|
The fundamental issue of jungling is that everyone thinks they know what a good jungler should do and most of the time that answer is 'help me win/not lose my lane'.
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 05:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 08:12 |
|
|
I think jungle is the hardest role in the game where everyone will yell at you if you gently caress up. Source me, seething at the last jungler I had because instead of playing with the team at any point in time, he would wander off and play solo until the enemy jungle got fed enough to stomp us all. You have a lot of pressure not only to farm in your lane but roam around and gank and do all the critical objectives, like jungler really sets the tempo and you can feel a good or bad jungler way more than a bad top laner for example.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 05:29
|
|
|
jg is easy because you just pick hecarim and rush ravenous hydra (to be nerfed tomorrow)
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 12:36
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:Ah, thankyou, all that makes a hell of a lot of sense! That's all hard to put a name or label to when you've been playing for only a week, but none of that's completely foreign, I've noticed some levels of all of it. (Including the fact that my favorites to play are top laners for some reason.) I've been playing the role as a main forever and it gets an unbelievable amount of flak. Well before you even start to figure out camps and routes and that kind of thing like Hellioning stated a lot of the laners tend to blame the jungler for their screwups. Pinging the enemy's laner after they killed them, the goddamned assist me at tower ping, all of that I've seen forever. It's why I've been grousing a decent bit about the changes they've done to simplify the role. On one hand making it easier to understand is always good. On the other, the loss of nuance in clears and invades sucks for someone that has been at it forever. Neither change the fundamental problem for the role since the game's inception: the laners flame the poo poo out of the jungler for anything they can conjure up to deflect blame. I've been doing it for a long time so I can dismiss a lot of the flaming as a temper tantrum but man I know friends that rebounded off the game immediately when they pick jungle. It's a serious bummer. That being said, if you enjoy toplaner picks, which are generally fighter/tanks there's no shortage of those as viable picks. Don't know what you enjoy in DotA but if you like initiator types that lead fights you'll really enjoy the role. Yi and Eve are fun for sure but they're very much the types that look for someone isolated and in teamfights look for a straggler or jump in well after the two teams engage on eachother. Playing as a beginner though just try what you like, honestly. If you want to keep trying jungle, what do you like playing in DotA? What toplaners do you enjoy? Might be able to suggest something for you, though depending on the dota pick I might know (I quit playing dota1 when the murloc Slark came out) what to suggest.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 15:22
|
|
|
I mean, my go-tos back in Dota were pushers like Nature's Prophet and Broodmother, which were at times also my jungler go-tos because of the ability to get reinforcements and/or literally just delete a big neutral. That stuff doesn't really exist here, for reasons that, again, I assume exist. So that's not super useful. Trying to remember other junglers I enjoyed and I immediately land on Bloodseeker, whose big thing is hoarding a bunch of lifesteal and being able to see and hunt down injured opponents across the map at high speeds. From what I can tell his vague equivalent might be Warwick?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 15:46
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I mean, my go-tos back in Dota were pushers like Nature's Prophet and Broodmother, which were at times also my jungler go-tos because of the ability to get reinforcements and/or literally just delete a big neutral. That stuff doesn't really exist here, for reasons that, again, I assume exist. So that's not super useful. Closest thing I can think to Broodmother or Nature's would maybe kinda be Bel'veth if you're looking to show up and push a lane down, but you need to get the rift herald and be six or higher and you spawn bugs that shove. If you're looking for global abilities to influence the map, Karthus comes to mind as he has a Zeus type ult that fires after he channels. Shen, Twisted Fate, and Pantheon have some global teleports, but they're kinda mediocre as junglers. Warwick shares some common stuff with Bloodseeker. Has lifesteal and the movespeed ramp on injured people on the map. Generally he's a solid scrappy pick
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 16:07
|
|
|
Ivern kind of is Nature's Prophet?
