Jordan Peterson is Back: Incelsior!

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Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

'red-brown' poo poo always seems to be massively overblown if not flat out made up/based on ridiculous misunderstandings. For the most part, you don't see any real overlap or drift there aside from the biggest idiots and/or terminal contrarians taking every position possible on their inevitable way to the far right, because the worldviews and discourse are completely incompatible. Or they're doing the 'I used to be a woke liberal until I grew up and knew better' grift.

# ? Dec 3, 2022 08:02

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 05:49

thin blue whine: Feb 21, 2004; PLEASE SEE POLICY; Soiled Meat

optical id verification???? for a twitter account? what the gently caress is he talking about? how does this work? what if you want to tweet from your pc? or a browser on your phone for whatever reason

# ? Dec 3, 2022 08:45

PITY BONER: Oct 18, 2021

thin blue whine posted:

optical id verification???? for a twitter account? what the gently caress is he talking about? how does this work? what if you want to tweet from your pc? or a browser on your phone for whatever reason

He said "optional," not "optical." Facebook does it now for new accounts. They want a photo of your ID or passport to prove you are who you say you are. However, if you don't make a username that exactly matches your ID, Facebook will just lock your poo poo and delete your account, block your phone number from being used on new accounts, and most likely block your ID from being used again. And they wonder why new users aren't signing up.

# ? Dec 3, 2022 08:51

Woolie Wool: Jun 2, 2006

Ghost Leviathan posted:

'red-brown' poo poo always seems to be massively overblown if not flat out made up/based on ridiculous misunderstandings. For the most part, you don't see any real overlap or drift there aside from the biggest idiots and/or terminal contrarians taking every position possible on their inevitable way to the far right, because the worldviews and discourse are completely incompatible. Or they're doing the 'I used to be a woke liberal until I grew up and knew better' grift.

I don't entirely agree with this. While I do agree that all of these people, if they are not already on the far right (and certainly someone like Greer or especially Moldbug was never left-wing at all), will eventually end up there, I think the same can happen to any leftist who gives up on the idea that all people can collectively better their social and material conditions through political organization and action, and such people, going over the right, can attack the morale of other leftists, convince them that :matters:

or some sweeping political prophecy like Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West (very popular among these people) foretells civilization's doom, and lead them down the same path. Once those brain worms enter your head, it's only a short evolution to thinking that other leftists are hopium-chugging idiots, queer people are splitting the working class by wanting to continue existing, and boom, you're now a red-brown fascist ready to blackpill other leftists and sabotage leftist causes. And if you're not paying attention you might not even know this is happening, because a lot of these writers are very good at rhetorical bait-and-switch games where they will say something superficially lefty-sounding about "the working class" (but usually referring exclusively to white industrial workers in the global North) that conceals a train of argument leading directly to far-right ideas (anti-immigration, anti-queer, religious traditionalism, etc.).

Also don't forget that this was the rhetorical and political strategy imposed by a certain "National Socialist German Worker's Party" ( :godwinning:

) from 1921 until 1934, when they had much of the German industrial system behind them, had purged the Sturmabteilung, and no longer needed their fig leaf of "yeah we're kind of like socialists, but German socialists advocating for the German worker" to win elections and remain in power. A lot of "left Nazis" even went on believing the Nazi Party could help the (German) working class right up until the SS murdered them in the Night of the Long Knives. They had doombrained themselves into believing in an the eternal, mythic war of nations and peoples that made solidarity with other ethnic groups, women, indigenous people, queer people, etc. impossible, while still also believing that they were socialists fighting for the liberation of the common (German) man.

You are not immune to brain worms.

Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Dec 3, 2022

# ? Dec 3, 2022 17:43

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

i don't mean to come off as a "purity tester" but imho once you're on board with genociding minorities you don't get to call yourself red

# ? Dec 3, 2022 20:21

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

Zulily Zoetrope posted:

i don't mean to come off as a "purity tester" but imho once you're on board with genociding minorities you don't get to call yourself red

And yet you loony lefties say Mao was right on the landlord issue.

