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i think the game being so long and the main story developing so slowly means its less obvious how it doesn't really hang together and it also has an extremely good first impression, because the first chapter is almost certainly the best-written and most coherent part of the game
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Nov 29, 2022 18:09
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the first chapter’s plot is good but the localized script is atrocious, at least in the vanilla version
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Nov 29, 2022 18:12
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Royal was my first Persona game and I've played through it once but I absolutely adored it. No notes, it should have been longer so I could spend more time with the characters. Playing through Strikers rn and I'm not really a fan of the gameplay, but it has more Phantom Thieves and therefore is good.
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Nov 29, 2022 18:21
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I feel like you can dissect literally anything to the point you'll hate it, if you try to do that. Any media of sufficient size/length/complexity is going to be riddled with things that could've been done better, things that make no sense if you actually think about them, etc. and to be honest it's a bad consequence of a lot of online discussions that we all share those things until you can't look at anything without being reminded of its flaws.
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Nov 29, 2022 18:28
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PT6A posted:I feel like you can dissect literally anything to the point you'll hate it, if you try to do that. Any media of sufficient size/length/complexity is going to be riddled with things that could've been done better, things that make no sense if you actually think about them, etc. and to be honest it's a bad consequence of a lot of online discussions that we all share those things until you can't look at anything without being reminded of its flaws. It isn't even online. Back when magazines and letter writing was the primary method of communication for nerds 'nobody hates something more than its most ardent fans' waa already a well worn comment
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Nov 29, 2022 18:41
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Also some of the S.Links are genuinely good! Ryuji's is a nice arc for him even if his character there kinda clashes with how he is in the main story, and I really like how Yusuke's is about him having to find his own reasons for wanting to paint while also tackling the nuance of him still having some manner of respect and even longing for Madarame as a father figure and teacher, even knowing all of the horrible things he did. While a lot of the events in it happen offscreen I also like Haru's since it's just a nice, simple little story about helping her really move past her father's death and realize she has the ability to step up and steer her own life. For all we flailed about Futaba a few pages back the premise of helping her slowly work through her issues by leveraging an old system her mother used for her is sweet. The only party S.Links I'd straight up say are sub-par are Makoto and Ann. Yoshizawa's is okay but felt kinda stock given this was the new Royal writing that also gave us the third semester. I think if it was vanilla content I'd be way less harsh on it simply by virtue of having lowered expectations.
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Nov 29, 2022 19:02
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Dr Kool-AIDS posted:It's kind of amazing that Persona 5 ended up being as good as it is once you realize what a stitched together mess of discarded ideas it is. From a style standpoint it's one of the greatest of all time and that does a lot of carrying.
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Nov 29, 2022 19:08
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P5 has a more ambitious premise and that is both its strength (it's an immediately inspiring and cathartic concept) and its weakness (the inevitable contradictions that come with a corporate product trying to tackle real world evil and rebellion). By contast P4's main storyline is simpler and takes less screentime compared to wacky hijinks, and that does a lot to let you brush over its stupidest low points.
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Nov 29, 2022 19:24
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ZepiaEltnamOberon posted:drat I think I might be overleveled, I'm just instakilling the enemies in the December Palace. One of the worst things about doing my Royal playthrough on Merciless was instakilling so many things so often from the fourth palace onwards. Turns out that now gives 120% base EXP, which is very silly and dumb. In vanilla, it only gave 40% so it made things actually tougher to handle. Instakilling also now giving EXP on top of a free Persona makes it a neverending snowball effect too. So I think being overlevelled is just the natural state of Royal, even without taking advantage of all its new wacky OP poo poo. As for Cu Chulainn, he's probably one of the Personae that you cannot make at all until midway through January if you can't get him normally. The easiest way to tell for sure is to try and rank up/down the one below (Atavaka)/above (Siegfried) him. If he gets skipped by that, he's locked off until later. In order to make him by fusing two Faith personae, you need to use Atavaka and the Rank 10 unlock.
