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i fly airplanes posted:"Naked imperial oppression" from the richest country in the Americas against the poorest country? Heavy rhetoric here. we've invaded countries because a banana company told us to
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Dec 5, 2022 23:27
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Marenghi posted:I've been following Haiti news through twitter long before the assassination. quote:The consensus was that Moďse was using gangs to suppress dissent armed with US weapons. But that was becoming too big a problem for the US so they had him killed and replaced with a new puppet, which they hoped would quell some of the unrest. The assassination was planned by men in Miami which tends to be where US coups in the Caribbean are launched from. Again it's conjecture but that's all we really have from Haiti, the gangs are supposed to be looking for the same arrangement they had with the assassinated president as an extra state police force. quote:The new guy is regarded as a puppet and wouldn't survive without US support. Which is why they need the intervention to solidify his position. Whether or not he survives has nothing to do with US support or not. The US supported Guaido in Venezuela and where did that end up going? The proposed solution by this author in The Nation: quote:During that time, the United States and Haiti’s “friends” in the international community have supported Henry’s continuation in office—in spite of the fact that Clesca’s Haitian Solution commission, which is associated with a broad coalition called the Montana Accord, has been offering a respectable civil-society and grassroots alternative to Henry the entire time. It's nice and feels good, but how is that going to stand up to armed gangs and a government with a military? Who's guaranteeing security? Here is the current Congressional briefing on Haiti: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12182 It notes: "The Biden Administration’s political approach to Haiti has evolved from supporting the Henry government to pushing Henry, the Montana Group, and other stakeholders to reach an inclusive political accord. In a July 6, 2022, Miami Herald editorial, Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs Brian Nichols said, “the time has come for ... steps that will allow Haiti to restore democratic order.”" That doesn't read as hard fast support for the Henry government to me. Here's the reality: Henry controls the government and armed forces. Moise's assassination had already created a power vacuum with gangs expanding and taking over large sections of Haiti's economic activity. How is ousting Henry and putting in a provisional government by nonprofits and civil society going to help? Do you think Henry is just going to sit there and let this happen? No, it's going to devolve into civil war. Which is why the current approach is to have peacekeepers/multinational forces to present a security alternative before any political reform is even possible. The US is not risking US lives on another country's internal affairs, which is why the task is being pushed to other countries to share that risk. The UN is deeply unpopular in Haiti for its past scandals so now the alternative is a multinational force. Canada is taking a leadership role partly because Haiti is a significant source of illegal immigrants over the US-Canada border over the years. The Montana Accord requires security before there is any peaceful transfer of power and elections to be held. Some, like the author of the Nation, read that as the US arming and putting support behind Henry. But what has Henry done at all to earn that support, and what evidence is there? Framing the situation in Haiti as US imperialism vs Haiti civil society and right wing vs left wing along that tangent is incredibly reductionist and very unhelpful. PS: Haiti recognizes Taiwan over the PRC and even China made overtures at the UN to push for a blockade on Haiti; they deny any motivation for political transition in Haiti to coincide with a switch of foreign relations
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Dec 5, 2022 23:36
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The US invaded and occupied Haiti for 20 years because Citibank told them too. But saying the US interests in Haiti is all about "Naked imperial oppression" is tinfoil hat territory. Maybe ifa should read into the history of Haiti and figure out why they are one of the poorest nations in the Americas. Edit: i fly airplanes posted:Is there a reason why you're using Twitter as your preferred news source? Because there was nowhere else to get news about Haiti. There was lots of online discussion about the discontent during the pandemic but very little in the media about it at the time. And what little there was barely queried the motives behind what was happening. quote:Do you have any evidence of other "US coups in the Caribbean" launched from Miami? Marenghi fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Dec 5, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:36
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Marenghi posted:The new guy is regarded as a puppet and wouldn't survive without US support. Which is why they need the intervention to solidify his position. Should the US then aim for regime change instead? What would it entail for the US to pull support from the Haitian government and how would that force the current president out of office?
