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CuddleCryptid posted:I dont really like grims and tomes in this game, but I can't say they were good in VT either. The way they functioned with upgrading the loot box you got at the mission meant that unless you were rolling with a premade that agreed not to get them it was basically mandatory to pick all of them up every single run. In well coordinated groups I'm sure that's fine, but it kind of killed the idea of just casually playing when most of the team is barely hanging on and yet they're still screaming for books. Oh, they were most certainly not good in VT. Probably the worst mechanic. It's just frustrating that they seem to have gone out of their way to make it worse. We talked about it in the thread a bit before we had more information and I think the immediate concern was "having to look for them in different places is going to make it worse." How did we figure that out in a few posts and how did the devs decide it was a good idea.
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Dec 5, 2022 22:50
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mode it was fairly common for you to get a group that did not have the equipment or skill to get through a map cleanly, and then you'd still have people insisting that they chop 2/3rds of their healthbar off because what was the point of running the level if you got a bad loot box as a reward?
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Grims and scripts are randomized but the possible places they show up is not. I believe people found out it's like a pool of possible locations. Grimoires also stand out pretty well with the green light coming off of it. Scriptures give off a sound but it can get lost in the chaos, so I wish they were a bit easier to spot. I don't think the mechanic is all that good either but I prefer it to what was in VT.
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Dec 5, 2022 22:53
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Internet Explorer posted:Oh, they were most certainly not good in VT. Probably the worst mechanic. It's just frustrating that they seem to have gone out of their way to make it worse. We talked about it in the thread a bit before we had more information and I think the immediate concern was "having to look for them in different places is going to make it worse." How did we figure that out in a few posts and how did the devs decide it was a good idea. It is annoying that they are random but at the same time if you know the spawn locations then they tend to be easy to check. I've been slowly making a list of where my groups find them and most of them benefit by being just slightly out of the way, even to the point where some just require you to check behind a door you just walked through. Like for the train assassination you do the autoscheduler fight, walk through the one of two doors that open up, and if you look right when you walk around the obstacle you see the tome leaning up against the other door. There's no bullshit platforming challenges that you need to do in order to pick them up, it's entirely an issue of having to memorize where all the locations are. Versus in VT where it had you jumping on goddamned lamp posts to get books. CuddleCryptid fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 22:54
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I don't find having to look for them too annoying personally because I am always full-throttle scouring every map for crafting materials because that rubs my brain the right way. This is why I speedrun  Jimbot posted:Grims and scripts are randomized but the possible places they show up is not. I believe people found out it's like a pool of possible locations. Grimoires also stand out pretty well with the green light coming off of it. Scriptures give off a sound but it can get lost in the chaos, so I wish they were a bit easier to spot. I don't think the mechanic is all that good either but I prefer it to what was in VT. Another thing is they (nearly) always spawn limited to one per 'section' of the map, with 'section' defined as any segment between (1) 'gather your whole party' doors/elevators and (2) one-way ledges. So once you find one you can (99%) safely stop searching the section you're in. There are apparently rare cases where two will spawn in the same section, I have never seen it personally, it seems to be rare enough that it would hardly affect your per-run average number of books found over time. The most annoying thing about them for me personally is when my team delays progressing the mission to scour every inch of the level checking for them. The rewards from getting them are just flat out not worth the effort of doing that when the other option is to finish the mission quickly and start a new one, and I'm already spot-checking like 80%+ of the entire map for crafting mats (during combat, because sometimes ADHD is a superpower) and I have the book spawn locations fairly well memorized, if I didn't catch them, chances are they're not there! I am wrong and miss them sometimes but then we're adding several minutes to mission completion and 
deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 22:54
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This game is really fun while killing heretics but the progression systems feel like Fatshark hates the player and is actively trying to foster addictive behavior. I find it really off-putting after enjoying Vermintide. After a few matches and checking the rotating shops for a weapon I might be interested in I'm just left feeling manipulated.
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Dec 5, 2022 22:58
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CuddleCryptid posted:There's no bullshit platforming challenges that you need to do in order to pick them up, it's entirely an issue of having to memorize where all the locations are. I appreciate that there's no jumping puzzles or other crap you have to do to get them, that's true. But the idea that the rest of my team is going to have this guide open and reading it as we're trying to play is just silly. https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2889897310 I barely remember where everything is in VT. And in my experience, that seems the same for most people. Making it more difficult to memorize isn't going to help things. Just read this guide while running through the level! Great! Love it!