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Nov 29, 2022 21:31
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YaketySass posted:P5 has a more ambitious premise and that is both its strength (it's an immediately inspiring and cathartic concept) and its weakness (the inevitable contradictions that come with a corporate product trying to tackle real world evil and rebellion). By contast P4's main storyline is simpler and takes less screentime compared to wacky hijinks, and that does a lot to let you brush over its stupidest low points. I'll add that in comparison P3's main storyline and themes align really well although it struggles with pacing. To me it is the most compelling of the modern Persona's stories. In other news after getting into Persona starting with P5 vanilla a few years ago I have now played through P4G and P3 FES, all in reverse order. I am now playing through the PSP P2 Innocent Sin and the recently released English translation for the PSP version of P2 Eternal Punishment. I'm debating whether to go back and either play or watch a let's play of P1 to finish off the series. I've been slowly accumulating my thoughts on each Persona game's relative strengths, weaknesses, and comparison of their main stories, character stories, and themes. I'll write it out in a monster post one of these days once I've finished my deep dive.
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Nov 29, 2022 21:41
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YaketySass posted:P5 has a more ambitious premise and that is both its strength (it's an immediately inspiring and cathartic concept) and its weakness (the inevitable contradictions that come with a corporate product trying to tackle real world evil and rebellion). By contast P4's main storyline is simpler and takes less screentime compared to wacky hijinks, and that does a lot to let you brush over its stupidest low points. I think a corporate product can tackle real world issues in a respectable manner. Red Dead Redemption 2 does it very well, certainly better than P5. I just don't think P5 is terribly interested in politics, not to the extent people on here wanted. It has the same message all the Persona games have, even as they take different routes to get there. It's about human potential inevitably succeeding against also inevitable human flaws. It's not like the fear of death or our desire to live in ignorance aren't real world issues, they're just more abstract than P5 talking about our desire to be controlled. But they're all analyzing how a group of teenagers with attitude can show us a way to a world where we meet death, truth, and authority with the proper attitude.
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Nov 30, 2022 01:04
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Mailer posted:The PT crew are equally baffling on this. There's this existential question of dicking with free will sitting there but that's the Phantom Thief job description so welp. There's definitely a spot for are we the baddies? to come up. Sure Maruki needs to be stopped but we should also put down this power as it is inherently just as bad. Instead of any of this, the reason they all jump to is (paraphrasing) "We're just not gonna play by your rules, man" and that's... it. They're effectively just attacking the guy who did their job better. It does go there, kinda. First there's the way your team resists. Second the fact Akechi point blank says "Do this" is a red flag.
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Nov 30, 2022 01:26
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sorry to bring this discussion back, but it was so perfect I had to. got this event with futaba: pretty much right afterward, I got the one where futaba calls sojiro "dad" and he says you're part of the family too. I mean how could anyone get the idea that there's a familial relationship between you and futaba?
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Nov 30, 2022 01:42
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NikkolasKing posted:I think a corporate product can tackle real world issues in a respectable manner. Red Dead Redemption 2 does it very well, certainly better than P5. The problem is that whether P5 is interested in politics or not, it kinda inevitably has to come down somewhere on them given its scope is blown up to encompass systemic societal ills, and its refusal to do so hampers its ability to tackle the issues it raises in any kind of insightful manner. Like yeah the overarching narrative of human will being able to overcome ones flaws and perform seemingly impossible accomplishments is the same between say P4 and P5, but how you explore and frame that narrative is inevitably going to be drastically different between the context of P4's small town serial killer investigation and P5's struggle against the intrinsic structure of modern liberal society. Like as an example, compare the matter of the police between P4 and P5. In P4 the police do not directly oppose the protagonists, ostensibly want the same thing they want, and every cop you meet besides Adachi is a genuinely well meaning good cop, and the spoilered individual has completely unrelated circumstances outside of copping that make them evil. Even when the police do directly impede you, it's under reasonable circumstances like Yosuke waiving weapons around the mall food court like an idiot or Dojima freaking out over the threatening letter. It's fine for P4 to not come down on the side of ACAB because that's not really the focus of the story or how it frames the police within it. Meanwhile P5 opens with the police drugging and beating the poo poo out of a minor, and later you find out the main character's backstory is getting arrested and convicted under false charges to protect