 different tunes for regulatory reasons. The problem is they are literally giving you both for the purchase price of the vehicle, but you can't use 1 unless you pay extra for literally no reason other than "gently caress you pay us" You aren't paying for "software and other things", that would be a separate connected services fee. And if they're actually improving things, eh, fine, I can see an argument for an ongoing cost. But that's not what's happening. There is no promise they'll make your car faster, your remote starter start better or any poo poo like that. It'd be like if your car came with a Drive Mode selector, but Sport or Track had a subscription cost while Eco and Comfort don't. Sab669 fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Nov 20, 2022 |
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 15:58
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:You're paying for software and other things, too. Define these "other things". You are claiming Mercedes has something else besides pure grift.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:02
|
|
|
i mean the reason is that developing cars costs money and OEMs are trying to figure out a way to cover ever-increasing development costs i don't particularly care for it but the reality is a new clean sheet platform costs like 1-2 billion dollars and that has to be paid for somehow do you all prefer that say, the 230hp version just costs $5,000 more or whatever?
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:07
|
|
|
Can't wait for barn finds that are bricked because the company went out of business or killed support for an antique vehicle
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:15
|
|
|
when are they gonna start doing the GPU thing where sometimes your civic comes with six cylinders and two of them are just disabled
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:16
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i mean the reason is that developing cars costs money and OEMs are trying to figure out a way to cover ever-increasing development costs
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:22
|
|
|
tetrapyloctomy posted:Can you see no difference between charging more for cars with more power because they have different parts versus charging more to unlock a software limitation on an otherwise identical vehicle? The latter has no engineering cost. It is literally just gimping a vehicle with code and charging the customer money to disable the code. I don't really get "charging more money for different hardware is OK, but charging more money for different software is not OK"
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:25
|
|
|
As far as I know, the hardware and software are exactly the same, it's just changing a setting that allows more power, you're not buying a pro version of the software or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:29
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i mean the reason is that developing cars costs money and OEMs are trying to figure out a way to cover ever-increasing development costs Cool you're just OK with more corporate boot than I. I'd prefer if companies axed a bunch of stock bonuses and maybe cut some executives and passed on the savings to customers but people like you actively make society worse by your sweet grandma level 'well I'm sure they have their reasons' handwaving away from a spam letter claiming they need your help.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:31
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i mean the reason is that developing cars costs money and OEMs are trying to figure out a way to cover ever-increasing development costs  yes i would prefer it be a single purchase rather than an ongoing subscription for as long as the vehicle exists. Why is this is so hard to understand. And then when you sell it you can demand a higher price because you have the powerful one.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:33
|
|
|
The two basic models are you either charge a premium up front in price or you charge some kind of usage fee. It appears that most people want the former, although without the price premium up front.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:35
|
|
|
there is a third model, actually, lol
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:36
|
|
|
KakerMix posted:Cool you're just OK with more corporate boot than I. Calling me a bad person who makes society worse is pretty extreme for a discussion about car feature pricing on the internet. Maybe relax a little bit there. Sab669 posted:
I understand it completely. It's just kinda interesting to play this through. In theory*, in the used market, it could make it a lot easier to find what you want. I don't have to search for a high-output EQS, I can buy a low output EQS and activate the subscription for more power. It would change the used car market quite a bit. *this of course assumes long term support which of course is quite iffy, but over a long enough period of time you don't get OEM support anyway even under the current model.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:40
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:The two basic models are you either charge a premium up front in price or you charge some kind of usage fee. It appears that most people want the former, although without the price premium up front.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:43
|
|
|
Rusty posted:Are you saying the EQS isn't charging a premium and offering a subscription service? The EQS, non AMG goes for $125k. It's an expensive car, that's not the same as charging a price premium for a feature. For instance, if I wanted heated seats on my Golf it costs $750. That's the price premium for the feature. You could also offer that feature behind a software lock where you charge $7 per month or whatever. Taking the EQS, the "normal" traditional way of offering more power is to have a EQS that costs $125K, and then a Performance trim or something that costs $135K. Instead, they're offering one trim and you can subscribe to Performance whenever you want for $150 a month (or whatever). I am not by any means saying that the latter model is better or better for customers. It will change a whole lot about how the car business and car ownership works if it becomes common, and that is interesting to me. There are probably some things that are good or useful in certain circumstances for some people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:48
|
|
|
Where was this anger when the Ford Maverick XL had cruise control disabled in software? If you hack it and attach a button, cruise works.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:48
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:It's an expensive car, that's not the same as charging a price premium for a feature. For instance, if I wanted heated seats on my Golf it costs $750. That's the price premium for the feature. You could also offer that feature behind a software lock where you charge $7 per month or whatever. Taking the EQS, the "normal" traditional way of offering more power is to have a EQS that costs $125K, and then a Performance trim or something that costs $135K. Instead, they're offering one trim and you can subscribe to Performance whenever you want for $150 a month (or whatever).
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 16:53
|
|
|
There's definitely a ton of pressure for recurring revenue and moving to subscriptions in the industry. I suspect that the future that MB wants is something more like one base vehicle trim and a ton of performance and feature stuff shifted to subscriptions rather than trim levels. Part of the reason that all of this is happening is that all the OEMs see aftersales revenue and profit drying up as EVs are introduced due to relatively high reliability of EVs and low maintenance requirements.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 17:01
|
|
|
cant wait for the auto industry, one of the worst industries around, to fully invest into rent seeking behavior to justify it's existence
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 18:18
|
|
|
KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I don't really get "charging more money for different hardware is OK, but charging more money for different software is not OK" It's the same software with a flag changed. But at least you've provided enough information for it to be obvious there's no further point in engaging you on this topic, we never will agree.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 18:22
|
|
|
Fellatio del Toro posted:when are they gonna start doing the GPU thing where sometimes your civic comes with six cylinders and two of them are just disabled I can't wait to connect my phone to my car to run a rootkit to forcibly unlock the two cylinders they disabled because they had slight rod knock 1% of the time
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 18:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 22:33 |
|
|
Are all the other parts besides the motor up to the added power requirements? Like bigger brakes, beefier suspension components, added rigidity structures (maybe rigidity is not an issue in ev platforms). That would be the other argument against paywalling the full power of the motors. If you sold me all the other crap to deal with the added power that I didn’t subscribe to, that’s also hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2022 19:00
|
|