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I mean, my go-tos back in Dota were pushers like Nature's Prophet and Broodmother, which were at times also my jungler go-tos because of the ability to get reinforcements and/or literally just delete a big neutral. That stuff doesn't really exist here, for reasons that, again, I assume exist. So that's not super useful. there's kinda like two broadly overlapping archetypes of "pushing" focused champions, guys like Heimerdinger and Yorick who sit in a lane threatening to push it in hard to try and force roamers to babysit their lane instead of making plays, and splitpushers like Udyr and Shaco who focus more on rotating around and being slippery.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
Yorick immediately comes to mind if you just want to push and ignore the enemy team. And your team. You buy Hullbreaker, stay away from your allies, and just be a cockroach constantly pushing. It's the most annoying thing to play against.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 16:19
|
|
|
One thing League and DotA have in common, is that sometimes it's really fun to just play Rat Dota and constantly be solo split pushing
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 16:26
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:Ivern kind of is Nature's Prophet? ssssort of? assuming its still ring of trees/treants/teleport/nuke thing, Ivern's Daisy and the root count really good cc like the tree ring but they're a decent bit different. he's incredibly weird to play though and is really reliant on his team so I'd generally not advise him as a newbie pick
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 16:31
|
|
|
Cardmaster's Gate is Furion's Teleport but I can't remember if they nerfed it from being global. I think they probably did.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 17:16
|
|
|
SKULL.GIF posted:Ivern kind of is Nature's Prophet? Ivern really doesn't play like NP, nobody in League does, because NP is 1000% defined by having a truly global teleport on a basic ability. Cleretic posted:Trying to remember other junglers I enjoyed and I immediately land on Bloodseeker, whose big thing is hoarding a bunch of lifesteal and being able to see and hunt down injured opponents across the map at high speeds. From what I can tell his vague equivalent might be Warwick? Warwick does indeed have that aspect of Bloodseeker, and he's got a very healthy clear and some good tools. I would, in my entirely unbiased opinion, suggest Rammus as a good jungler to learn with--he's actually my favorite jungler to play right now, period, and I'm ready to lay down some  as to why.1. You can gank early. Some junglers really need to pick up 6 before they can effectively interact with the lanes. Rammus is absolutely set at level 3, and depending on how you start off, you can have a lot of that power at 2 (although Powerball+Taunt means your clear is going to be slowed down until you pick up Defensive Ball Curl). 2. Your ganks are strong. With a little setup on powerball, you come screaming into lanes at speeds that they really can't hope to escape from--even a ward isn't always going to be enough warning for them to get out of your reach in time. You hit them, knock them up, and then taunt them, and that's enough time for your laner to really get in. And once you've got your ult, this effect gets even stronger because you vault over the minion wave at mach 3. You get to force a lot of flashes, and even that won't always save them. 3. You gank often. Not needing your ult to gank means you aren't waiting around after a whiffed gank, you can immediately go do whatever (and your ult CD is pretty short, too). More importantly, though, is that Powerball is on a really short cooldown, so you can cross the map more quickly than basically anyone else, and can respond to situations that you're only vaguely in the area for. 4. You're a tanky initiator. If you fall behind on farm, it does mean that you're going to eat more deaths, but you can still fulfill your role of going in, laying down some CC, and generally getting things started, and opening up whoever on their team is fed to getting dogpiled. You also get to make things happen, instead of needing to wait for a pubbie, or react to a pubbie. 5. You get to poo poo on Attack Speed focused carries. This is a minor point, but jumping on a lategame Varus and forcing him to murder himself via recoil damage is hilarious. There's a couple of downsides, of course: your invade potential is pretty crap, because Rammus doesn't really win duels, and your objective control is pretty bad--you have to successfully gank bot and get assistance if you want to dragon, and you can't interfere with enemy dragon attempts without going all-in, which again requires cover. But that does mean that Rammus has a very focused, obvious gameplan, that's easy to pick up, and gives you a lot of tools to carry it out successfully without huge execution barriers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 17:22
|
|
|
It's been a hot minute since I've even thought about twisted fate. His ULT isn't global anymore, I think each rank increases the area. With the final range being about half the map.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 17:23
