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For immortal monstrous inhuman Things That Should Not Be, these vampires all seem to show extreme restraint. I bet The Beast is all just gaslighting.
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Nov 30, 2022 18:47
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https://vtm.paradoxwikis.com/VTM_Wiki Official Wiki is live, I haven't had a chance to look at it since it's blocked on my work wifi, but judging from the discussion in the discords it's full of lots of stupid poo poo.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:13
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Fuzz posted:https://vtm.paradoxwikis.com/VTM_Wiki Stupid how?
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Nov 30, 2022 19:18
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Dawgstar posted:Stupid how? You can't use the word "friend" when referring to other kindred because they're incapable of having true friendship. Same for "love" and lots of other obnoxious RP police type poo poo. Sounds bizarre and terrible.
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Nov 30, 2022 19:50
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Fuzz posted:You can't use the word "friend" when referring to other kindred because they're incapable of having true friendship. Same for "love" and lots of other obnoxious RP police type poo poo. Sounds bizarre and terrible. I'm not seeing that, where are they finding it?
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Nov 30, 2022 19:55
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Fuzz posted:You can't use the word "friend" when referring to other kindred because they're incapable of having true friendship. Same for "love" and lots of other obnoxious RP police type poo poo. Sounds bizarre and terrible.
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Nov 30, 2022 21:57
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The vampire friendship stuff is another example of ostensible setting canon that only actually makes sense as an in-character social stereotype or ideological mystification. Uh, yeah, bro, I literally don't experience love or friendship and definitely don't feel conflicted about any of the heinous poo poo I do to survive. Frankly if I did it'd be kinda gay. Why are you, as a Ventrue,
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Nov 30, 2022 22:04
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I found the word friend on several articles in that wiki so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
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Dec 1, 2022 00:40
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It's a dumb thing in the writing style guide, about vampires not really feeling love, friendship, etc. to boil it down to what people are bitching about. They also talked at length on the Discord about how it's something discussed internally by the WoD team too, and all of that boils down to 'this is what PDX wants us to write, but please, feel free to ignore that'.
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Dec 1, 2022 01:51
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disaster pastor posted:I'm not seeing that, where are they finding it? Wiki Style Guidelines Word Choices: Tone posted:“Friend”: Vampires should never be described as having “friends”. They have “associates”, “allies”, and might even have “comrades”, but actual friendship is beyond their dead hearts. (Note that “friend” can still be used insincerely in dialogue.) Can't speak to how important or unimportant or obeyed or disobeyed this is, just that it's there.
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Dec 1, 2022 06:53
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tesseract fucked around with this message at 19:30 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Dec 1, 2022 10:52
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Ferrinus posted:The vampire friendship stuff is another example of ostensible setting canon that only actually makes sense as an in-character social stereotype or ideological mystification. Uh, yeah, bro, I literally don't experience love or friendship and definitely don't feel conflicted about any of the heinous poo poo I do to survive. Frankly if I did it'd be kinda gay. Why are you, as a Ventrue, (no hemo)
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Dec 1, 2022 10:58
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So if I wanna talk about Lucita and Fatima I just say, what, "they were in a relationship where they tolerated each other?"
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Dec 1, 2022 14:23
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Dawgstar posted:So if I wanna talk about Lucita and Fatima I just say, what, "they were in a relationship where they tolerated each other?" "They were just really close citybeatnik fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Dec 1, 2022 |
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Dec 1, 2022 16:34
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gently caress Associates
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Dec 1, 2022 20:14
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Roommates 😌
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Dec 1, 2022 20:23
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Fangmates.
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Dec 1, 2022 20:35
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Regionally they would describe themselves as cousins, to explain why they hang out all the time.
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Dec 1, 2022 20:37
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You're not allowed to call them lovers, but there's no rule saying you can't call them fuckers.lemonadesweetheart posted:gently caress Associates "I was hoping our relationship could be something a little more intimate than gently caress associates, but I might not be ready to be gently caress comrades. Will you form a gently caress alliance with me?" I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Dec 1, 2022 |
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Dec 1, 2022 21:14
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Am I reading this right that it isn't a directive to players but rather a style guide thing for writers? I could see how directly avoiding the use of words like love and friend could help to set a tone in line with being a monstrous outcast.