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Dec 5, 2022 22:59
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The shop rotation, "earn aquilas in-game" bait-and-switch, and predatory aquila price structure are all indefensible.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:00
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Internet Explorer posted:I appreciate that there's no jumping puzzles or other crap you have to do to get them, that's true. But the idea that the rest of my team is going to have this guide open and reading it as we're trying to play is just silly. I was going to say that it'll turn into the same muscle memory that getting tomes in VT bred where you just check as you run by but boy oh boy is 15 possible script locations per level pretty intense. Hope you all have good mental mapping abilities.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:02
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Shop rotation is better than loot boxes. They can make it better by having more items and a quicker rotation but relying on those loot boxes in Vermintide was the worst poo poo.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:03
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big cummers ONLY posted:The shop rotation, "earn aquilas in-game" bait-and-switch, and predatory aquila price structure are all indefensible. They're also such incredibly mild, neutral things that getting riled up over them looks silly. The "earn aquilas in-game" "bait-and-switch" post was taken down and replaced almost immediately with a version that did not mention earning aquilas in-game, it's a pretty clear case of someone posting the wrong version of the copy and then correcting their mistake. It was up for such an incredibly short period of time that there's no conceivable way that all of the people upset about it and labeling the game "bad" because of it actually saw that post and actually felt tricked by it. I'm not "defending" it, I'm just putting in perspective that the thing you're so mad about is a marketing intern copy/pasting the wrong text document and nearly-immediately correcting their mistake, a mistake which you almost assuredly did not see yourself. I usually hate predatory price structures in games and I don't "like" it here, but this game is so incredibly not in-your-face about advertising the cash shop to you at all that it's hardly "predatory". I looked at the shop once on release day and haven't looked at it since and it does not hurt me to run past it? You have to physically travel to it inside the hub to see ANYTHING about it at all. Even when you do travel to it, all you see is a nondescript icon which you have to interact with to even be reminded that the shop exists. And the game has literally not once shown me anything about it, or what's available in it. It doesn't show up on load screens or the title screen or any of the standard addiction-modeled FOMO stuff beyond "well stuff only stays there for a couple weeks" and "you have to spend $5 but the items cost less than $5" Literally cannot even begin to fathom how people are so mad about these things in this game specifically, the mildest, tamest example of these "problems", which are incredibly prevalent throughout the entire industry and much worse in nearly every other online game. I'd get it if people got this mad about every game but I cannot even remotely begin to understand how people are so passionate about hating them in this particular game. edit: To be fair this is all probably because Fatshark is bad at designing effective monetization structures rather than because they want to do the cash shop "ethically" but that is absolutely a shortcoming I am willing to appreciate in a dev when it means the cash shop is extra-ignorable. edit: vvv Vargs posted:People should be less mad about the cosmetics shop and more mad that the maps suck.  this is a criticism I can get behind.
deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:04
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People should be less mad about the cosmetics shop and more mad that the maps suck.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:11
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How much are they gonna charge for more maps
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Dec 5, 2022 23:11
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how much you got
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Dec 5, 2022 23:11
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Jimbot posted:Shop rotation is better than loot boxes. They can make it better by having more items and a quicker rotation but relying on those loot boxes in Vermintide was the worst poo poo. I think they mean the RMT shop rotation but yeah agreed that the weapon shop rotation is an improvement. Getting option to buy 20 items per hour is better than getting one random weapon every half hour.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:12
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deep dish peat moss posted:They're also such incredibly mild, neutral things that getting riled up over them looks silly. Lol they put the cash shop in the esc menu and placed it between the spawn point and the weapon shop you have to physically run to between each mission. Why are you writing paragraphs defending this.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:14
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Jimbot posted:Shop rotation is better than loot boxes. They can make it better by having more items and a quicker rotation but relying on those loot boxes in Vermintide was the worst poo poo. That it's a less bad mechanic than another bad mechanic is hardly a winning quality. Let me buy a gray item of specific type with random stats and then ruin it by squandering mats trying to up it's rarity. There is no real value added from any perspective I can perceive for why the store is setup as it is. People keep saying that "Fatshark wants you to start the game every hour!" - like - why would they? What's in it for them.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:14
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Cowcaster posted:let me do that for you then: as annoying as the original version was at least they were static so once you knew where they were you could at least streamline getting them every time, them being random spawns meaning you have to comb every nook and cranny of the map to locate them plus only getting a minor bonus if you don't manage to collect all of them is waaaaay worse The first match I ever played in Vermintide involved someone screaming at me because I didn't know where the books were, and a friend of mine invited me to a farming session where they ran Horn for hours, just grinding picking up books over and over. I don't think static spawns are good. Random spawns encourages players to explore the level and find more than just books - I'm sure I would have half as many legos and gamecubes for the toasterfucker if not for the random distribution of scriptures forcing people to search every area.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:14
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My idea of hell is sitting there twirling my fingers while pubbies explore every inch of the map.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:16
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Jimbot posted:Shop rotation is better than loot boxes. They can make it better by having more items and a quicker rotation but relying on those loot boxes in Vermintide was the worst poo poo. I disagree, and I find it amazing that this system made me miss the lootboxes. For the boxes you actually had to play the game, having to just log in to check the store every now and then just feels awful.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:16
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FileNotFound posted:That it's a less bad mechanic than another bad mechanic is hardly a winning quality. I mean, is gambling with crafting mats not the same thing as gambling with the store just with rarer resources?
