[Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

fits my needs posted:

https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1597305583539195906?s=20&t=zb4stlot7nWLZoV1c3OnXw

The M101 was a great gun, we have C3s in the Reserves because the government underbought modern LG 1 105mm guns in the 90's. Paid the Dutch a fortune to rebarrel WW2 vintage guns, as a temporary measure. As the government also underbought M777s, the C3s are kept running by having the RCN machine shop in Halifax fabricate parts. I think I've posted about this before, so I'll jump ahead to Ukraine now getting guns dug out of Western Europe's warehouses.

This probably means something about stockpiles as there have been two generations of 105mm guns in American service since then,

and whatever their technical merits and how much "better" they are, newer guns with less wear and more available parts are universally more useful than WW2 surplus that's seen decades of hard use and hasn't had parts made in a half century. You would sensibly supply the guns you have the most of and the most parts for, with the least wear.

I appreciate the positive spin of the headline, and I think 105mm is generally more useful outside of the Fulda Gap scenario 155mm was adopted for, but this is a pretty dramatic swing in the opposite direction of modern lightweight guns. Yes, those were not designed for sustained high intensity operations without the supporting infrastructure of a western military, and have fallen short of expectations because of that. 100%.

It's just that these are not newly built guns. Old and worn guns, even if they were originally of far sturdier construction, are going to be plagued with exactly the same problems as the lightweight guns. Parts on them break all the time. Brake failures, cylinder failures, issues with most of the springs. These are parts that have seen in some cases decades of use, they're going to give out at the worst time when used for sustained combat operations.

It's lose-lose for Ukraine, but what I'm reading out of it is that guns aren't lasting for them anyways, they just need to be fed a steady steam of new guns (and new crews) as they aren't doing much in the way of force preservation. Giving them guns that have been in German or Dutch warehouses since the 90's is cheap, 105mm ammo is plentiful, and I think nobody expects much out of them. It's grim stuff. Nobody's trying to build a Ukrainian Artillery Arm, just keep the war going.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 01:52 on Nov 29, 2022

# ? Nov 29, 2022 01:49

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

FF is there any truth to the idea that you can use tampons as a dressing for bullet wounds? The counterargument is supposedly that bullet wounds even from a 30 cal would be smaller than a tampon by default so you'd have to cut it down to size it correctly.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 02:05

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

gradenko_2000 posted:

FF is there any truth to the idea that you can use tampons as a dressing for bullet wounds? The counterargument is supposedly that bullet wounds even from a 30 cal would be smaller than a tampon by default so you'd have to cut it down to size it correctly.

Well there are packing bandages, so I don�t know why you would, but I suppose you could, keeping in mind that a puncture wound is not the same as a vagina.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 02:07

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

gradenko_2000 posted:

FF is there any truth to the idea that you can use tampons as a dressing for bullet wounds? The counterargument is supposedly that bullet wounds even from a 30 cal would be smaller than a tampon by default so you'd have to cut it down to size it correctly.

It�s a myth started by tactical bros or something. Even the most basic-rear end gauze or sterile cloth and sturdy tape would create better pressure and be more likely to save a life.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 02:21

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Ukraine update: There's a�good reason Ukraine hasn't gotten the most modern weapons

quote:

It�s a popular refrain: Why doesn�t the West supply Ukraine with �X,��where X are advanced weapons platforms like NATO battle tanks, advanced infantry fighting vehicles, Patriot and other air defenses,�and fighter jets. Some will darkly mutter that NATO doesn�t want Ukraine to win, that the West prefers Russia to bleed out slowly, that Putin is being protected, etc.�

Yet the real answer is the same answer I�ve been giving since the first weeks of the war�operating such gear might not be too hard, but�maintaining�it is a monumental challenge for Western armies. For Ukraine, dealing with myriad new weapons systems in the middle of a brutal war? Impossible.�

Take the M777, a basic piece of military equipment.�

This is a simple weapons system. No wheels or tracks. Has to be towed. Electronics are basic and modular (not deeply integrated into the howitzer, but snap on externally to help aim better). There is no automation. The howitzer is manually aimed by turning wheels and pulleys. It is the military equivalent of a bicycle. And yet, as The New York Times has found,�Ukraine is struggling to maintain�these�pieces.�

quote:
A third of the roughly 350 Western-made howitzers donated to Kyiv are out of action at any given time, according to U.S. defense officials and others familiar with Ukraine�s defense needs.