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Dec 1, 2022 21:26
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Wittgen posted:Am I reading this right that it isn't a directive to players but rather a style guide thing for writers? I could see how directly avoiding the use of words like love and friend could help to set a tone in line with being a monstrous outcast. Yeah it's just a dumb wiki style guide. But it's funny.
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Dec 2, 2022 01:58
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I have a mechanics question. I'm reading through the Hunter 2e book focusing in on the nitty gritty of the rules so I can answer questions for my players whenever we get around to making characters and in the section of Merits there's this series of sentences:quote:Style Merits When I previously read through this awhile back and I always interpreted this as meaning that you couldn't access the 4-dot maneuver until you bought 4 dots in the Merit, but reading it again it seems to be indicating that the three-dot maneuver is it's own merit and you need to spend exp for an additional 4 dots to access the 4-dot maneuver. Which interpretation is correct? Like they write, "So, if a Style Merit has a three-dot and four-dot maneuver, you must purchase the three-dot maneuver before accessing the four-dot." But if you're just buying dots in the Style Merit, isn't impossible not to buy the 3-dot before you buy the 4-dot because that's basic arithmetic? What am I missing here? (On that note, I hate that these books don't have example characters they use to show how this stuff works)
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Dec 2, 2022 08:21
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That is what it means. It's not spelled out the best but when there's things like say Trained Observer, which comes as a 1 dot version OR a 3 dot version, it helps to spell it out.
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Dec 2, 2022 10:39
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disaster pastor posted:Yeah, I like when a theme of a game is "part of the reason vampires are such evil shits is because, by this point, a sizable contingent of them are people who were the same kind of evil shits their whole lives, and got turned when they got busted and a vampire heard about them." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOq49ZkzSgc
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Dec 2, 2022 13:02
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disaster pastor posted:Yeah, I like when a theme of a game is "part of the reason vampires are such evil shits is because, by this point, a sizable contingent of them are people who were the same kind of evil shits their whole lives, and got turned when they got busted and a vampire heard about them." This is one of the strongest parts of 5E, honestly, the way Humanity has nothing to do with any sort of objective morality and is just, "how much like your coherent self are you still?" Convictions are what determine what you were like, so even though by the book rules neonates default to Humanity 7, one character's Humanity 7 is a completely different animal from another's, and while your vampire might be just trying to live they're life in as normal a way as possible and is a pacifist, the player next to you is playing an ex-serial murderer that used to collect his victims' hands in jars of formaldehyde. They just hosed it up by still calling it Humanity instead of Identity or Self or something, so most older edition players are completely confused by it and the garbage rear end explanation in the core book doesn't help.
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Dec 2, 2022 13:56
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lemonadesweetheart posted:gently caress Associates A polycule of vampire lawyers trying to make gently caress partner so they can get their name on the relationship.
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Dec 2, 2022 14:04
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Fuzz posted:This is one of the strongest parts of 5E, honestly, the way Humanity has nothing to do with any sort of objective morality and is just, "how much like your coherent self are you still?" Convictions are what determine what you were like ... They just hosed it up by still calling it Humanity instead of Identity or Self or something, so most older edition players are completely confused by it and the garbage rear end explanation in the core book doesn't help. Ah - so much closer to nWoD Integrity than Humanity. Does that mean the old Paths of Enlightenment and such are out?
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Dec 2, 2022 14:10
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I could have sworn that there were still general Stains you could get for being a huge flaming rear end in a top hat, it's just that you can mitigate them with your Convictions.