# ? Dec 3, 2022 21:18

CharlestheHammer: Jun 26, 2011; YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Hating landlords is pretty bipartisan

# ? Dec 3, 2022 21:19

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

landlords are categorically not a minority :colbert:

# ? Dec 3, 2022 21:20

Tesseraction: Apr 5, 2009

CharlestheHammer posted:

Hating landlords is pretty bipartisan

Truly the one minority you are allowed to hate speech openly. Shows who has the real power in a society (starving tenants).

# ? Dec 3, 2022 21:21

Ghostlight: Sep 25, 2009; maybe for one second you can pause; try to step into another person's perspective, and understand that a watermelon is cursing me

if only there were some way to stop being a landlord

# ? Dec 3, 2022 21:59

Mokotow: Apr 16, 2012

Has ol� Musky acknowledged Jordan yet in any way?

# ? Dec 4, 2022 01:48

MrQwerty: Apr 15, 2003; Can't post for 6 hours!

Mokotow posted:

Has ol’ Musky acknowledged Jordan yet in any way?

He's too busy acting like he didn't take a big ol' L last night

# ? Dec 4, 2022 01:56

Dapper_Swindler: Feb 14, 2012; Im glad my instant dislike in you has been validated again and again.

Quote-Unquote posted:

Ah, Toby "Likes Them" Young, the guy that publicly stated that he would rape kids if he wasn't married.

i will never understand that hosed up evangelical(religious fundie in general) tell. i remember one of the duck dynasty frauds gurgled out some poo poo about how if he didnt have jesus he would just rape and murder and then went on to describe it out for a bit" like i get its partly a bullshit bit they have had for ages to proof that "jesus make me a good guy and will do the same to you and also buy my audio tracks/books" but its always a weird projection poo poo that they think everyone is a psycho who wants to rape and kill but the only that keeps them is line is some carrot and stick thing from some all knowing god and his dead kid.

as someone who is agnostic bordering on atheist, i am always dislike these types folks because i genuinely find religion/faith and the weird lore/art/culture that surrounds it to be genuinely fascinating and while i think its mostly bullshit, i like the symbolism and how it can genuinely help people. but these fucks don't even really want the beauty or the art or any kinda of cultural growth or evolution of beliefs or ideals or etc. they just jerk off to basic shallow ideals and sometimes gurgle about how art should have stuck to Raphael or whatever. its incredibly stupidly shallow. hell even the weird trad fucks like dreher are basicaly just weird lore nerds who want to pick some new favorite character and just use them as a mouth piece for their own hosed inadequacies or self hatred/daddy issues.

Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Dec 4, 2022

# ? Dec 4, 2022 04:02

knox_harrington: Feb 18, 2011; Running no point.

Dapper_Swindler posted:

i will never understand that hosed up evangelical(religious fundie in general) tell. i remember one of the duck dynasty frauds gurgled out some poo poo about how if he didnt have jesus he would just rape and murder and then went on to describe it out for a bit" like i get its partly a bullshit bit they have had for ages to proof that "jesus make me a good guy and will do the same to you and also buy my audio tracks/books" but its always a weird projection poo poo that they think everyone is a psycho who wants to rape and kill but the only that keeps them is line is some carrot and stick thing from some all knowing god and his dead kid.

as someone who is agnostic bordering on atheist, i am always dislike these types folks because i genuinely find religion/faith and the weird lore/art/culture that surrounds it to be genuinely fascinating and while i think its mostly bullshit, i like the symbolism and how it can genuinely help people. but these fucks don't even really want the beauty or the art or any kinda of cultural growth or evolution of beliefs or ideals or etc. they just jerk off to basic shallow ideals and sometimes gurgle about how art should have stuck to Raphael or whatever. its incredibly stupidly shallow. hell even the weird trad fucks like dreher are basicaly just weird lore nerds who want to pick some new favorite character and just use them as a mouth piece for their own hosed inadequacies or self hatred/daddy issues.