To stress, that�s over 115 of those howitzers out of order at any given time. And it gets worse�since Ukraine�doesn�t have the expertise and logistical chain to maintain them, they have to be shipped�out of the country�to facilities in Poland, Slovakia, and Romania to be serviced. Just think about how inefficient that is.�

The same is happening with Germany�s highly touted PzH 2000 self-propelled artillery guns. At one point, it was rumored that�all�of those�guns Germany had given Ukraine were down for servicing. Same with Polish Krabs, etc.�

What about MLRS? The New York�Times is wrong about this:

quote:
The Western artillery weapons provided to Ukraine, in the form of rocket launchers and howitzers, have sharply different maintenance needs. Of the former, HIMARS vehicles need little work to keep firing their ammunition, which is contained in pods of pre-loaded tubes.

I wrote this a while back:�

quote:
I joined my MLRS unit, A/76 Field Artillery, 3rd Infantry Division, in 1989. This was just six years after the M270 first entered service in 1983. And even then, all of them relatively new, keeping our battery�s nine M270s all up and running at the same time was impossible. They were perpetually broken down�both the drivetrain and the mechanism which swivels the launcher around. I can�t speak to the exact problems with the machinery, but as fire direction, it was my job to send mechanics to a launcher every time it broke down, and I�m not kidding when I say that, out of nine launchers in the battery, three of them were typically out of commission at any given time.

Perhaps that�s why we see so few videos of Ukraine�s�M270s in action. They�re likely broken down, maybe even shuttled back to Germany for repair. HIMARS may or may not be more reliable (wheels instead of tracks undoubtedly�helps), but the reason Ukraine wanted more launchers wasn�t the ability to hit more targets�the bottleneck is ammunition, not launchers�but having functioning launchers becomes a challenge when�a significant number of them are down and being sent back to third countries for maintenance. HIMARS� electronics and hydraulic swivel system inevitably�break down in peacetime conditions, exponentially so in combat conditions.�

Remember, the M777 is like a bicycle. That means�an F16 fighter jet or M1 Abrams (with its jet turbine engine)�are like a Ferrari. If Ukraine is struggling to maintain a simple towed howitzer, how is it going to maintain infinitely more complex Western battle tanks, fighter jets, or Patriot air defense systems (where the�basic�training for its maintenance crews is over a year)?

Again, the problem isn�t training fighter pilots, tank crew members, and air defense operators. That stuff is easy and can be managed in weeks or a few months. Maintenance is the real�challenge, and will continue to be Ukraine�s biggest headache no matter how much people want to claim that Ukraine is �motivated,� �resourceful,� �scrappy,��and other adjectives suggesting Ukraine can simply �figure it out.� Meanwhile, back in the real world,�they still�haven�t figured out the M777 nine months in.

None of this is meant to cast aspersions on Ukraine and what they�ve been able to accomplish. It�s just that even they aren�t immune to reality, and the monumental challenges of maintaining any modern complex weapons system, and especially so a�brand-new one�for them.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 02:32

A Bakers Cousin: Dec 18, 2003; by vyelkin

Yeah that tampon for gunshots is like some made up for TV stuff

# ? Nov 29, 2022 03:26

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

strapping a dozen unwrapped tampons around my arm with a belt and just making a tourniquet

# ? Nov 29, 2022 03:29

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

American weapons are indestructible and accurate

# ? Nov 29, 2022 03:32

Calibanibal: Aug 25, 2015

Russia has to keep the plant or they lose the ability to recruit orc mutant units

# ? Nov 29, 2022 03:38

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

gradenko_2000 posted:

FF is there any truth to the idea that you can use tampons as a dressing for bullet wounds? The counterargument is supposedly that bullet wounds even from a 30 cal would be smaller than a tampon by default so you'd have to cut it down to size it correctly.

No, that's preposterous.

A clean dressing and pressure are generally best.

Can you imagine if you got a tampon into a deep wound, then had to yank it out later after everything clotted?

# ? Nov 29, 2022 03:57

supersnowman: Oct 3, 2012

mlmp08 posted:

It�s a myth started by tactical bros or something. Even the most basic-rear end gauze or sterile cloth and sturdy tape would create better pressure and be more likely to save a life.