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Dec 5, 2022 23:53
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i say swears online posted:we've invaded countries because a banana company told us to Marenghi posted:The US invaded and occupied Haiti for 20 years because Citibank told them too. You can relitigate slavery, French vs Spanish colonialism, that's not the purpose of this thread. quote:Okay you're just trolling now. EDIT: Owling Howl posted:Should the US then aim for regime change instead? What would it entail for the US to pull support from the Haitian government and how would that force the current president out of office? i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Dec 6, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:54
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i say swears online posted:we've invaded countries because a banana company told us to Which countries are you referring to? Edit: Nevermind, I looked it up and we did indeed invade Guatemala at the very least for that reason. It was United Fruit Company, which later merged with other companies to become Chiquita Banana. Koos Group fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Dec 6, 2022 |
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Dec 5, 2022 23:59
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i fly airplanes posted:Is the discourse in this thread ever going to move beyond CIA/Chiquita/Contras involvement decades ago? Or do some keep continuously keep bringing this history up like a Brooklyn podcast to shut down discussion of current events and developments? quote:You literally linked a Twitter account with a hammer and sickle.
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Dec 6, 2022 00:05
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i fly airplanes posted:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Haitian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Stabilisation_Mission_in_Haiti#Status_and_history gently caress off with this poo poo you disingenuous loving monster. The last occupation has barely ended and the freaks in this forum are aleady rock hard for another bout of trying to help poor benighted Haiti who needs yet another round of disciplining and good ol liberal guidance. Guffawing disgrace to humanity. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2022 01:42
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Koos Group posted:Which countries are you referring to? I thought this was another disingenuous question. Like the guy asking what coups were launched from Miami, as though the bay of pigs didn't happen. Or the other attempts to overthrow Castro. And even more recently that failed Venezuela coup to install Guaido. And then they say forget the past, as though these things haven't been happening and aren't still happening. I mean it's barely a few years since the semi-successful coup in Bolivia kicked off by the US controlled OAS saying there was voted fraud based off the vibe of the vote.
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Dec 6, 2022 02:57
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For those who want to understand why the Montana Accord is not an immediate solution, I suggest reading the following: https://www.csis.org/analysis/avoiding-disaster%97-narrowing-path-forward-haiti It's a good overview of the challenges and current status of dealing with the Henry government and touches also on Latin American affairs. Koos Group posted:Which countries are you referring to? i fly airplanes posted:Is the discourse in this thread ever going to move beyond CIA/Chiquita/Contras involvement decades ago? Marenghi posted:And then they say forget the past, as though these things haven't been happening and aren't still happening. I mean it's barely a few years since the semi-successful coup in Bolivia kicked off by the US controlled OAS saying there was voted fraud based off the vibe of the vote. No one said forget the past, but you're bringing up these things to kill discussion of anything relevant and useful with your obsession with American imperialism over Latin American politics. Particularly as you are making everything centered around America and denying agency to everything else. What do you think a Haitian-led solution looks like? Why do you think the Biden Administration is only passively involved in Haiti and not having the US lead on peacekeeping? Saying the US launched a coup in Bolivia through OAS while ignoring the clear context of Evo Morales seeking unprecedented terms and shutting down opposition and media—do you think the rest of Latin America wanted a repeat act of Maduro? Who do you think forms the OAS? For example, Nicaragua, under Ortega's fourth sham elections, claims the OAS as part of American hegemony—why is it that only authoritarian regimes seem to dislike it? Where is the outcry from newly socialist governments like in Chile and Colombia? i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Dec 6, 2022 |
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Dec 6, 2022 03:10
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VitalSigns posted:This might be a stupid question but if the gangs causing a bunch of problems are US puppets doing our bidding, how is a US-backed invasion possibly going to help anything. gonna try to make a better longer post later but I was basically rebutting the idea that current president is a US puppet and nobody else involved is Major elements of the anti government forces are ABSOLUTELY legacy shitheads from the Moise government and its uh paramilitary associates and I'm much more interested in their various agencies than in trying to figure out precisely who is the most US backed faction spoiler: I have some analogy thoughts regarding Sri Lanka, the country I know more about than other goons do (probably) and will not shut the gently caress up about (definitely)
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Dec 6, 2022 03:48
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i fly airplanes posted:Is the discourse in this thread ever going to move beyond CIA/Chiquita/Contras involvement decades ago? How about Lava Jato, the Bolivian coup, the '04 Haiti coup, or everything about Colombia prior to this year? Like, "that's old history" would be easier to accept if there existed a real break where the US was no longer heavily involved in manipulating states in South America & the Carribean.