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Dec 2, 2022 14:40
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citybeatnik posted:I could have sworn that there were still general Stains you could get for being a huge flaming rear end in a top hat, it's just that you can mitigate them with your Convictions. Nope, only if the Chronicle Tenets specify not to be a huge flaming rear end in a top hat. The only automatic stains are injuring or damaging your Touchstones (which also applies if someone else does it, because Touchstones by definition are what anchor your psyche and help you maintain control) or blood bonding or Embracing others because that's considered to inherently be feeding the Beast and thus erodes who you are. Gothic Rite posted:Ah - so much closer to nWoD Integrity than Humanity. Does that mean the old Paths of Enlightenment and such are out? Yup. If you want to still play them for whatever reason, you can just use Convictions, or if the whole campaign is about that sorta stuff, you could tailor the Tenets to also reflect it. Every vampire uses Humanity, because Humanity is just about you vs the Beast. Fuzz fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 15:17
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Fuzz posted:Every vampire uses Humanity, because Humanity is just about you vs the Beast. Okay, yeah - that's an interesting differentiation between R2 and V5. Where I view Requiem degeneration as more of an inability to fit in with human society (aka your Masquerade) with the beast as a mechanism hampering that process. V5 being a much more direct loss of yourself to the beast seems like it could be an easier hitch to attach character to.
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Dec 2, 2022 16:00
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Gothic Rite posted:Okay, yeah - that's an interesting differentiation between R2 and V5. Where I view Requiem degeneration as more of an inability to fit in with human society (aka your Masquerade) with the beast as a mechanism hampering that process. V5 being a much more direct loss of yourself to the beast seems like it could be an easier hitch to attach character to. Yeah, very true. Humanity is less a rating and more of a sliding scale with numerical markers. 0 is The Beast won, you're now a mindless Wight and the part of the vampire that was "you" is gone. Humanity 10 is instead that you have utterly tamed your Beast and risen above it, but by design that sort of is impossible because the Hunger is always there and eventually You Will gently caress Up. Degeneration is the Beast gobbling up chunks of your psyche and as you fall you become less and less yourself and more and more an instinctual and predatory monster. Personally I think a pie chart works as a better visualization. Some people hate that aesthetic and want to play beautiful ethereal immortal night creatures waltzing with each other for centuries and whatnot, that's fine and V5 probably not the best game for that, play something else. If you want personal horror and self loathing from night to night while dealing with other shitbags who are just as toxic, while frantically scrabbling to hang on to whatever shreds of what makes you "you" that are left, then yeah, V5 works reasonably well.
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Dec 2, 2022 17:40
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Anonymous Zebra posted:When I previously read through this awhile back and I always interpreted this as meaning that you couldn't access the 4-dot maneuver until you bought 4 dots in the Merit, but reading it again it seems to be indicating that the three-dot maneuver is it's own merit and you need to spend exp for an additional 4 dots to access the 4-dot maneuver. Which interpretation is correct? Your original interpretation is right. It's impossible not to buy the 3-dot before you buy the 4-dot because that's basic arithmetic. They carried text like this over from 1e where buying dots had a scaling cost, so it was originally clarifying that if you buy Style 3, that was a cost of 2+4+6 xp, and you couldn't just isolate out the third dot maneuver for 6 xp.
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Dec 2, 2022 17:42
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I'm a bigger fan of the "vampire as intermediate stage becoming something else" suggested in some of the Requiem side materials and some of the alternate Paths (in theory if not in execution) in Masquerade, although moreso the former since it's more framed as part of the vampiric condition rather than an escape from it. The Beast as something that turns you into a mindless blood-craving zombie is a game-over state but it's a pitiful one and in some ways frankly less disturbing than a normal "well-adjusted" vampire. The Beast as an ever-expanding aspect of your personality that gradually dwarfs your human life and experience until they're little more than your fading memories of early childhood, and the real you is something completely different? That's scary.