I would have though tactical bros would be all about "just don't get shot" or some equally stupid poo poo.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 03:59

A Bakers Cousin: Dec 18, 2003; by vyelkin

Every tactical guy/EDC guy makes a big deal about their giant medical pouch because its the easiest to stock with real stuff so perhaps this has lead to some duning krugers and weird ideas like tampons

# ? Nov 29, 2022 04:02

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Bandolier full of XL Tampax ready to deploy straight into your gaping wounds

# ? Nov 29, 2022 04:24

Nuclear War: Nov 7, 2012; You're a pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty girl

Ive actually seen the tampon 'trick' done. not to a bullet wound but to a penetrating wound caused in an accident. it didn't form a seal or put noticeable pressure on the bleeding, like i think the tacticbros think it will for a few reasons, but while it didn't fix anything i don't think it made things appreciably worse at that stage. I dunno how it went, but with major trauma surgery in his near future I don't think removing the tampon was even on that guy's top five list of problems.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 04:34

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Are they confusing tampons with QuikClot or something?

# ? Nov 29, 2022 04:35

Nuclear War: Nov 7, 2012; You're a pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty pretty girl

Frosted Flake posted:

Are they confusing tampons with QuikClot or something?

its repeated wisdom in ex mil, prepper and lower level EMT environments in my experience. "they absorb liquid. they're shaped just like a wound canal (no no no) and they expand". i get that it feels like common sense, but it just doesn't work like that.
And like someone said, a "medkit" fully stocked with useless items or things you don't know how to use is the easiest and most accessible way to feel high speed low drag for certain people.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 04:41

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

tampons on my daily carry tacbelt

# ? Nov 29, 2022 04:54

mlmp08: Jul 11, 2004; Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration; Nap Ghost

even if someone has no real idea how to use it, gauze and bandages in a medkit make a better starting point to hope they figure it out than a bunch of tampons and styptic powder.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 05:14

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

Below we are reproducing a post from Ukraine Telegram, along with an assessment from Colonel Douglas Macgregor. A long-standing military colleague sent the material to Macgregor, who deems it to be authentic.

One thing that is striking about the text of Ukraine gaslighting messaging points is the focus on creating dissent in the military with the intent of achieving regime change in Moscow. One thing I have inferred despite my considerable distance from Russian Telegram is the degree to which it seems to be highly critical of the Russian government�s conduct of the war. This seems to go beyond possible self-selection. Yes, ex-soldiers and other war nerds can no doubt come up with mistakes made, as well as having a general hankering for more aggressive action. Mind you, Russia is now moving into that footing with its dissection of Ukraine�s electrical grid. That is presumably be followed sometime in the winter with an increase in the tempo of the war. But Surovikin promised a grinding war. If that translates into grinding in more places, and faster loss of Ukraine/Western men and materiel, will that be kinetic enough to make these armchair generals happy?

What has struck me with my limited contact with Russian Telegram is that its members seem too often to become overwrought about minor setbacks, like the loss of three Russian helicopters at an airbase due to apparent sabotage. Yes, this is bad and suggests not enough care was taken to prevent such an event (although one could easily argue given the ferocity of Ukraine intent that the level of successful terrorist operations has been comparatively modest). But the level of upset on Telegram seemed wildly disproportionate, and hence not organic�particularly given that the Western press also flogged the story.

Some of the messaging in the Western press is also so uniform as to raise questions about how so many journalists can suddenly be thinking the same thing. For instance, now that they can�t not mention Russia�s destruction of Ukraine�s electrical grid, the spin is that this move is an act of desperation by Russia, a last-ditch effort to salvage its failing campaign�.which will clearly fizzle into nothing when they run out of missiles.

Now to Macgregor, who I hope you will thank for letting me publish his finding. Hoisted from e-mail:

I am indebted to XXXX who sent this material to me this morning. The material is very revealing.

The instructions below from the Kiev Government to its propaganda organs read like talking points for the Washington Post, New York Times, and most of the major western media. These points were lifted from a Ukrainian telegram channel. The stories that appear in Western media begin with the utterly false and misleading assertions on the list below. Encouraged by Western Governments, Western Journalists eagerly adopt them and present the fairy tales that proceed from them as factual.

Trotsky who distinguished himself during the Russian Civil War and the Russian Invasion of Poland with the creation of similarly effective lies and fabrications would be enormously proud of Zalenskiy and the work he and his apparatus are doing.

From XXX:

According to the source, this is a conditional training manual for a week from the functionaries of the Office of the President and CIPSO for their bot farms and social media to work in the RU segment.

