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For eth / thorn I like then and think. Being at the start of a word and with different vowels following them, the sounds, or at least the differences, tend to be more stable across dialects (then, the, these, there vs think, thirteen, thirst). Sure there are some dialects that say den or fink, but I don't think there are many where the sounds have merged. The difference is in whether the sound is voiced or not; try to say only the th in thing (or f in finger) and notice what your throat/vocal chords are doing. You're basically just hissing. Then do the same thing with "then". Pyf's law: as the length of a thread increase, the chance of language chat approaches 1.
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Dec 9, 2022 09:39
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BrigadierSensible posted:But on the language stuff: My dad learned English as a second language in Bengalaru. So when he moved to Australia, everybody he met thought that he was talking like Little Lord Fauntleroy because he was taught the ye olde posh formal ways of speaking English. Given his first job in Australia was working in Burnie, (a small town in Tasmania), the blokes at the cricket club soon taught him how to speak Australian. oval office It's a much less extreme anecdote but I lived in a somewhat posh part of England from the age of 4-7 before moving back to Australia to a public school. I had to lose the accent pretty quickly because it absolutely did not fit in, but it apparently never went completely away, to the extent where I was 18 and working in bars and a few old timers would ask me where I was from, and keep pressing until I mentioned living in England for a bit as a kid, at which point they went "ahh there it is then".
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Dec 9, 2022 11:48
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The Parthenon Marbles/Elgin Marbles are closer to being repatriated. Excellent news if you're into... not hoarding looted artifacts.  The Parthenon Marbles in the British Museum. The story of these sculptures, if you're not familiar, goes a bit like this. Thomas Bruce, 7th Earl of Elgin, was a Scottish diplomat serving as ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1799 to 1803.  Elgin in 1788, probably thinking about artifacts. At the time, the Ottoman Empire stretched from modern Moldova to Jordan, recently losing Egypt to Napoleonic France, Britain's political rival. This expanse included Greece, who gained full independence in 1832. Elgin initially set out with a team of painters, draughtsmen and modellers to document the sculptures and monuments of Athens. Though no evidence of this document exists, he claims to have been granted a decree from the government of the Ottoman Empire in 1801 permitting him to affix scaffolding to the Parthenon, take casts, and crucially, "...take away any pieces of stone with old inscriptions or figures thereon."  An example of an Ottoman firman. Imagine a document like this. That's what Elgin's team did! The decision to actually take stuff was made by Elgin's chaplain, and take they did. During the colonial era, Britain went buck-loving-wild snatching up art--they came away with enormous quantities of sculptures created in the 5th century BCE by sculptor Phidias (author of the Statue of Zeus at Olympia, one of the Seven Wonders of the Classical World). The process of "collection" spanned from 1801-1817 and included a shipwreck and three-year-long recovery effort, and cost Elgin £75,000 (£4.2mil in 2022, or $5.5mil USD).  A manifest from the Mentor, Elgin's ship. That's a lot of marble. What do you do with that much stone? Sell it, of course! However, we all know that preowned goods sell for less than new, Elgin fenced it to the British Government for a bargain £35,000 (£2.4mil, $2.9mil USD) in 1816. At that price, you'd think it was involved in a crime somehow. There was considerable pushback and controversy, including from Lord Byron, who had been in Greece during their War of Independence.  "Give that poo poo back" Parliament cleared Elgin of wrongdoing, for both the Marbles and another set of questionably-acquired relics (the Tweddell Remains Affair; a British scholar died in Athens during Elgin's tenure there, Elgin got his letters and notebooks which included architectural drawings). -- It's not exactly a secret that the British Museum houses a massive amount of looted artifacts from its colonial possessions, John Oliver did a segment on this recently. The story does have some hilarious details though, so I felt compelled to give it a mention--also, the news of getting closer to an agreement is very recent.
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Dec 9, 2022 17:48
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well i knew the overall gist of it but i did not know that elgin apparently lost money on the endeavor not only an rear end in a top hat, but also an idiot
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Dec 9, 2022 17:57
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"Elgin" is nowhere to be found in the British Museum. The curators prefer not to draw attention to the manner in which they were "acquired" One of the very first things I saw when I walked in was an Egyptian obelisk with an inscription from the early 19th century from the such and such cavalry boasting about how they captured this obelisk for the king. I wonder how much of a fight the obelisk put up before surrendering
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Dec 9, 2022 18:02
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Also, kindof related, just read that Musée de l'Homme in Paris has tens of thousands of human skulls and other remains of colonized peoples, and they deliberately withhold provenance. They claim they will repatriate, but only by "nominal identification", which apparently means only remains from a specifically named individual who is related to the one requesting repatriation.