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Dec 6, 2022 03:52
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i fly airplanes posted:
gently caress you and your completely debunked context (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2022 04:59
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Neurolimal posted:How about Lava Jato, the Bolivian coup, the '04 Haiti coup, or everything about Colombia prior to this year? Can you explain what the US involvement in Lava Jaro was? It's why Lula was jailed and involved the Paradise Papers and embezzling Petrobas funds, but I'm not making the connection to the US here. For the 2004 Haiti coup, are you suggesting that the US funded the rebels which took over the country and started sieging PAP, or funding the head of state that got flown out on US military aircraft and they had previously supported? Likewise, why do you make an arbitrary cut off about US involvement in Colombia "prior to this year"? Did US involvement stop only this year because Colombians elected a socialist government, and you define US foreign policy only by interfering against socialism? These events are all quite unique and complex and you're brushing them all in the same stroke as part of some general US agenda.
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Dec 6, 2022 05:58
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I don't think there's any need to get angry at anyone, even people arguing for imperial interventions are I think coming from a good place. When we see horrific and senseless suffering happening in the world, it's only human nature to say "well surely there must be something one can do, there must be someone who knows what to do and will come in and fix all this". And when a wealthy powerful neighboring government takes up this burden and says "oh yes, we care so much, we are humanitarians, we'll send in the cavalry right away", it's a very attractive proposition. They've got to really mean it right, because the alternative is a world where senseless suffering just happens and the people in charge like it that way and bad things happen to good people. So we'd much rather have hope, no matter how bad the track record of the imperial power is, hey maybe this time will be different, this will finally be the good invasion after so many disappointments, you know all those other times it was supposed to be the good invasion. It's completely understandable. Now I admit, I haven't yet found myself going "well maybe the guy who put pedophile warlords in charge of Afghanistan, double-tapped wedding parties with drone strikes to get all the first responders too, and incinerated an aid worker and his family as a last gently caress-you on his way out of the country really cares about these other poor foreigners", but I understand why someone would. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Dec 6, 2022 06:10
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Gran ravine has been setting neighborhoods on fire as they take territory. There will be a medical ship at jeremie december 11th to 17th and they need kreyol translators so it's suggested that diaspora check with their families for people who might be qualified and available Gonna note that most countries including the US continue to be substantially reticent to engage in the occupational mission to haiti that henry is pushing for, for good reason imo, and when you encounter a different take like "the US can't wait to occupy haiti" please subject it to extra scrutiny because it may just be substantially rooted in bullshit
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Dec 6, 2022 07:09
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A lot of talk about the US being the great devil responsible for all the world's evils, not a lot of talk about Haiti, which is still in genuine crisis. It'd be great if Haiti could have an election to get a popular government together, but I don't see how that can happen when it's not safe to travel through parts of the country, and multiple gangs controlling territory where they are already murdering with impunity. Hard to see how things could get worse. Haiti had already been relying on international aid, but now they can't receive or distribute aid at all, so the international community can either shrug off Haiti or they can try more complex involvement
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Dec 6, 2022 07:41
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i fly airplanes posted:"Naked imperial oppression" from the richest country in the Americas against the poorest country? Heavy rhetoric here. It’s not “heavy rhetoric”, it’s actual historical truth. There has never once been a moment where United States intervened in Haiti for anything other than nakedly imperialistic reasons. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 6, 2022 |
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Dec 6, 2022 17:07
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i fly airplanes posted:For those who want to understand why the Montana Accord is not an immediate solution, I suggest reading the following: https://www.csis.org/analysis/avoiding-disaster%97-narrowing-path-forward-haiti If you’re defending the OAS’ actions in Bolivia you are not interested in examining the actual facts of the matter.