Media plan, November 21-27
Topic: Problems of mobilization

Search and creation of materials about the problems of providing mobilized weapons, equipment, mistakes in managing on the battlefield and during training.
Use authentic videos from the mobilized, published in Russian news and military Telegram channels.
Obtaining, creating and disseminating insider information about problems in the regions. Detailed coverage, generalization of problematic incidents for the entire mobilization process.
The direct accusation of the Russian high command and leadership of the Ministry of Defense of corruption, low qualifications and neglect of the lives of their subordinates.
Topic: Losses in manpower and equipment

Use of numerical data of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, ISW, CIT, Oryx and other approved sources.
Emphasize high casualties among mobilized, not professional Russian military. The task is to create a conflict between the career military and those called up for mobilization for further development and consistent updating.
Calls to lay down arms and surrender � saving lives is more important than war for undefined goals and the Kremlin regime. Involvement of youth opinion leaders and organizations to disseminate such appeals.
Losses in technology � translate the assessment into financial indicators. Emphasis: the money spent on the war, the Kremlin should have distributed among the population, so that it becomes richer.
Emphasize the losses of the economy from the war and the imposed sanctions.
Topic: Internal conflicts in power

Key line: to strengthen the basis for the revolt of the military against the Kremlin in case of a crisis.
Return to theses about conflicts in the Russian elite, among the �Kremlin towers�. The task is to undermine the trust of civil officials and security forces in each other.
The accusation of officials of the Presidential Administration and the government of disagreeing with the actions of the military, in parallel to disseminate information about the violent dissatisfaction of the military with the political decisions of the Kremlin. Task: to launch information about the next conflict between the civilian and security forces of the regime.
The use of defector speakers to launch information about conflicts between law enforcement agencies � the military, the FSB, the National Guard.
Continuing the line: discrediting past referendums on joining Russia. The key thesis is that among the Russians, the annexation of regions does not enjoy support, their preservation as part of Russia is not considered important following the results of the war.
Topic: Russia is a terrorist state

Key line: The whole world considers the Russian regime to be terrorist in its essence, punishment for its crimes is inevitable.
Active coverage of Russian strikes on civilian infrastructure. Emphasize the suffering of the civilian population from the power outage, the victims of the civilian population from shelling.
Accents in coverage: The European Parliament recognizes Russia as a �State Sponsor of Terrorism�. The Dutch Parliament will vote on a resolution recognizing the Russian Federation as a �State Sponsor of Terrorism�. Emphasize European unity on the issue of recognizing the Putin regime as a terrorist one.�

# ? Nov 29, 2022 05:31

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

https://twitter.com/TheRealMacajo/status/1596823938696417281

double state propaganda hustle

# ? Nov 29, 2022 06:26

speng31b: May 8, 2010

Danann posted:

https://twitter.com/TheRealMacajo/status/1596823938696417281

double state propaganda hustle

get as many intelligence agencies as you can to pay your bills, that's what I always say

# ? Nov 29, 2022 06:32

ModernMajorGeneral: Jun 25, 2010

https://www.politico.eu/article/vla...iting-from-war/

quote:

Top European officials are furious with Joe Biden’s administration and now accuse the Americans of making a fortune from the war, while EU countries suffer.

“The fact is, if you look at it soberly, the country that is most profiting from this war is the U.S. because they are selling more gas and at higher prices, and because they are selling more weapons,” one senior official told POLITICO.

How could the US do this to us???

# ? Nov 29, 2022 07:05

Palladium: May 8, 2012; Very Good
✔️✔️✔️✔️

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

https://www.politico.eu/article/vla...iting-from-war/

How could the US do this to us???

Same big brains: what do you mean america LOVED europe killing themselves in WW1 and 2

# ? Nov 29, 2022 07:12

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

OK, I'm ready to pay attention to Ukraine again. President Zelensky, you may resume the advance.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 07:51

paul_soccer12: Jan 5, 2020; by Fluffdaddy

iCe-CuBe. posted:

OK, I'm ready to pay attention to Ukraine again. President Zelensky, you may resume the advance.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 08:08

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

gradenko_2000 posted:

FF is there any truth to the idea that you can use tampons as a dressing for bullet wounds? The counterargument is supposedly that bullet wounds even from a 30 cal would be smaller than a tampon by default so you'd have to cut it down to size it correctly.

I'd rather use a tube of super glue personally.

What do the tactibros think is the best dressing for a horn size blunderbuss loaded with an entire drawer of kitchenware?