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Dec 9, 2022 18:03
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Carthag Tuek posted:Also, kindof related, just read that Musée de l'Homme in Paris has tens of thousands of human skulls and other remains of colonized peoples, and they deliberately withhold provenance. They claim they will repatriate, but only by "nominal identification", which apparently means only remains from a specifically named individual who is related to the one requesting repatriation.  Like claiming a lost pet, where you tell someone an identifying detail to confirm that it is indeed yours. Except the person with it doesn't know or care, and any answer is wrong, sorry, this person stays in our lexan box forever.Otherwise, any random person from a former colony should walk in saying "yeah, that's my cousin" and bring those remains back for burial. One weird trick imperialists hate!
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Dec 9, 2022 18:13
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Yeah.. One solution would be to establish provenance and then accept repatriation requests from governments/institutions/etc... Just because there aren't any living relatives (what with all the genocides), that doesn't mean it's right to keep 20,000 skulls in a basement and go nuh uh you didnt say the magic word e: im a dummy Carthag Tuek has a new favorite as of 18:26 on Dec 9, 2022 |
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Dec 9, 2022 18:21
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AveMachina posted:The Parthenon Marbles/Elgin Marbles are closer to being repatriated. Excellent news if you're into... not hoarding looted artifacts. Excellent. If they also return Gibraltar to Spain, then maybe we'll let them back into the EU. (Without all the special exemptions they formerly had, of course.)
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Dec 9, 2022 18:45
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NFX posted:For eth / thorn I like then and think. Being at the start of a word and with different vowels following them, the sounds, or at least the differences, tend to be more stable across dialects (then, the, these, there vs think, thirteen, thirst). Sure there are some dialects that say den or fink, but I don't think there are many where the sounds have merged. Maybe weird but at least to my own ear, hearing some south African white accents almost merges the two. Phone posting so no examples. I think this might be how they change the vowel sound, though, which tricks me into hearing the thorn sound in a word like then. I am also incredibly stupid however
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Dec 9, 2022 18:47
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Why museum insists on keeping remains like skulls is mystifying. There's literally nothing to be gained from keeping them, all you do is pissing people off. Norway and Scandinavia is also guilty of this. In 1852 there was a sami rebellion in Norway lead by Aslak Hætta, they killed a trader and the local lensmann (a sort of sheriff). Hætta was sentenced to death and in 1854 he was decapitated. His skull was then sent to the university of Christiania. The decades went, Christiania was renamed to Oslo and Hætta's descendants demanded to get the skull back in 1990. The university refused to do this until they realized that it was actually not legal for them to keep the skull. Then it was discovered that Hætta's skull was not in the collections of the University of Oslo. It was traded in 1856 for two inuit skulls to the University of Copenhagen. Finally in 1997 Aslak Hætta's remains was buried.
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Dec 9, 2022 19:08
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using skulls of oppressed peoples as trading cards
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Dec 9, 2022 19:28
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Zopotantor posted:Excellent. If they also return Gibraltar to Spain, then maybe we'll let them back into the EU. (Without all the special exemptions they formerly had, of course.) Just let us sink into the sea, we made our beds for ourselves It'll be better for everyone
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Dec 9, 2022 20:23
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I'm reminded of how English in India often comes off as weirdly formal and old-fashioned because, of course, it was primarily imported during the colonial era as Victorian english, and that's the say they've been studying and speaking it since then. Also they apparently take that as a point of pride. A similar thing happens with Arabic as well. Arabic is taught all over the world as a second language so that Muslims can read the Quran in the original language. But the Arabic they learn is Classical Arabic and is ~1400 years out of date, and it sounds hella weird when they try and use it in places like Egypt or Morocco where people speak a modern Arabic dialect as a first language. Sweevo has a new favorite as of 22:08 on Dec 9, 2022 |
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Dec 9, 2022 20:33
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Learning Classical Latin and going to Italy and seeing how far I get.
