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nate fisher posted:One thing that creeped me out and made me wonder, was when Gage said Norma cheated on Jud with all his friends and they laughed at him. Was it true? It is such a contradiction to the way King presented her up to that point that it is very jarring and sad. I recently reread Pet Sematary, and I was wondering about that, too. Then again, I think Jud mentions visiting a sex worker himself, so 
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Dec 7, 2022 13:04
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Leave posted:I recently reread Pet Sematary, and I was wondering about that, too. Then again, I think Jud mentions visiting a sex worker himself, so Mat Cauthon posted:The demon only says things that are hurtful but actually happened, so my take has always been that yeah it was true. I think it's even hinted at in Jud's recollection of what happened with the WW2 soldier that got brought back wrong - the day he pulls up to his house and sees all his friends waiting there for him he remarks that Norma's behavior is a little off even though she couldn't possibly know what was going on. I reread these parts today. I remember Timmy Baterman, the WW2 solider, telling the truths to everyone ("It was only the bad it only wanted to talk about. It was only the bad it wanted us to remember because it was bad..."), I just forgot what he said about Jud. Interesting while he called Jud a whoremonger and Alan a cuckold, it seems like telling Jud he was a cuckold at that point would have done more damage than a whoremonger. It would have destroyed his life, marriage, and friendships. So that is about the only thing that gives me pause (of course the cheating could have happened later). I don't make the connection as Mat does in relation to the Norma's behavior. Norma even tells Jud when they leave to run if needed and forget the others if things go bad. Still I do agree Gage was telling the truth. I did google it and some people claim it was just a distraction and not true, but nah. That said one thing Gage said I don't buy which almost makes me doubt the whole thing: Spoiler text from book just in case: “Hello, Jud,” Gage piped in a babyish but perfectly understandable voice. “I’ve come to send your rotten, stinking old soul straight to hell.” “Norma’s dead, and there’ll be no one to mourn you,” Gage said. “What a cheap slut she was. She hosed every one of your friends, Jud. She let them put it up her rear end. That’s how she liked it best. She’s burning down in hell, arthritis and all. I saw her there, Jud. I saw her there.” “Listen, Jud,” it whispered—and then its mouth hung open, baring small milk teeth, and although the lips did not move, Norma’s voice issued forth. “I laughed at you! We all laughed at you! How we laaaaaaauuughed—” “Stop it!” The cleaver jittered in his hand. “We did it in our bed, Herk and I did it, I did with George, I did it with all of them. I knew about your whores but you never knew you married a whore and how we laughed, Jud! We rutted together and we laaaaaauuughed at—” The part about hell, I do think Gage could be lying which makes it possible that he is lying about the whole thing. I doubt it tho. Still this is what King does so good. The Timmy Baterman is a side story just a few pages long, but this story that Jud tells sticks with you and is horrifying in its own way. What Gage tells Jud to me is more horrifying and sadder than anything Gage could do with a scalpel to him.
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Dec 7, 2022 17:12
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nate fisher posted:One thing that creeped me out and made me wonder, was when Gage said Norma cheated on Jud with all his friends and they laughed at him. Was it true? It is such a contradiction to the way King presented her up to that point that it is very jarring and sad. my question related to that is when gage dies again, he becomes himself for a brief second and screams for dad, was that the daemon or whatever? because i could see thing realizing it can go for broke with louis at this point and just twisting the knife one last time nate fisher posted:I reread these parts today. I remember Timmy Baterman, the WW2 solider, telling the truths to everyone ("It was only the bad it only wanted to talk about. It was only the bad it wanted us to remember because it was bad..."), I just forgot what he said about Jud. Interesting while he called Jud a whoremonger and Alan a cuckold, it seems like telling Jud he was a cuckold at that point would have done more damage than a whoremonger. It would have destroyed his life, marriage, and friendships. So that is about the only thing that gives me pause (of course the cheating could have happened later). I don't make the connection as Mat does in relation to the Norma's behavior. Norma even tells Jud when they leave to run if needed and forget the others if things go bad. Still I do agree Gage was telling the truth. I did google it and some people claim it was just a distraction and not true, but nah. That said one thing Gage said I don't buy which almost makes me doubt the whole thing: thats why i like when all the cosmic poo poo is vague. like is hell a actual place in the story, who knows,
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Dec 7, 2022 19:23
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On a bright note, and spoilered just in case; King did say that Ellie grew up to be happy, even though she still has nightmares about the Pet Sematary.