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Dec 5, 2022 23:18
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CuddleCryptid posted:I mean, is gambling with crafting mats not the same thing as gambling with the store just with rarer resources? Yes it's still gambling - but with mats rather than waiting for the store. I'd need to play game to earn mats. It'd give me a reason to run a mission to earn mats to gamble more. Logging in to check store and then logging out is far worse imo than logging in to grind for materials to upgrade stuff. I also am still amazingly salty over the fact that it took me 3 store refreshes to get a slab for my Ogryn.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:21
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I would like the shop rotation system if they would copy what makes it work well elsewhere to some degree. Don't put so much garbage in the shop. It feels so bad when there's a new rotation, and every single thing is worse than what you have. Let people pin items they want but can't afford yet. Especially with the above, it sucks when you see something cool in a shop rotation, do a mission to try to get cash for it, exit the mission, and it's all garbage. Let me get one or two free manually triggered rotations per day. Every time the player levels, give them a free shop rotation to use. The concept is way better than what Vermintide had, but the implementation feels bad right now.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:26
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FileNotFound posted:Yes it's still gambling - but with mats rather than waiting for the store. I mean, you need to play the game to get money to spend at the store. The mission in question also has materials for you to find to upgrade the weapon. Since we're also seem to be going into a question of a time economy, running a mission for crappy loot die which results in crappy loot averages around, let's say, 15 minutes. Logging in every hour is two to three minutes and has a wider selection of stuff. Neither is ideal but let's not pretend the utter trash system of loot boxes in Vermintide was good because you had hundreds of hours in the game to grow numb to its awfulness.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:26
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apostateCourier posted:Powerful warp entities, gods, six of one, half a dozen of the other. They mention that the Emperor didn't want to be known as a god, but whether or not he IS one is kind of up for debate. The 5 are literally the spires of the hive. No one refers to "the five" as anything to do with the gods in 40k, that's not a thing.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:29
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I liked the system where I could craft whatever weapon I wanted after I had unlocked it, like in vermintide 2.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:30
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Even though the shop objectively gives you way more options than a lootbox at the end of a level, it just feels way worse. The lack of crafting weapons directly compounds the problem by making you rely on the shop. I was hoping there'd be some communication about this today from Fatshark but looks like we'll have to wait.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:30
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Gay Rat Wedding posted:Lol they put the cash shop in the esc menu and placed it between the spawn point and the weapon shop you have to physically run to between each mission. Why are you writing paragraphs defending this. I suppose this is the kind of thing that some players need strategy guides for, so I wrote you one.  in VT2 the shop was 1) visible from spawn, 2) you had to run directly toward it to get to the mission hub, and 3) it was impossible to not pass by it. Also 4) they advertised it in menus with FOMO reminders constantly. Just lol at struggling with it in this game 
deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:31
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FileNotFound posted:Yes it's still gambling - but with mats rather than waiting for the store. I guess I don't understand this, first because logging on just to see what weapons updated sounds like a mercilessly sweaty sprint to an endgame that doesn't exist yet, but what you have exists in the game design, what you are describing is the crafting update that isn't in yet. Agreed though you should be able to buy a basic grey at any time
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Dec 5, 2022 23:32
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Speaking of stuff that was in VT2, wonder if they're planning to implement "Illusions" for weapons. There's options for skins right now, but as far as I can tell, they're all just texture swaps.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:32
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deep dish peat moss posted:I suppose this is the kind of thing that some players need strategy guides for, so I wrote you one. Judging by this diagram, you don't understand the arguments people are making. But eventually, these epic dunks will get you into the PYF SA quotes thread, as you have always dreamed
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Dec 5, 2022 23:33
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It's funny that the NPC for the cash shop is a real piece of poo poo, more so than the other character.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:33
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So someone said that making sure you get contract credit for gathering grims and scrips was to make sure you start a mission on your own rather than drop in on someone else's. So I started a grim mission, and for fully half of it it was just me and the bots. Found a grim, beat the mission, and still no progress on the contracts. It hasn't had any issue with incrementing progress on actual mission completes, but when it comes to grims in particular it seems to have problems.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:33