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Dec 9, 2022 20:40
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FreudianSlippers posted:Learning Classical Latin and going to Italy and seeing how far I get. *wearing a hard rock cafe t-shirt, leafing through phrasebook* sir, excuse me! uhh... hold on, here: pedicab ago was and aroomabo 
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Dec 9, 2022 21:03
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FreudianSlippers posted:Learning Classical Latin and going to Italy and seeing how far I get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYYpTfx1ey8&t=60s
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Dec 9, 2022 21:58
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FreudianSlippers posted:Learning Classical Latin and going to Italy and seeing how far I get. https://twitter.com/azforeman/status/1370779212697628672
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Dec 10, 2022 01:13
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boofhead posted:It's a much less extreme anecdote but I lived in a somewhat posh part of England from the age of 4-7 before moving back to Australia to a public school. I had to lose the accent pretty quickly because it absolutely did not fit in, but it apparently never went completely away, to the extent where I was 18 and working in bars and a few old timers would ask me where I was from, and keep pressing until I mentioned living in England for a bit as a kid, at which point they went "ahh there it is then". Theres a seasonal worker at my job who just finished her PhD in history from an English university, and she still has traces of an English accent she picked up. The most English thing I heard her say was Yes, theres been a fair few customers today. Tis the season, I suppose.
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Dec 10, 2022 02:06
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i would be like patronus, scriba sententios et post xvii diem returnas ego cum replicus and theyd be like wtf is that google translate and id be like no i just made up poo poo
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Dec 10, 2022 02:12
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Zopotantor posted:Excellent. If they also return Gibraltar to Spain, then maybe we'll let them back into the EU. (Without all the special exemptions they formerly had, of course.) Spain can have Gibralter when they give Ceuta to Morocco
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Dec 10, 2022 02:28
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Alhazred posted:Why museum insists on keeping remains like skulls is mystifying. There's literally nothing to be gained from keeping them, all you do is pissing people off. Do you have any idea how petty the French are about this kind of thing?
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Dec 10, 2022 02:30
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It's settled I'm learning Latin so I can chat with monks.
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Dec 10, 2022 03:13
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Gaius Marius posted:Do you have any idea how petty the French are about this kind of thing? you say that like its a special french trait
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Dec 10, 2022 09:46
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Carthag Tuek posted:you say that like its a special french trait have you met the French
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Dec 10, 2022 10:15
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venus de lmao posted:have you met the French i have, and also other people
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Dec 10, 2022 10:28
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boofhead posted:It's a much less extreme anecdote but I lived in a somewhat posh part of England from the age of 4-7 before moving back to Australia to a public school. I had to lose the accent pretty quickly because it absolutely did not fit in, but it apparently never went completely away, to the extent where I was 18 and working in bars and a few old timers would ask me where I was from, and keep pressing until I mentioned living in England for a bit as a kid, at which point they went "ahh there it is then". That's funny because I grew up in the Australian countryside and have only been overseas for like a few weeks in my 20s and all my life, both people from overseas and locals, have asked me where my accent is from. It seems some people think I'm American or English for some reason, one person thought south african. I think I just read too much as a kid, and watched too much tv or something.
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Dec 10, 2022 12:06
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Sweevo posted:A similar thing happens with Arabic as well. Arabic is taught all over the world as a second language so that Muslims can read the Quran in the original language. But the Arabic they learn is Classical Arabic and is ~1400 years out of date, and it sounds hella weird when they try and use it in places like Egypt or Morocco where people speak a modern Arabic dialect as a first language. A bit like Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Hebrew, or the abovementioned Latin.
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Dec 10, 2022 13:22
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https://twitter.com/klaasm67/status/1601476619071545345
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Dec 10, 2022 13:29
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venus de lmao posted:have you met the French This is not purely a french thing. The problem with unethically sourced remains is so big that the Norwegian Ministry of Education and Research had to form their own Skulls and Bones Department (or the National Commission for Research Ethics on Human Remains as it's actually named). And Norway doesn't have much to brag about when it comes to treating human remains respectfully. Julia Pastrana's taxidermied body ended up in a storage in Norway where she was largely forgotten about, somebody then stole her body and tossed in a garbage dump, her body was recovered and sent to the medical university in Norway. Later a committee decided that she should not be buried but kept for further studies. A while after artist Laura Anderson Barbata discovered what had happened to Pastrana's body and started work to get her buried in Mexico. The university fought back, claiming that her rare genetically disease was too valuable for research to let her remains get buried. Finally they let agree to turn the remains to Mexico, partly because zero research had actually been done with her body, and 150 years after her death Julia Pastrano was buried in 2013. Alhazred has a new favorite as of 14:03 on Dec 10, 2022 |
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Dec 10, 2022 13:53
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Norway sucks. Boo us
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Dec 10, 2022 13:57
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Alaois posted:Spain can have Gibralter when they give Ceuta to Morocco Fair enough.