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Dec 7, 2022 23:25
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I think Gage playing the mind tricks and using the voice fuckery was like Regan in the Exorcist when the demon was trying to manipulate the preist.
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Dec 8, 2022 00:48
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nate fisher posted:I reread these parts today. I remember Timmy Baterman, the WW2 solider, telling the truths to everyone ("It was only the bad it only wanted to talk about. It was only the bad it wanted us to remember because it was bad..."), I just forgot what he said about Jud. Interesting while he called Jud a whoremonger and Alan a cuckold, it seems like telling Jud he was a cuckold at that point would have done more damage than a whoremonger. It would have destroyed his life, marriage, and friendships. So that is about the only thing that gives me pause (of course the cheating could have happened later). I don't make the connection as Mat does in relation to the Norma's behavior. Norma even tells Jud when they leave to run if needed and forget the others if things go bad. Still I do agree Gage was telling the truth. I did google it and some people claim it was just a distraction and not true, but nah. That said one thing Gage said I don't buy which almost makes me doubt the whole thing: One thing that stands out is that the things that each man is accused of by the Baterman zombie to some extent relates to lies that they tell themselves, knowingly or unknowingly. Purinton with a wife who is far too young for him, Benson pretending to have a nest egg in the bank to get his relatives to curry favor, Anderson using his position to play "the big cheese" with money that isn't his, Jud going to the brothels thinking he's protecting his wife from knowing because "something in her would have died forever". The demon telling Jud at that moment that he was being cuckolded kind of fits with that but it doesn't IMO relate so closely to how the demon focuses specifically on breaking down the pride each of the men has in their own self image. Another interpretation is that in some folklore or theology, demons like to do harm but they love to maximize corruption and degradation. So it told the secrets that played up the opportunity for more human wreckage, and the one that would distract the men from ending it. The last one, and this is part of my own personal interpretation, is that the demon knew it was going to be back one day and that it wanted to save the deepest betrayal for when it would be the most damaging and distracting for Jud. Jud can't restrain himself when he hears it and that's what does him in (although arguably he was very unlikely to survive regardless). Like you said, amazing effective storytelling for what is 5-6 pages of text. Dapper_Swindler posted:my question related to that is when gage dies again, he becomes himself for a brief second and screams for dad, was that the daemon or whatever? because i could see thing realizing it can go for broke with louis at this point and just twisting the knife one last time IMO it is actually the kid, the demon has fled at that point because the game is up.
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Dec 8, 2022 00:59
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BiggerBoat posted:I think Gage playing the mind tricks and using the voice fuckery was like Regan in the Exorcist when the demon was trying to manipulate the priest. Totally  I'd rather believe that than the alternative really.
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Dec 8, 2022 01:00
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I guess they're taking another shot at the Dark Tower stuff. https://twitter.com/flanaganfilm/status/1600869652908761089?t=wjILQsWKUZdYlF4FlbhDxA&s=19 A series probably has a better chance of doing it right than a movie but who knows at this point. Would almost prefer them to just leave it alone at this point.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:25
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Just do a Wizard & Glass stand alone season 1 and if it does good, come back with book 1.
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Dec 8, 2022 17:35
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Flanagan is probably the best person they could have picked. His take on Dr. Sleep really threaded the needle respecting two different source materials. Scott Eastwood as Roland would be perfect casting.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:02
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Mat Cauthon posted:One thing that stands out is that the things that each man is accused of by the Baterman zombie to some extent relates to lies that they tell themselves, knowingly or unknowingly. Purinton with a wife who is far too young for him, Benson pretending to have a nest egg in the bank to get his relatives to curry favor, Anderson using his position to play "the big cheese" with money that isn't his, Jud going to the brothels thinking he's protecting his wife from knowing because "something in her would have died forever". The demon telling Jud at that moment that he was being cuckolded kind of fits with that but it doesn't IMO relate so closely to how the demon focuses specifically on breaking down the pride each of the men has in their own self image. i kinda figured. i like that the place actually did work at one point but it got chaos corrupted to hell and back and it just crack pings louis even hard because you can see the rational of the dumb thing he is doing very clearly. i thing king makes horror genuin horror best when he paints it as an unavoidable tragedy but you can see why the characters make the choices.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:16
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I like Flanagans work but never got The Dark Tower vibe. I read 3 or 4 books but never found any of them really entertaining. I recall it mostly as one big snoozefest but at this point I hardly remember anything about it. Roland and Blaine are basically the only characters I can name from the top of my head. Might give it another go some day, maybe if/when this new serie turns out to be good.