If you're going to write long paragraphs, and you shouldn't, failing to use capital letters makes your post unreadable.

# ? Dec 4, 2022 05:21

Private Cumshoe: Feb 15, 2019; AAAAAAAGAGHAAHGGAH

borbab b beberbsb

# ? Dec 4, 2022 05:32

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Woolie Wool posted:

Nowadays a lot of them are now using "professional-managerial class" to mean largely the same thing (but it's also a hatred and envious resentment of the people who do the unglamorous, unheroic caring work that actually keeps society running, and by doing so, expose heroic violence as the useless waste that it is). It really bugs me that hardly any leftists are talking about this conspiracy theory because I think it is incredibly dangerous and is just lefty sounding enough to turn wavering leftists or potential leftists into fash.

Disco Pope posted:

Semantics shift and are hijacked, but I've never understood PMC to mean this at all. Infact, I've seen it used more in the context of those who are just comfortable enough to be the supporters of neoliberal hegemony and be the kind of people to buy into HR consultant bullshit like "White Fragility" (the book, not the concept) or who applaud when a woman becomes CEO of a defence firm.

Forgall posted:

I've only ever heard this term used by leftists.

The term "professional-managerial class" was coined by Barbara Ehrenreich back in the 1970s, and she was a left-wing writer who I think was referring to a class fraction of people who favor technocratic liberalism. It has been used by the left and that's where it came from. I think there are a lot of problems with the term though, and it has some similarities to James Burnham's "The Managerial Society" which dates to the 1940s. Burnham had his own ideological trajectory (from Trotskyism to neoconservatism) and was saying that capitalism was dying and was being replaced by this new technocratic-managerial structure, but that was discredited in his own time, and I think the term PMC now in 2022 is often used on the right to attack the culturally liberal value structure of people who work in urban-based services (most of these are low-paid in fact) instead of railroads or coal mines. But America's class structure isn't complicated. There's the top 0.1%, the largest owners of capital, and the top 1%, which is Wall Street executives and other high managers, and then 5-10% of professionals who service their assets, and then the other 90% which is everybody else.

Woolie Wool posted:

I don't entirely agree with this. While I do agree that all of these people, if they are not already on the far right (and certainly someone like Greer or especially Moldbug was never left-wing at all), will eventually end up there, I think the same can happen to any leftist who gives up on the idea that all people can collectively better their social and material conditions through political organization and action, and such people, going over the right, can attack the morale of other leftists, convince them that or some sweeping political prophecy like Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West (very popular among these people) foretells civilization's doom, and lead them down the same path. Once those brain worms enter your head, it's only a short evolution to thinking that other leftists are hopium-chugging idiots, queer people are splitting the working class by wanting to continue existing, and boom, you're now a red-brown fascist ready to blackpill other leftists and sabotage leftist causes. And if you're not paying attention you might not even know this is happening, because a lot of these writers are very good at rhetorical bait-and-switch games where they will say something superficially lefty-sounding about "the working class" (but usually referring exclusively to white industrial workers in the global North) that conceals a train of argument leading directly to far-right ideas (anti-immigration, anti-queer, religious traditionalism, etc.).

Well I think some people are simply bad or creepy and have bigoted views or they're involved in politics for sinister or self-aggrandizing reasons.

I've thought a bit about this, and I think political people are also constantly in some kinda "self-movement," or it's a developing process (or degenerating process in this case), so "red-brown" is more like a bus stop of ideology from one to the other. I think there are some people who are "Nazbols" who have toxic politics but they're also moving to the left from the right -- there were Strasserists who survived the Night of the Long Knives and fled Germany for their lives and ended up joining German-speaking communist militias in the Spanish Civil War. Reading about some of these people in history too, I think part of the story happens during periods of more intense political activity and the rapid development of organizations due to some kinda social or political crisis, and the people who become "red-brown" types are the losers that get spat out during the consolidation of those organizations.