a powerful politician. The cops actively antagonize and work against the party the entire game, and are inextricably bound up in an evil conspiracy that they know will gently caress people over because it's more power for them. When you take all that, P5 still ultimately squirming to really say ACAB and instead feeding the player "The cops are just misguided actually but don't worry Sae is one of the good ones, and Makoto will later become another good one, so let's just trust in their ability to reform" is... dogshit, frankly. Strikers kinda tries to put a band-aid on that one with Zenkichi's frankness over how easily a "good cop" can get cowed by the system, but it's not a clean fix by any means. I know that was a lotta words and I don't wanna belabor the point - game is still fun - but that's just one of countless examples where P5 just doesn't have the bravery to take stances demanded of the systemic issues it raises. Sydin fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 02:03
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All this is basically true but I'd honestly say that (P4) Adachi telling the Investigation Team he only became a police officer so he could carry a gun is more anti-cop than most of P5
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Nov 30, 2022 02:21
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Arist posted:All this is basically true but I'd honestly say that (P4) Adachi telling the Investigation Team he only became a police officer so he could carry a gun is more anti-cop than most of P5 
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Nov 30, 2022 02:42
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Sydin posted:The problem is that whether P5 is interested in politics or not, it kinda inevitably has to come down somewhere on them given its scope is blown up to encompass systemic societal ills, and its refusal to do so hampers its ability to tackle the issues it raises in any kind of insightful manner. Like yeah the overarching narrative of human will being able to overcome ones flaws and perform seemingly impossible accomplishments is the same between say P4 and P5, but how you explore and frame that narrative is inevitably going to be drastically different between the context of P4's small town serial killer investigation and P5's struggle against the intrinsic structure of modern liberal society. Oh I agree. I'm no P5 fan. I was just trying to explain their thought process while making it, or at least my best guess at it. I guess ultimately I'd say P5 doesn't think there is any fatal flaw in liberal democracy. That is the default position in most liberal democratic nations. It does genuinely believe it's a case of bad apples. You could say the game is wrong but that is a different problem.
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Nov 30, 2022 02:42
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I love P5 but the vanilla game is painfully rushed and janky. So far royal is infinitely better
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Nov 30, 2022 02:44
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Sydin posted:Analysis A few things and please critique if I’m off base on number two. 1. Check your spoiler, think you labeled the wrong person in this case 2. In p5, is the handwaiving of police actions a reflection of how the Japanese see the police in general? Like the country prides themselves on a high conviction rate from my understanding (like over 99 percent) and general consensus is that if charges are brought forth that the government knows what it’s doing and the person deserves it. That leans really strong in this game even if not outright stated. The public’s cognition would lean to “yep the police are targeting these guys (especially after Okumara’s death ) everything is going the way it should” and the polls on the phansite and mindlessness submission follow suit. Of course no one is gonna tell anyone about what happened with the abuse or poo poo at the beginning of the game because it’s crooked cops in the aforementioned politicians pocket. As much as it should be brought forth if it happened in the real world the police may have swept it all up in just shido’s confession and trial and just “threw it on the pile” for all of their misdoings The narrative is weak on this front I do agree on that. more time exposing and commentary on police issues would have been welcomed (especially in the 5 years after Persona 5 came out with relevant real life police abuse coming more and more vocal) but I think part of it is playing into other themes of the game (peoples ability to just discount or waive things off because it’s “normal”) and cultural norms.
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Nov 30, 2022 02:45
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Lotus Aura posted:One of the worst things about doing my Royal playthrough on Merciless was instakilling so many things so often from the fourth palace onwards. Turns out that now gives 120% base EXP, which is very silly and dumb. In vanilla, it only gave 40% so it made things actually tougher to handle. Instakilling also now giving EXP on top of a free Persona makes it a neverending snowball effect too. So I think being overlevelled is just the natural state of Royal, even without taking advantage of all its new wacky OP poo poo. I managed to make him, I forget how. And it turned out to have been useless because he's not loving required for Yoshitsune, so I had to downgrade him to Okunishi or whatever to transfer his traits and skills. I also finally figured out how to make Futunshi and Satan with the help of a fusion calculator. Thank Christ. Anyways I think I've reached a point where I just wanna be done with the original P5 story and get on with the Royal plot.