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Dec 2, 2022 17:48
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citybeatnik posted:I could have sworn that there were still general Stains you could get for being a huge flaming rear end in a top hat, it's just that you can mitigate them with your Convictions. There aren't things that give Stains from being a flaming rear end in a top hat. There are things that are about flexing your vampireness and doing obviously inhuman things like drinking a human like a juicebox (Brutal Feed) or boiling them alive with their own blood (Cauldron of Blood), but not for just being an rear end in a top hat. Humanity is about how much you are still Human You, not Vampire You. Gothic Rite posted:Okay, yeah - that's an interesting differentiation between R2 and V5. Where I view Requiem degeneration as more of an inability to fit in with human society (aka your Masquerade) with the beast as a mechanism hampering that process. V5 being a much more direct loss of yourself to the beast seems like it could be an easier hitch to attach character to. This is why I like V5 Humanity so much. It's the literal you versus the Beast, and the more Beast you become the less you fit in among your own kind (thus the lower Humanity penalties) and stop thinking and acting like John. MoonKnight fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Dec 2, 2022 |
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Dec 2, 2022 20:06
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MoonKnight posted:This is why I like V5 Humanity so much. It's the literal you versus the Beast, and the more Beast you become the less you fit in among your own kind (thus the lower Humanity penalties) and stop thinking and acting like John. Right, but their point is that in V5 when you lose it all you just become a mindless Wight, rather than just being this horrible but completely sentient and vicious other person using your face as their meatsuit, which is what VtR 2E basically has as the end result.
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Dec 2, 2022 21:21
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Fuzz posted:Right, but their point is that in V5 when you lose it all you just become a mindless Wight, rather than just being this horrible but completely sentient and vicious other person using your face as their meatsuit, which is what VtR 2E basically has as the end result. Well, yeah, that's what losing Humanity in Masquerade does. VtR is a different game. Both are good end points, and highlight the differences in approach to Humanity there.
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Dec 2, 2022 21:28
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Fuzz posted:Right, but their point is that in V5 when you lose it all you just become a mindless Wight, rather than just being this horrible but completely sentient and vicious other person using your face as their meatsuit, which is what VtR 2E basically has as the end result. Huh? Humanity 0 in VtR 2e has you becoming a draugr, a feral monster
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Dec 3, 2022 02:18
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I think they introduce the idea of what you might call a high-functioning draugr somewhere in late 1e or 2e Requiem. I know that's how my group ended up treating Humanity after a while, as a trait with scaling benefits and drawbacks at various levels (high Humanity means retaining your social skills and ability to pass for human as well as Willpower rebates when protecting Touchstones BUT a tendency to bleed Willpower when harming people), with 0 Humanity representing an opportunity to declare that your vampire has devolved into a feral animal OR just play as a completely remorseless but entirely sapient monster who might eventually manage to climb back up the ladder at some point.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Dec 3, 2022 |
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Dec 3, 2022 02:31
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Fuzz posted:The only automatic stains are injuring or damaging your Touchstones (which also applies if someone else does it, because Touchstones by definition are what anchor your psyche and help you maintain control) or blood bonding or Embracing others because that's considered to inherently be feeding the Beast and thus erodes who you are. MoonKnight posted:There aren't things that give Stains from being a flaming rear end in a top hat. There are things that are about flexing your vampireness and doing obviously inhuman things like drinking a human like a juicebox (Brutal Feed) or boiling them alive with their own blood (Cauldron of Blood), but not for just being an rear end in a top hat. Humanity is about how much you are still Human You, not Vampire You. There's also rolling either a 1 or a 10 on a Rouse Check when using any Oblivion ability including Ceremonies when it comes to permanent sources of Stains. That always stuck me as an odd choice, but the Lasombra at my table prefers a Dominate/Potence build, so I've never seen how that shakes out in play.
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Dec 3, 2022 02:57
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm a bigger fan of the "vampire as intermediate stage becoming something else" suggested in some of the Requiem side materials and some of the alternate Paths (in theory if not in execution) in Masquerade, although moreso the former since it's more framed as part of the vampiric condition rather than an escape from it. A good trick in R2 is to replace wights (or draugr or whatever humanity 0 is called in nwod) with strix. A vampire who takes it too far becomes something that is alien and monstrous even to other vampires. Then you can have Kindred society struggling to destroy these things wherever they appear while some seriously debate whether throwing away your humanity is what you're supposed to be doing. It immediately sets up a conflict over the subject between the progressive and conservative factions, and gives the Ordo room to pursue the question to some pretty horrific places.
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Dec 3, 2022 05:49
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