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Also I don't see a cash shop button in the escape menu.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:34
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deep dish peat moss posted:I suppose this is the kind of thing that some players need strategy guides for, so I wrote you one. big cummers ONLY posted:Judging by this diagram, you don't understand the arguments people are making. But eventually, these epic dunks will get you into the PYF SA quotes thread, as you have always dreamed I'm not a games mod, but I think it would be cool if we didn't do this.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:35
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edit: okay that's fair I was just trying to point out that at no point anywhere in this game do you "have to" run past the cash shop, for anything, and infact you are taking the long route if you run by it at all. I would love to see this kind of anger directed at monetization practices in the entire games industry instead of one small-time bit player that has like the most ethical, tame implementation of it in the entire industry (probably due more to incompetence than intent) tacked on top of an incredibly fun game deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:35
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big cummers ONLY posted:The shop rotation, "earn aquilas in-game" bait-and-switch, and predatory aquila price structure are all indefensible.  Absolutely not a problem for me. Way better than loot boxes. But you do you.Game fun. Ogryn great.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:35
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FileNotFound posted:People keep saying that "Fatshark wants you to start the game every hour!" - like - why would they? What's in it for them. Padding our time logged in metrics looks good to investors. Also, why not have a look at the premium cosmetics shop right over there while you wait for the rotation to happen? See all those other players standing around waiting for the rotation in their spendie outfits? That could be you! 
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Dec 5, 2022 23:37
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Jimbot posted:I mean, you need to play the game to get money to spend at the store. The mission in question also has materials for you to find to upgrade the weapon. Since we're also seem to be going into a question of a time economy, running a mission for crappy loot die which results in crappy loot averages around, let's say, 15 minutes. Logging in every hour is two to three minutes and has a wider selection of stuff. Neither is ideal but let's not pretend the utter trash system of loot boxes in Vermintide was good because you had hundreds of hours in the game to grow numb to its awfulness. I'm not defending the VT lootboxes - because why would I. It's not loot boxes vs rotating store front - hell you could have BOTH crappy systems and it'd actually be BETTER than just having one of them. Both systems suck - and just because the rotating store is less frustrating than a lovely lootbox doesn't mean it is even remotely passable as a good system. Getting money appears to very much be a non issue so far and it's absurdly easy to find yourself with a giant pile of cash and nothing at all to spend it on besides pointless cosmetics that change something from poo poo brown to turd brown instead. I feel like once I've done my weeklies, there is no real 'reason' for me to play anymore that week. Doing missions for loot is not time effective at all, checking the store hourly is tedious, so I just play something else once my weeklies are done. Hell this is basically what I did in Destiny 2 and it wasn't really a game mechanic I wanted to see spread to other games.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:37
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My big gripe with the rotating shop is that the loot kinda sucks! Im at 30, I want end game stuff. The game is constantly giving me items with base item level of 310-330 - when for real it needs to be 350-380+ Why do I see 12 blue items that are rating 330-350!?!?! I wouldn't pay to upgrade those, they're trash. At best im buying interesting blessings. Also FYI Reddit is speculating that there is a weekly limit on "end of mission" drops that resets with the weekly contract. That would make sense as I had a lot of nice orange end of round drops on my vet at the start of last week and then a whole lot of nothing at the end. Could also just be standard RNG runs. S.J. posted:Also I don't see a cash shop button in the escape menu. LOL they must have patched it out!! It was there in the toughness bug patch. I wonder if it will show back up or if the famous fatshark patch poo poo just removed it for no reason.
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Dec 5, 2022 23:39
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Jerkface posted:Also FYI Reddit is speculating that there is a weekly limit on "end of mission" drops that resets with the weekly contract. That would make sense as I had a lot of nice orange end of round drops on my vet at the start of last week and then a whole lot of nothing at the end. Could also just be standard RNG runs. I got several drops including an orange sword in the literal hours leading up to the weekly reset after a week of getting a ton of drops across 3 characters. I agree with you on the Store thing for sure though, especially frustrating is that the shop seems to stock fewer gray items at 30 when those are the ones I'm really looking for  Still prefer it to VT2 loot but it's not ideal here. I'd be okay with the weird power variation if it was at least all grey items so I could just look for the top tier one and craft it but as-is I need a high-end Rating AND I need it to be grey
deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:42
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