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:So I've been playing a bit of League recently just to get the 'I wanna see what all these cool characters are like' bug out of my system after Youtube started recommending me someone who just does a bunch of design review stuff. I assume I'll stop having fun eventually, but at least right now it's not awful. First big difference: every single champion in league of legends scales, even the supports. What this means is that giving up exp/gold is a very dangerous prospect. if you go 2-1-2, you are splitting gold and XP between two people in top, while the enemy team is farming top lane AND jungle XP/gold. If they can avoid dying, even if you deny them a ton of minions, their team is materially getting ahead of you for every second that they're getting two income streams to your one income stream, and fully denying a top laner XP isn't easy. If you don't have a jungler, only their jungler is getting jungle gold and only their jungler can easily gank. So not having a jungler is a very risky play. Secondly: the lanes are closer to symmetrical top/bot as far as "length" and tower positioning, there isn't a safe and dangerous lane nearly as much. The river entrance is equally far from both sides' towers. The main difference between top and bottom is being near the herald/baron pit vs the dragon pit. Before hearld was added, that meant sending two bot made more sense because there was no neutral objective topside until 20 minutes, when laning generally is already over, whereas the dragon spawns starting at five minutes. Once herald was added, there was more map symmetry on objectives, but Riot also added the Fortification mechanic in response to a pro meta that involved mirrored unopposed pushes, the "4v0 lane". With Fortification, for the first five minutes of the game mid and top tower take massively reduced damage. What this means is that if you send your two top and they send their two bot, the enemy team will get much more tower damage than you will, giving them a concrete and obvious advantage. This makes it most sensible to match the 2v2 bot, because any attempt to create two 2v1s will punish the team that goes the unusual direction. There's other historical reasons why the meta is what it is, and Riot openly puts its thumb on the scale to preserve 1-J-1-2 whenever another strategy threatens to dethrone it such as the 4v0 meta I mentioned earlier, but the current reason boils down to: 1. The gold and XP in the jungle is too valuable to give up for a lane advantage. 2. A numbers advantage bot is more valuable than one mid or top early on. In pro play you actually see a decent amount of rotating the ADC around herald spawns and a lot of support roaming, but that's less common in casual play because of the coordination it takes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 18:27
|
|
|
In DOTA (unless its one of the many features Icefrog has removed while chasing League) the support can stack jungle camps for their carry/s to clear when they pick up Battlefury (or otherwise have innate decent clear), there's no stacking in League so that's money and EXP on the table going down the drain when left uncleared
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 18:39
|
|
|
there used to be funnel strategies where everyone would basically shovel farm and xp into the maw of a single player who'd get a massive amount of support and mow the enemy team down with a massive stat gulf. I think the worst offenders of the strats mostly got slapped down and they aren't consistent enough to be viable anymore though
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 18:51
|
|
|
Catgirl Al Capone posted:there used to be funnel strategies where everyone would basically shovel farm and xp into the maw of a single player who'd get a massive amount of support and mow the enemy team down with a massive stat gulf. I think the worst offenders of the strats mostly got slapped down and they aren't consistent enough to be viable anymore though They also just straight up made it so that the jungler doesn't get the same XP/gold from minions if they kill too many too early Err unless you meant in DOTA
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 19:05
|
|
|
Funnel actually exists right now in preseason with mid and jungle games running smite and swapping roles back and forth to maximize gold from the new jungle item stacks. Pretty sure they are addressing it in the next patch.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 19:08
|
|
|
What I’m learning is that Dota 2 loving sucks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 19:14
|
|
|
njsykora posted:What I’m learning is that Dota 2 loving sucks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 19:27
|
|
|
Dota 2 was fine, just a different game, it's been heavily compromised since Valve realized it wasn't going to seriously compete with League, and now it's a weird mutant
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 19:35
|
|
|
Firebert posted:Funnel actually exists right now in preseason with mid and jungle games running smite and swapping roles back and forth to maximize gold from the new jungle item stacks. Pretty sure they are addressing it in the next patch. Woah really? Haven't seen anyone mentioning it, but that's kind of wild. It sort of doesn't sound like funneling so much as.. I guess exploiting the way jungling grants extra gold + xp for the jungle monsters? Super creative though
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 22:31
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMfp4zv1xRw
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 22:48
|
|
|
Weird Pumpkin posted:Woah really? it sounds badass and awesome and i wish i had someone to do that with lol loving hell
|
|
#
?