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Dec 6, 2022 17:11
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i fly airplanes posted:"Naked imperial oppression" from the richest country in the Americas against the poorest country? Heavy rhetoric here. i fly airplanes posted:Saying the US launched a coup in Bolivia through OAS while ignoring the clear context of Evo Morales seeking unprecedented terms and shutting down opposition and media—do you think the rest of Latin America wanted a repeat act of Maduro? Who do you think forms the OAS? https://jacobin.com/2019/12/bolivia-coup-evo-morales-jeanine-anez I know its hard to accept, but contrary to what you learned in social studies, the US historically, and within recent history, have not been the good guys in LatAm.
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Dec 6, 2022 17:18
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SlothfulCobra posted:A lot of talk about the US being the great devil responsible for all the world's evils, not a lot of talk about Haiti, which is still in genuine crisis. Yes its a bad situation, but it can always become worse. An intervention would be justified if only a clear-headed and honest (lol) analysis would show that it would likely suceed. I haven't seen any evidence why that would be the case given ample contrary experience. It's completely bizarre that some people (and mods) in this thread have decided that cultural and historical context don't exist. It strikes of motivated reasoning.
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Dec 6, 2022 17:25
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The only intervention that might have actual humanitarian goals would something led by, like, Cuba.
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Dec 6, 2022 17:27
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Nucleic Acids posted:The only intervention that might have actual humanitarian goals would something led by, like, Cuba. guess I have to say for the record that this isn't true for the same reasons discussed last time when people were theorycrafting such amazing takes as "why not send the Swiss Guard??" Don't throw absolutes like this into a discussion that needs more nuance and less of this obvious thing where the commentary centers ideological disfavor for America as the most important cause and makes Haiti or what is happening to people there an incidental topic heirarchically underneath that primary goal. You could have a humanitarian mission from the UN, or even one that could actually work, even if that's just improvement relative to the present condition in Haiti. The important questions are "what factors are making an intervention more or less likely as time goes on" and "what factors would have to go into effective aid to prevent it from mirroring the worst or most self-serving interventions of the past" Right now I'm very partial to the conclusions on the Montana Accord but not completely, because I think their blueprint for reformed governance presumes too much instantaneous legitimacy over a domestic condition of gangs being the dominant force in most of the country.
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Dec 7, 2022 00:06
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What are the factors that would you would like to see that make a foreign military occupation and violent pacification campaign against the civilian population more likely to be a good thing for the occupied country. e: the fact that you can only even understand the policy being proposed through context is fairly damning imo. if you showed me all the posts in favor of the the "complex involvement" without knowing the context and pointed a gun at my head I couldn't even attempt to explain what they were advocating, because none of them want to actually name it because it's so obviously evil and doomed to failure for their pretend goal of helping Haitians. It has to be obfuscated and mystified with ridiculous insincere pseudo-woke jargon for any posters mind outside of Stormfront to countenance. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) Zedhe Khoja fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Dec 7, 2022 |
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Dec 7, 2022 00:16
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Jesus christ dude and here I was juuuust about ready to foolishly waste sincere time and real effort to your question right before that whopper edit
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Dec 7, 2022 00:29
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In actual news that don't involve American goons fawning over their evil empire, https://www.infobae.com/america/ame...cion-al-estado/ Cristina was live streaming her response right after the verdict, talking about the parallel state and all that, in case you care about Latin American politics at all.
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Dec 7, 2022 01:06
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advanced statsman posted:In actual news that don't involve American goons fawning over their evil empire, https://www.infobae.com/america/ame...cion-al-estado/ Hm, that's interesting (and I may peripherally know a guy involved in the suspicious contracts lol). Would you say that this is a stitch-up, a politically motivated conviction for things everyone does, or a legit good conviction? I find Argentinian politics/history interesting but am, uh, not comfortably familiar with current affairs.