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Nov 30, 2022 02:49
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Spiffster posted:A few things and please critique if I’m off base on number two. lol goddamn it, thanks I fixed it. Spiffster posted:2. In p5, is the handwaiving of police actions a reflection of how the Japanese see the police in general? Like the country prides themselves on a high conviction rate from my understanding (like over 99 percent) and general consensus is that if charges are brought forth that the government knows what it’s doing and the person deserves it. That leans really strong in this game even if not outright stated. The public’s cognition would lean to “yep the police are targeting these guys (especially after Okumara’s death ) everything is going the way it should” and the polls on the phansite and mindlessness submission follow suit. Yeah I agree with you on all of this, but that kinda feeds into the point I'm trying to make: by blowing its scope and stakes up so massively P5 makes the very underpinnings of society itself the capital "P" Problem. The cops are corrupt because the government is corrupt, and to government is corrupt because the public is largely apathetic as long as a comfortable status quo is maintained. Part of that status quo is a rejection of anything not viewed as "normal", and all the main cast are directly screwed over because they are not perceived as such. The game ends with Yaldy being rejected and Shido being toppled by Sae's persistence and the newfound public support for his arrest but there's no indication that anything has been or will be done about the wider societal ills that caused those things to take root and gain strength in the first place. Most damning imo, is the game's cowardice at the final moment in refusing to directly challenge the systems themselves as wrong, and instead settle on the people within those systems were evil, and public complacency allowed them to fester there, so just clean all that up and everything will work out fine. Not saying P5 needed to ended with the glorious social revolution and a shot of Joker and Ryuji helping wheel out the guillotines, just that I wish it had been more willing to present a concrete coda on the failed nature of fundamental aspects of Japanese society (and frankly other liberal democratic societies rife with similar issues) tham it ultimately does. Or in other words: NikkolasKing posted:I guess ultimately I'd say P5 doesn't think there is any fatal flaw in liberal democracy. That is the default position in most liberal democratic nations. It does genuinely believe it's a case of bad apples. You could say the game is wrong but that is a different problem.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:15
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Honestly I'm used to media not wanting to overthrow systems, I just think P5 is lame for having a character say they want to be a cop after everything Joker went through, and the fact they either didn't see the massive flaws with that or didn't care is kind of sad.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:26
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The Phantom Thieves will never change anything meaningful and Maruki was right.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:37
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Vargs posted:The Phantom Thieves will never change anything meaningful and Maruki was right. Alternatively, both sides are wrong.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:39
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The insanely high conviction rate is not a sign of every case being good so much as a flaw of the justice system to actually consider the cases with equal measure. It's kind of why the Ace Attorney series exists. Hell, that fact is -why- the protagonist was so easily hosed over in the first place, let alone when he became Joker and hauled in with beatings and injections. Because the game kinda lacks consistency with characterization, you get these huge contradictions with some characters like Makoto.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:42
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Hellioning posted:Honestly I'm used to media not wanting to overthrow systems, I just think P5 is lame for having a character say they want to be a cop after everything Joker went through, and the fact they either didn't see the massive flaws with that or didn't care is kind of sad. Yeah this is definitely the dumbest bit. Would have been fine if Makoto's arc was wanting to follow in her dad's footsteps and be a cop but then after seeing all the poo poo they pull deciding to reverse course. There was even a perfect chance to walk it back in Strikers, Zenkichi looks Makoto right in the eye and tells here "do not cop" and instead of anything coming of it she just goes "I'm gonna cop."
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Nov 30, 2022 03:42
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Vargs posted:The Phantom Thieves will never change anything meaningful and Maruki was right. The White Ending of SMTIV is the only hope we have.
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Nov 30, 2022 03:52
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The ending of P5 is basically "we live in a society" and the proposed solution is "people should think for themselves." In other words, a conclusion that nobody can disagree with because when people say "everyone should think for themselves" they mean "everyone should think like me."
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Nov 30, 2022 04:36
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 I will frame people for crimes they didn't commit and ruin their lives to advance my career goals. You're despicable and we can't entrust the future of our country to someone like you. I will frame people for crimes they didn't commit and ruin their lives to advance my career goals. Also, raising my USELESS IDIOT LEECH SISTER WHO SHOULD JUST loving DIE IN A FIRE ALREADY by myself is very hard. Yaaas queen, it's so sad how a #girlboss like you isn't recognized by our society. People like you are exactly who we can trust with the future of our country.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:01
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That is something I've seen commented on since the start - how the only female antagonist is also the only redeemable antagonist. I dunno, i found Sae likable and believable enough, but I can see the point.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:13
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Sometimes its understandable to lash out when you are being crushed under the unbearable psychological weight of being alive.