Dec 6, 2022 23:27
|
|
|
alright well this seems to just be a bug more than anything since you keep the pet and treat effect when you refund the item
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2022 02:09
|
|
|
the new jungle meta has been figured out https://twitter.com/zuhway/status/1600233682052136960
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2022 06:57
|
|
|
Anyone had a chance to play the new ARAM yet? I didn't realize they were changing it so much, but I'm a little worried about the entire lane now being in range of Rengar jumps, and I'm not sure why they thought loving Akali of all champions needs 20 free tenacity and faster energy regen.
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
Phenotype posted:Anyone had a chance to play the new ARAM yet? I didn't realize they were changing it so much, but I'm a little worried about the entire lane now being in range of Rengar jumps, and I'm not sure why they thought loving Akali of all champions needs 20 free tenacity and faster energy regen. Haven't had a chance yet, but in theory the akali thing was supposed to be in replacement for her damage dealt up/damage taken down buffs. Like moving Ashe to having specific cooldown increases on her skills
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2022 23:14
|
|
|
Hexgates sounded like a fun idea but they turn tower defenses into one hell of a meat grinder. The recommended rune loadouts are nice though especially if you haven't played a champ before.
njsykora fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Dec 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2022 23:41
|
|
|
the tower debris changes are such a baffling inclusion because the short list of "absolutely infuriatingly game warping champions on ARAM" are people like teemo, shaco, anivia, and veigar whose zone control becomes obscene when the already small lane is dropped down to the exact size of the space they can control with single abilities
|
|
#
?
Dec 7, 2022 23:44
|
|
|
Vermain posted:the tower debris changes are such a baffling inclusion because the short list of "absolutely infuriatingly game warping champions on ARAM" are people like teemo, shaco, anivia, and veigar whose zone control becomes obscene when the already small lane is dropped down to the exact size of the space they can control with single abilities its actually a logical inclusion because there are characters like bard, talon, etc who have parts of their kit that just dont matter
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2022 16:46
|
|
|
pog boyfriend posted:its actually a logical inclusion because there are characters like bard, talon, etc who have parts of their kit that just dont matter that was my assumption, too, but it veers into the same territory as buffed leblanc for me, which is that the gamemode is contorting to allow a small cross section of champions to be more effective at the wild expense of so many others who now have to try and death march their way through a full anivia ult to do anything
|
|
#
?
Dec 8, 2022 16:54
|
|
|
I'm genuinely baffled at the concept of balancing a game mode like ARAM at all. I looked at that and immediately thought 'this is a silly nonsense mode that doesn't matter and they threw in for fun'.
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2022 01:33
|
|
|
alright cool it with the ableism
|
|
#
?
Dec 9, 2022 09:53
|
|
|
Vermain posted:that was my assumption, too, but it veers into the same territory as buffed leblanc for me, which is that the gamemode is contorting to allow a small cross section of champions to be more effective at the wild expense of so many others who now have to try and death march their way through a full anivia ult to do anything then i throw a mf snowball and clock the bird in the dome. wutang
|
|
#
?
Dec 10, 2022 15:53
|
|
|
Cleretic posted:I'm genuinely baffled at the concept of balancing a game mode like ARAM at all. I looked at that and immediately thought 'this is a silly nonsense mode that doesn't matter and they threw in for fun'. me when i hear patch notes for some weird ums called dota in warcraft 3 18 years ago, shortly before going to clock in at my next shift at Blizzard Entertainment and sign No on paperwork asking if we should file to trademark the term
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 00:00
|
|
|
December 12th is the day to get all champs with game pass. Bonus reward is masterwork chest and key for PC players and for mobile players an emote chest
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 15:31
|
|
|
Barudak posted:December 12th is the day to get all champs with game pass. Bonus reward is masterwork chest and key for PC players and for mobile players an emote chest Me: spends a decade getting all champs Me with Xbox live: oh nice a free chest
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 15:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 08:12 |
|
|
I think the game pass is a good thing for getting new players into the game.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2022 16:08
|
|