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Dec 8, 2022 18:19
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Books 2 and 3 are the peak of the series, if you don't like those then don't bother continuing
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Dec 8, 2022 18:23
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Book 4, Wizard and Glass, is actually the peak of the series. I would suggest reading that one even if you don’t read any of the others. It is like top 10 King of all time and it can easily work as a standalone story (Roland tells the story of his past).
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Dec 8, 2022 18:47
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nate fisher posted:Book 4, Wizard and Glass, is actually the peak of the series. I would suggest reading that one even if you don’t read any of the others. It is like top 10 King of all time and it can easily work as a standalone story (Roland tells the story of his past). Yeah and it basically stands alone since it’s a retrospectical.
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Dec 8, 2022 19:32
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I didn’t like 2. 3 is really good.
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Dec 8, 2022 19:38
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oldpainless posted:I didn’t like 2. 3 is really good. Book 2 is right in King's cocaine/booze era and it shows. Some of my favorite jokes are in that one, mostly in the Eddie plot. (The less said about the Susannah/Detta dialogue, the better.)
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Dec 8, 2022 19:54
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Yeah, the structure of 2 isn't my favorite. 3 is kind of the prototypical book in that series, in that it kind of spends the longest on the mode that works best in the other books, exploring this bizarre world, sprinkling in mythology, people loving ghosts, alternate worlds, little pieces of our world appearing like wreckage from a sunken ship washing ashore, escape from New York setpieces, that sort of thing.
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Dec 8, 2022 22:47
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Never read any of The Dark Tower books. I've already heard and read that the ending is unsatisfactory, even by King standards, so I can't bring myself to be bothered investing that much time into them. There's, what, six books? I'm not wild about westerns and King going full fantasy and being ungrounded are the books that I enjoy the least. Maybe when I'm old and in a nursing home with nothing else to do I'll get the entire series and have at it.
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Dec 9, 2022 02:00
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The ending is fine. There’s a stupid ending that he added after the series was finished for some reason that is terrible, but just ignore that and there’s no problem. If I recall there’s even a note he put in the last book that says “this is the real ending, you probably shouldn’t even read the additional ending.”
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Dec 9, 2022 02:13
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RCarr posted:The ending is fine. There’s a stupid ending that he added after the series was finished for some reason that is terrible, but just ignore that and there’s no problem. The real ending is even worse and more offensive than the additional ending. The additional ending didn't bother me as much on a reread as it did the first time, but I was also not as emotionally invested in the books on a reread. The "real ending," on the other hand, is still the author just pissing in your face. "All those characters you loved and empathized with over these thousands of pages, haha, they don't loving matter."
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Dec 9, 2022 02:18
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Phanatic posted:The real ending is even worse and more offensive than the additional ending. A corny reunion of all the dead characters where everything is magically ok and everyone is happy is a giant cop out and is stupid in my opinion I liked the real ending. It fits the series.
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Dec 9, 2022 02:25
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RCarr posted:A corny reunion of all the dead characters where everything is magically ok and everyone is happy is a giant cop out and is stupid in my opinion It’s loving vile. Your spouse, whom you love, dies. You meet this other individual who looks exactly the same as your spouse, and who even has the same name and age as your spouse, and shares much of your spouse’s memories and experiences up to a certain point. But this is an entirely different person, someone formed of different struggles and different experiences and has absolutely none of the experiences like “meeting you” and “falling in love with you” and “engaging in heroic acts with and without you” and “transforming from desperate junkie to noble and brave human being, in no small part with your existence. He shares not a single memory of the time you spent with your husband, or any of the other friends you made together or things you did together. The Susannah Dean that we’ve read all these pages about and been led to understand is a certain kind of person would not have this reaction to this situation:  For this ending to be true, King would have had to be lying to us all along about *who Susannah is*. Or, you know, he just wrote himself into a corner and said “gently caress it.”