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Dec 7, 2022 01:19
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Staluigi posted:You could have a humanitarian mission from the UN, or even one that could actually work, even if that's just improvement relative to the present condition in Haiti. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-63707429.amp By the way, neighboring Dominican Republic started deporting enmasse people suspected to be Haitian (black, obviously) and the only people who spoke against it was the UN HCR and the US. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/11/24/dominican-deportations-to-haiti-fuel-growing-fears-frustration Nucleic Acids posted:The only intervention that might have actual humanitarian goals would something led by, like, Cuba. i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 7, 2022 |
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Dec 7, 2022 01:40
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Has Cuba volunteered to lead a force? Haiti sounds like one of those situations where you end up having to hope for the “least horrible” option to prevail.
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Dec 7, 2022 01:43
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i fly airplanes posted:
DR is back to using a genuine shibboleth ("perejil" with a trilled r) to round up Haitians when not just defaulting to skin tone lol At least this time it's just crude deportation in abysmal concentration conditions, as opposed to how it went under Rafael Trujillo with the kout kouto
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Dec 7, 2022 02:06
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Eric Cantonese posted:Has Cuba volunteered to lead a force? Haiti sounds like one of those situations where you end up having to hope for the “least horrible” option to prevail. Staluigi posted:guess I have to say for the record that this isn't true for the same reasons discussed last time when people were theorycrafting such amazing takes as "why not send the Swiss Guard??" i fly airplanes posted:"but America is the biggest warlord of them all!" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) cat botherer fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Dec 7, 2022 |
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Dec 7, 2022 02:08
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Eric Cantonese posted:Has Cuba volunteered to lead a force? Haiti sounds like one of those situations where you end up having to hope for the “least horrible” option to prevail.
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Dec 7, 2022 03:16
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Cicero posted:Would Cuba be capable? They're of a similar population size to Haiti, and while they're much better off development-wise, they're not exactly rich either. I think Cuba has come up in the discussions in this thread because they're one of the few nations in the region that is (from what I can tell) not totally crippled right now and not very beholden to US influence.
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Dec 7, 2022 03:19
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It is certainly appropriate to be critical of potential US involvement in an intervention in Haiti, but it would be vastly more interesting to talk about details on the ground and specifics of actual proposals than simply implying other posters are fascists.
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Dec 7, 2022 04:14
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Eric Cantonese posted:I think Cuba has come up in the discussions in this thread because they're one of the few nations in the region that is (from what I can tell) not totally crippled right now and not very beholden to US influence. Cuba is under an embargo—one that the regime continuously lobbies against—how does that not make them beholden to US influence? It's not just carrots in foreign policy, it's also sticks. Both countries are major sources of migrants: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/15/historic-numbers-cubans-haitians-travel-to-usa/10358418002/
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Dec 7, 2022 12:27
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i fly airplanes posted:Cuba is under an embargo—one that the regime continuously lobbies against—how does that not make them beholden to US influence? It's not just carrots in foreign policy, it's also sticks. This is nonsense. North Korea are under sanctions, does that make them beholden to US influence?
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Dec 7, 2022 14:52
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Marenghi posted:This is nonsense. North Korea are under sanctions, does that make them beholden to US influence? Love the Latin American countries of North Korea and the USA
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Dec 7, 2022 15:41
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If Cuba is still too beholden to US influence, who should be in charge of any international effort to restore order in Haiti? I'm pretty sure China would not be interested.
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Dec 7, 2022 15:55
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Eric Cantonese posted:If Cuba is still too beholden to US influence, who should be in charge of any international effort to restore order in Haiti? I'm pretty sure China would not be interested. No one is interested. The US and Canada would like to avoid a refugee crisis and I'm sure there's some pressure to "do something" but it's not like Haiti has strategic natural resources or is a vital component of international trade. If someone did intervene they would have to take control from a number of armed groups with different allegiances and goals. You either do it on behalf of an unpopular government or unseat the government - which is effectively a coup - and provide oversight and security for new elections which would deligitimize the new government. You own whatever inevitable violence and misery unfolds during this process and you gain nothing for it. It would probably be harder for the US and the UN to do it given history but I don't see how anyone could do it without it turning into a shitshow people will litigate for a century.
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Dec 7, 2022 16:32
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UN could lease or sell the mandate to the highest bidding Caribbean cruise company and then use that income for humanitarian aid. Labadee's already peaceful, might as well expand from there.
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Dec 7, 2022 16:33
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