# ? Nov 29, 2022 08:56

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

that shotgun with rock salt from kill bill didn't seem so bad

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:01

Z the IVth: Jan 28, 2009; The trouble with your "expendable machines"; Fun Shoe

i say swears online posted:

that shotgun with rock salt from kill bill didn't seem so bad

You can buy these to use on the 50 feral greenbottles invading your kitchen. Seasons your food at the same time.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:04

Lychnis: Jul 22, 2015; Flowers are beautiful, and smell nice.

Frosted Flake posted:

Are they confusing tampons with QuikClot or something?

More likely, someone somewhere along the line confused tampons with sanitary napkins, which do make useful bandages in a pinch and made even better ones back in the bad old days, when they were designed to be used with belts and therefore had long 'tails' you could use to tie them tightly around a hand, foot, or limb. I'm guessing some 1960s-era Girl Scout lore about the utility of sanitary supplies as pressure bandages for first aid on hiking trips got mangled through numerous oral repetitions into this notion that tampons are great for packing bullet wounds.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:04

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

kinda wanna hear that first conversation between scout and tacticool uncle

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:10

January 6 Survivor: Jan 6, 2022; The
Nelson Mandela
of clapping
dusty old cheeks

( o(

gradenko_2000 posted:

FF is there any truth to the idea that you can use tampons as a dressing for bullet wounds? The counterargument is supposedly that bullet wounds even from a 30 cal would be smaller than a tampon by default so you'd have to cut it down to size it correctly.

Tampons as dressing for a bullet wound are a god awful idea.

oh yeah there's fake blood in the video so be warned

January 6 Survivor has issued a correction as of 17:54 on Nov 29, 2022

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:13

CODChimera: Jan 29, 2009

ModernMajorGeneral posted:

https://www.politico.eu/article/vla...iting-from-war/

How could the US do this to us???

do you think people are starting to catch on

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:20

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Военный Осведомитель posted:

_{(Click thumbnail to open video)}
Застрявшие в воде пикапы украинской армии.

@milinfolive

_{(from t.me/milinfolive/93833, via tgsa)}

mud? mud!

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:22

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

when I was a medical specialist in the armed forces I always made sure to have a couple of packages of tampons stuffed in a pouch somewhere

because the government couldn't be arsed to provide feminine hygiene products for the people who needed them, so they had to come ask us for them if they forgot to bring their own

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:28

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Broke: Grey Wolves

Woke: Grey Eagles

https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/1597505750695555072

# ? Nov 29, 2022 09:29

Ytlaya: Nov 13, 2005

January 6 Survivor posted:

Tampons as dressing for a bullet wound are a god awful idea.

Watching this video made me lightheaded from the dummy with the fake femoral artery bleed. I do not do well with blood.

Aren't you usually hosed if you actually have your femoral artery severed by a gunshot wound?

# ? Nov 29, 2022 10:41

Weka: May 5, 2019; Can't post for 15 hours!

i say swears online posted:

that shotgun with rock salt from kill bill didn't seem so bad

My dad used to get shot in the back of the legs with a shotgun loaded with rock salt when he was stealing fruit from the neighboring farm.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 10:45

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

gradenko_2000 posted:

Broke: Grey Wolves

Woke: Grey Eagles

https://twitter.com/jeremyscahill/status/1597505750695555072

It's great to see bipartisan support for the atom.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 11:15

DancingShade: Jul 26, 2007; by Fluffdaddy

Ytlaya posted:

Watching this video made me lightheaded from the dummy with the fake femoral artery bleed. I do not do well with blood.

Aren't you usually hosed if you actually have your femoral artery severed by a gunshot wound?

About 60 seconds or so before you run dry if I remember what I was told a long time ago. Doesn't matter what severs it, you're hosed.

Like maybe you can reach in and pinch it with fingers but lol good luck.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 11:17

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:18

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Some Guy TT posted:

What has struck me with my limited contact with Russian Telegram is that its members seem too often to become overwrought about minor setbacks, like the loss of three Russian helicopters at an airbase due to apparent sabotage. Yes, this is bad and suggests not enough care was taken to prevent such an event (although one could easily argue given the ferocity of Ukraine intent that the level of successful terrorist operations has been comparatively modest). But the level of upset on Telegram seemed wildly disproportionate, and hence not organic�particularly given that the Western press also flogged the story.

Russians are just upset that US turned out to be wrong and Ukraine didn't get knocked out in three days.

Ukrainians go through the same manic depressive posting episodes too. Now they're spreading rumors about surrender of Bakhmut and Tu-95 air raids.

# ? Nov 29, 2022 11:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] Missing in Action: Western Minds

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