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Dec 9, 2022 02:51
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Phanatic posted:It’s loving vile. Your spouse, whom you love, dies. You meet this other individual who looks exactly the same as your spouse, and who even has the same name and age as your spouse, and shares much of your spouse’s memories and experiences up to a certain point. But this is an entirely different person, someone formed of different struggles and different experiences and has absolutely none of the experiences like “meeting you” and “falling in love with you” and “engaging in heroic acts with and without you” and “transforming from desperate junkie to noble and brave human being, in no small part with your existence. He shares not a single memory of the time you spent with your husband, or any of the other friends you made together or things you did together. The Susannah Dean that we’ve read all these pages about and been led to understand is a certain kind of person would not have this reaction to this situation: Your spoiler sounds a lot like the ending of Avengers End Game.
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Dec 9, 2022 02:58
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 All I could think of reading that
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Dec 9, 2022 03:10
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ruddiger posted:Your spoiler sounds a lot like the ending of Avengers End Game. Sort of, but I think it's the reverse. What happens is that Susannah and Roland are the only two left, everyone else has been killed. Susannah eventually decides that she's too broken to go on, she just can't take the pain and loss, and has a certainty that if she abandons the quest she'll find some other world out there somewhere where her friends never died and are still alive, but if she continues Roland will use her up to. So she leaves, and whether you call it fate or ka or authorial fiat a door appears for her and she goes through it and she finds herself in a world where Jake and Eddie are still alive. But they're still alive because they never met Roland, never did any of the things Eddie and Jake did with Roland and Susannah. Again, they don't *know who the gently caress this person is*, but she seems familiar to them, like they're *supposed* to know her, and this is good enough for her even though what you'd actually think going through this is that these are zimboes wearing the faces of your dead loved ones like a skinsuit. That's pretty much the opposite of the snap. If your wife gets obliterated in the snap and then poofs back into existence 4 years later (or whatever it was), okay, there's potential for some serious awkwardness. Maybe you're hooking up with her sister now, or maybe you've just accepted her death and mourned and moved on with your life, but by any measure this person who stands before you now is the same person who disappeared 4 years ago. She knows you, she loves you, she remembers why she fell in love with you and how painful bearing your child was and remembers that rough patch when you both lost your jobs and weren't sure what you were going to do. She's unaware of what the past 4 years have bean like for *you*, but you still have that shared experience up until that point. You're a different person, she isn't. In *that* situation if Susannah stayed in the Avengerverse while Eddie turned to dust and then got resurrected 4 years later, rejoicing is her reaction.
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Dec 9, 2022 03:19
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nate fisher posted:The Timmy Baterman is a side story just a few pages long, but this story that Jud tells sticks with you and is horrifying in its own way. Funny you say that, because the Timmy Baterman story is what sticks with me the hardest from that book. Something about the way it is written I can picture it in my brain with perfect clarity, the whole thing bathed in that sick glow you get from a winter sunset. I also read it for the first time sitting outside on a 45 degree day that was heavily overcast and was one gently caress of a mood-setter.
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Dec 10, 2022 07:02
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Continued misery and suffering in service of one man's doomed quest, or peace with a version of a person I love who is no longer dead. Wow, difficult choice.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:39
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Rev. Bleech_ posted:Funny you say that, because the Timmy Baterman story is what sticks with me the hardest from that book. Something about the way it is written I can picture it in my brain with perfect clarity, the whole thing bathed in that sick glow you get from a winter sunset. I also read it for the first time sitting outside on a 45 degree day that was heavily overcast and was one gently caress of a mood-setter. yeah, i love it because i like the implication that most of the town knew about the cemetery/burial ground and kinda accepted the eldritch evils presence as kinda of a teaching moment for kids and eventually it kinda fades out of memory after one guy goes to far with it and its only until some out of towner comes around that the thing starts stirring again. idk king is at his best when the monster is more presence or a eldritch entity that is more atmosphere/blight upon the land then some oofty goofty monster. its why i like remedy games like alan wake/control because they learn from that.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:58
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Phanatic posted:Sort of, but I think it's the reverse. The Dark Tower partial ending is pretty much the same as a certain part of JoJos Bizarre Adventure. The "no don't read this" part is the natural ending to what the Gunslinger started, even though he obviously grew, with a bit of hope in there that everything would end up well next time.
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Dec 11, 2022 19:38
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I can't remember but what is the significance of Roland starting from the beginning of his journey with the Horn of Eld? What was it about this that meant his quest would be different this time? I forget what the horn was used for in the first place. Did he lose it at Jericho Hill?