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Nov 30, 2022 05:40
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NikkolasKing posted:That is something I've seen commented on since the start - how the only female antagonist is also the only redeemable antagonist. Does Akechi not count? He’s male and an antagonist and the game (Royal anyways) seems to come down on the side of him being redeemable
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Nov 30, 2022 05:46
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DC Murderverse posted:Does Akechi not count? He’s male and an antagonist and the game (Royal anyways) seems to come down on the side of him being redeemable He literally spends the entire time saying I'm irredeemable and an rear end in a top hat, actually. The game acknowledges he's a victim, it never says he's redeemable because unlike Sae, he's actually murdered people to further his own goals. Sae is on the verge of solidifying her issues and become a monster, but you talk her out of it (literally talk her out of it) instead of having to steal her heart because she's not actually all the way there yet. Joker would be the first time she falsifies evidence to win a case, is the way the narrative is written, and she proceeds to literally leave the Special Investigations Unit after you convince her her path is corrupt and wrong. The biggest actual thing she does before her palace is be party to the corruption the system has, and lash out at Makoto once. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Nov 30, 2022 |
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Nov 30, 2022 05:57
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We only see her lash out at Makoto that one incident, but it sounds generally like Makoto has been under severe pressure and had to walk around on tiptoes quite a bit during her life.
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Nov 30, 2022 06:19
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Lord_Magmar posted:The biggest actual thing she does before her palace is be party to the corruption the system has, and lash out at Makoto once. There's also that weird threat to call Japanese CPS on Sojiro that never really comes up again.
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Nov 30, 2022 06:23
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Lord_Magmar posted:He literally spends the entire time saying I'm irredeemable and an rear end in a top hat, actually. I mean, he's redeemable on paper? In royal when he turns himself in to Sae in place of Joker (uh, maybe, could also be a cognition or something) the party seems genuinely moved by it. Like Futaba and Haru are on record that neither could ever forgive Akechi, but accept the outcome of him turning himself in and the possibility of him atoning for what he's done. However he's irredeemable in practice because he doesn't actually regret a single thing he's done even after learning he was always an unwitting pawn and all his killings were basically for nothing. Which, and I cannot stress this enough, is what makes Akechi great. If his new third semester content was him being all apologetic and regretful of what he'd done, fully won over by the power of friendship because of the interaction in Shido's palace, it would have been insulting. The whole "no I'm actually still psycho lol, BUT we share a goal so let's partner up" angle is a perfect expansion of his character from Vanilla.
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Nov 30, 2022 07:12
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We should take into consideration the possibility that the people Akechi killed had bad vibes.
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Nov 30, 2022 07:27
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Personally I think it's a bit ridiculous holding the fact the game didn't dare become, like, the New Communist Manifesto against it. There are thousands of stories about the corruption of the government/police/army/etc... that end on the optimistic note that reform of these institutions is possible but this is the only piece of media I've seen where there's a significant backlash for playing it safe like that. Then again I can understand Royal's release date that made it a popular "lockdown game" coupled with its proximity to the BLM movement having an impact on people's perception of this particular game.
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Nov 30, 2022 09:46
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The pre-release tagline was "You are a slave. Want emancipation?" I can see someone promised emancipation being dissatisfied with "reform of slavery is possible".
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Nov 30, 2022 10:19
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I think it's entirely fair to say the game has a very superficial aesthetic of rebellion. Even leaving aside politics stuff, they're called Phantom Thieves. And yet tehy don't really steal things or break laws. They're fighting Shido and other criminals who are the ones breaking the law. I think we've all seen stories where they really wanna make the heroes seem "edgy' but then they aren't at all. I was joking earlier about SMTIV but, to be entiely honest, SMT is in fact a lot more subversive and rebellious than Persona ever has been, even the older games. It's just a byproduct of having real choice. It's why I love WRPGs.
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Nov 30, 2022 10:36
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