An example of this is Nils Flyg, who was a prominent Swedish communist leader in the 1920s but basically lost out during this process, and then formed his own separate rival communist party to the official Soviet-recognized one, then they changed their name to the Socialist Party.

What's interesting about this, is that they positioned themselves as further to the "left" of the mainline communist party. Another reason was the shift in strategy among Comintern-recognized communist parties to the Popular Front which meant forming alliances with social democrats against fascism, and defending bourgeois democracy against fascist threats to overthrow it. So Flyg and his gang were like "this is a betrayal" because this isn't what communists "should" do. They didn't believe in forming alliances with social democrats or defending "bourgeois democracy" against fascism, because they were "communists" (or socialists or whatever) and "communists" are "supposed" to be against bourgeois liberal democracy and social democrats. Then a few years later, Flyg is like "hrm, maybe what the communists said about the fascists wasn't exactly true," and then the Nazis are in a war with the British, and the British are *imperialists* after all, so maybe that means Nazi Germany is "objectively" an anti-imperialist force even if they're "subjectively" anti-communist. And now the the Soviet Union is in an alliance with Britain, which just "proves" that these "communists" were never "really communists" but "objectively" anti-communist. So he came around to supporting the Nazis. Then the Germans lost the Battle of Stalingrad and he had a major crisis and killed himself. The end.

This isn't horseshoe theory. I think it's more like operating on Sid Meier's logic with the "you can't cut back on funding" guy, and about how the left "should" do this or that. There's a far greater emphasis on ideas than practicality or just simple reality. Like the "party" can't simply make a revolution if the people are unwilling to make one, which by the early 1930s was most likely the case, that Europe was entering into a period of a far-right reactionary counter-offensive against the radical changes produced in the aftermath of World War I. So when those flawed concepts -- which are unmoored from what's really a whole developing process -- then meet reality, they bounce back, leading to failure and frustration, and if further pursued, they become a divisive and destructive movement to the opposite.

The other thing I've noticed is people sometimes "go to war with the person they were yesterday." I'll just say I've met one guy who was actually like this. He was a former Bernie supporter who became a fascist and thinks everyone on the left including Bernie are traitors, or worse, "fascists." That's the thing. His concept of fascism is that the left are fascists, and that the far right are "objectively" anti-fascist. He was really dumb and arrogant and thought everybody else was stupid and easily manipulated.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Dec 4, 2022

# ? Dec 4, 2022 06:32

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Like literally all fascist rhetoric can be traced back to hasty redirection from socialism.

Horseshoe theory and the fear of a red-brown alliance can also be traced back to projection of liberals siding with fascists the moment their perceived privilege is threatened.

# ? Dec 4, 2022 13:37

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

It really just resolves around to the same path of "my politics are that I hate the libs" that people like Glenn Greenwald have fallen into (except he started more libertarian). Once you start blaming the libs for literally everything, then you realize hey those fascists also think the libs suck! And since you no longer actually believe in your supposed starting principles, why not make friends with them

# ? Dec 4, 2022 14:53

Ghost Leviathan: Mar 2, 2017; Exploration is ill-advised.

Glenn Greenwald firmly falls into the 'terminal contrarian inevitably ends up on the far fight' camp, he'd been defending literal nazis, legally in court, from day one.

# ? Dec 4, 2022 15:02

Samovar: Jun 4, 2011; When I want to relax, I read an essay by Engels. When I want something more serious, I read Corto Maltese.

Piell posted:

It really just resolves around to the same path of "my politics are that I hate the libs" that people like Glenn Greenwald have fallen into (except he started more libertarian). Once you start blaming the libs for literally everything, then you realize hey those fascists also think the libs suck! And since you no longer actually believe in your supposed starting principles, why not make friends with them

Yeah... That tracks with terfs, too.

# ? Dec 4, 2022 18:40

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

won't link the tweets because gently caress jorp and musk but ive been made aware of new Jorp antics by this IG post

utterly sickening!!

# ? Dec 5, 2022 07:56

emSparkly: Nov 21, 2022; I'm open to interpretation!