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Dec 12, 2022 16:15
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Dark Tower: Yeah, and he was supposed to blow it when he got to the tower. You can imagine that's there's a path to the tower where he doesn't make mistakes he makes; letting Jake fall, losing the horn, etc. What happens at the end? Maybe he gets his happy ending.
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Dec 12, 2022 16:33
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I seem to remember perhaps SK himself mentioning that letting Jake fall was specifically the act that doomed him during the current cycle. The Horn of Eld was, I think, just supposed to be a symbol of him doing better the next time around, rather than being something critical to the plot as such. This hangs together with the fact that when he gets kicked back to the desert, it's right before that part where he hosed Up The Run
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Dec 12, 2022 19:46
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mdemone posted:I seem to remember perhaps SK himself mentioning that letting Jake fall was specifically the act that doomed him during the current cycle. The Horn of Eld was, I think, just supposed to be a symbol of him doing better the next time around, rather than being something critical to the plot as such. I hadn't read that but it makes sense.
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Dec 12, 2022 21:08
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I'm enjoying 11/22/1963, says I'm 63% through and it hasn't really been dragging but honestly both King and the main character come off as such lame rear end dorks for: A.) The relentless incessent nostalgia (i get it im reading a stephen king novel about time travel but it starts to grate) OH SHUCKS THESE MILKSHAKES TASTE SO GOOD TIME TO STAY HERE WHERE I CAN LINDY HOP. dude you're like a 35 year old in 2007 or w/e are you okay. I get that he had nothing going on in his modern life though. Al picked the perfect dude. Glad he mentions seeing poor people and a couple times he's like woah I saw a segregation but it's just King's soul in this dude's body. B.) And just the idea that JFK was some positive or restraining force, that saving him would stop Vietnam or what have you. Like ohmigosh if only we could save *him*. This is common, of course, I give them some slack for that cuz at least Al also seems at the very least Kennedy not dying is just the closest major butterfly effect and its more just causing huge ripples and hoping they result randomly in a better universe. What really bothers me is that the main character is so contemptuous of Oswald, which like hey I get it he beats his wife, but then at the same time main character is all like OH but I wouldn't wish death on this psycho segregationist talking about stopping racial mongrelization ex general Edwin Walker. At one point he just goes like "golly at most I'd like someone to give Walker a FIRM SHAKING. Now time for me to reminisce all tragically and poignantly about how I saw a COLORED bathroom sign that one time." I guess I'd call all of the above boomer liberalism and it's pretty obnoxious. God King is always such a weird dork about anything involving sex too. Sugargrip?? Sugargrip?? Lol Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 05:33
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Like the main character is so scornful of Oswald, his ideologies, his appearance, his behavior, and talks about how Oswald seems to radiate evil, we get that for chapters, and then...this happens  Gosh golly at least you remembered the time you saw segregation! Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 05:44
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Unrelated to the discourse on how the 35 year old protagonist experiences the 60's, Walker was an interesting character. He was kind of a joke back then for being that kind of extremist and soon after the 60's destroyed any status he had by repeatedly being caught by police soliciting sex from police officers in public restrooms. Spoilers for 11/22/63 Saving Kennedy essentially creates a hell timeline because Kennedy is incapable of dealing with anything due to his illnesses and everything goes off the rails in a ridiculous fashion.
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Dec 15, 2022 03:40
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Kosmo Gallion posted:I can't remember but what is the significance of Roland starting from the beginning of his journey with the Horn of Eld? What was it about this that meant his quest would be different this time? I forget what the horn was used for in the first place. Did he lose it at Jericho Hill? It's literally this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olifant_(instrument)
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Dec 15, 2022 03:58
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UK Goon here apparently addicted to embarrassing myself... Somewhat of a eureka moment from back in the pre-internet days (yes I am old what of it). I hadn't read or seen Pet Sematary yet and I just presumed that was the American spelling of cemetery like colour/color aluminum/aluminium and the like. Probably held onto that belief for over a decade. KIIIIIIING 
franco fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 06:15
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Just finished Salem's Lot. I liked it, but didn't love it. Question though, in the last chapter Barlow is hiding in a root cellar that is padlocked shut and Ben has to take an axe to the door. Who padlocked the door? Did the vampires lock it and just teleport to the other side? Can they do that? deoju fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 06:24
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