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Dec 10, 2022 14:02
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Funny how this never gets mentioned in UK history classes, I had honestly never heard of the battle of Dungeness or of this war until you posted this tweet and I studied history at A level in the UK lol.
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Dec 10, 2022 14:14
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do other countries besides Germany actually teach about the bad and/or embarrassing parts of their history because I'm American and I learned about Black Wall Street, the MOVE bombing, My Lai, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the murder of Fred Hampton, Ronald Reagan (everything about him), the Dulles brothers, MKULTRA, the genocide of indigenous peoples, and the founding of Fox News intentionally as the propaganda machine of the Republican Party. On the internet. I learned all that on the internet.
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Dec 10, 2022 14:44
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Helith posted:Funny how this never gets mentioned in UK history classes, I had honestly never heard of the battle of Dungeness or of this war until you posted this tweet and I studied history at A level in the UK lol. England the UK have historically been very good at sweeping embarrassing parts of their history under the rug. I spent much of my early ears on the internet on various history-related gaming forums talking about games like Civilization etc. As you might expect, these forums all also had discussions of regular history. Within a few years I had heard about battles like Crecy and Agincourt hundreds of times, and I had the general idea in my head that the Royal Navy was basically unbeatable from Elizabeth I to Elizabeth II. No one ever mentioned battles like Cartaghena de Indias where 30,000 British soldiers and marines were beat by about 4,000 Spaniards and Indians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cartagena_de_Indias I'm guessing that UK schools don't like to talk about battles like this at all, or at least that they didn't back in the 70s-90s when most posters active on early 2000s forums went to school.
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Dec 10, 2022 14:47
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venus de lmao posted:do other countries besides Germany actually teach about the bad and/or embarrassing parts of their history because I'm American and I learned about Black Wall Street, the MOVE bombing, My Lai, the Tuskegee syphilis experiment, the murder of Fred Hampton, Ronald Reagan (everything about him), the Dulles brothers, MKULTRA, the genocide of indigenous peoples, and the founding of Fox News intentionally as the propaganda machine of the Republican Party. I was taught about even things like the Zoot Suit Riots in high school. It highly depends on your public school location but generally the non-chuddy parts of the US aren't as embarrassed as a lot of other countries to talk about the negative parts of their past.
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Dec 10, 2022 15:47
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Denmark sterilized so-called "feeble-minded" men & women (aandssvage, literally weak of spirit), even decades after ww2 made eugenics unfashionable. Basically, if you were considered unfit, you were put in camps and were not allowed to leave until you got snipped. I have no context for this letter, aside from finding it when looking for my retard uncle. To me it reads incredibly coached. Note also the formal third person direct address we talked about earlier. quote:Sir Inspector Nielsen, 
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Dec 10, 2022 15:58
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Yeah well we played zoot suit riot in middle school, hotshotOffler posted:England the UK have historically been very good at sweeping embarrassing parts of their history under the rug. I spent much of my early ears on the internet on various history-related gaming forums talking about games like Civilization etc. As you might expect, these forums all also had discussions of regular history. Within a few years I had heard about battles like Crecy and Agincourt hundreds of times, and I had the general idea in my head that the Royal Navy was basically unbeatable from Elizabeth I to Elizabeth II. You'll also never hear about how poorly the counter armada went. Badly.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:07
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plumbing the depths of my school memories, i think the only thing i was taught at that time related to denmark's role was that we in 1848 were the first* nation to abolish slavery. that is, the peoples of the danish west indies, now usvi, told the governor to emancipate them or else. which was of course spinned to mean the king graciously freed all slaves** and abolished slavery*** out of the kindness of his heart * wrong ** wrong *** wrong
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Dec 10, 2022 16:24
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Helith posted:Funny how this never gets mentioned in UK history classes, I had honestly never heard of the battle of Dungeness or of this war until you posted this tweet and I studied history at A level in the UK lol. Have you at least heard of the Raid on the Medway? Just sail up the river, and burn/steal all of the English navy ships while they aren't looking.
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Dec 10, 2022 16:41
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