(Thread IKs:
Platystemon)
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A Spherical Sponge posted:wasn't there a case of some woman in a scandinavian country or the netherlands who had severe depression which didn't respond to any treatment for years and years, and they eventually gave in to her request to die because they were literally out of options to help her feel better? I feel like that's pretty acceptable, some very unlucky people just have hosed brains that can only experience misery and are incapable of any positive emotion at all, just like other unlucky people live in constant agonising physical or neuropathic pain without any hope of relief. ... 
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Dec 12, 2022 23:53
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I literally live every day with terrible intractable chronic pain and have spent decades of time and god knows how much cash dealing with it and the cause of it is not going to kill me. So I have like 50?ish years of exponential terrible ahead of me and would like an easy and legal way out at some point? The human brain is not designed to handle stuff like decades of severe pain. Non-terminal problems that will destroy you anyway are maybe worse? I don't want to be a burden and I can 100% go out anytime I choose, but I think the option needs to be more widely legally available and accepted. There comes a point where you have tried EVERYTHING and you just sit around hoping that medical science will advance and that your broke-brain self can advocate for trying everything new, that you can afford it, and that your doctors will go along with it. The for profit medical system is terrible and incentivizes keeping people alive, but the issues with healthcare go much much deeper and I sincerely hope none of you ever have to fully appreciate this. Be amazed anyone is alive.
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Dec 13, 2022 00:04
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you can take yourself out? but giving the state guidelines for administering it, is asking the state to abuse said guidelines. I'd rather you find your own way to the next phase of being than enable even more systematic abuse
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Dec 13, 2022 00:13
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It's weird that you implied ALS and Lewy Body Dementia are non-physical when the argument ultimately rests on mental illness being physically caused. If mental illness is caused by damage to the brain, or some other physical intractable malfunctioning of the brain, then it can be likened to ALS and Lewy Body Dementia (not the other way around). I'm convinced this view of mental illness as "imbalance of chemicals in the brain" preceding the illness is wrong though. The idea that depression can be intractable seems especially wrong. "Treatment resistant" in the context of world-historical wealth inequality, environmental toxicity, peak alienation, and general collapse doesn't mean a whole lot.
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Dec 13, 2022 00:20
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Desert Bus posted:I literally live every day with terrible intractable chronic pain and have spent decades of time and god knows how much cash dealing with it and the cause of it is not going to kill me. So I have like 50?ish years of exponential terrible ahead of me and would like an easy and legal way out at some point? The human brain is not designed to handle stuff like decades of severe pain. Non-terminal problems that will destroy you anyway are maybe worse? I don't want to be a burden and I can 100% go out anytime I choose, but I think the option needs to be more widely legally available and accepted. As someone who does know all of this, Canada's MAID law is still deeply unethical and not solving problems, and you have to draw the line somewhere. I don't want the medical staff to have the option of going "you could just die", every so often I get a nurse saying that as is. The pain is bad, but it's not as stressful as housing issues, care access, and teeth. Mostly because the pain is there forever and can't be meaningfully treated, so where it's unpleasant I don't exactly have a lot of hard choices to make. A disease that's guaranteed to get worse and kill you soon is about as far as I'd trust any government.
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Dec 13, 2022 00:21
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Riot Bimbo posted:you can take yourself out? but giving the state guidelines for administering it, is asking the state to abuse said guidelines. I'd rather you find your own way to the next phase of being than enable even more systematic abuse I have piles and of pills that would make most junkies jealous and/or dead. Life is just too much fun? It's terrible but I love it and I only get one. The euthanasia system as it exists is all fucky and I wish it weren't? I shouldn't have to homebrew a good death. I can just buy one for my pets?
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Dec 13, 2022 00:23
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Sorry all I have some personal opinions on this but my fever has spiked to 101.1f (covid or flu, who knows whoo), so i'm not even making much sense to myself anymore. I am going to respectfully bow out of this discussion and go eat some Tylenol and hopefully sleep for like 8 hours? Love you Goons <3
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Dec 13, 2022 00:26
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Desert Bus posted:What other mental illnesses do you feel aren't worthy of being taken as seriously of as "physical" illnesses? If you weren't a mod I'd be reporting you for this lovely lovely viewpoint. people with (non-permanently) broken brains shouldn't get to make permanent decisions about killing them selves because if their brain were to unbreak later they woiuld regret it hth
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Dec 13, 2022 00:37
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Perry Mason Jar posted:I'm convinced this view of mental illness as "imbalance of chemicals in the brain" preceding the illness is wrong though. The idea that depression can be intractable seems especially wrong. "Treatment resistant" in the context of world-historical wealth inequality, environmental toxicity, peak alienation, and general collapse doesn't mean a whole lot. hey I’m down with anything you’ve got up your sleeve to remove the effects of world-historical wealth inequality, environmental toxicity, peak alienation, and general collapse, but if you don’t have some big wins there then those are just as much real, unavoidable factors as any brain injury or chemical imbalance. “treatment resistant” means “we don’t have anything that can practically treat it”, and “well maybe we could treat it in an alternate timeline that didn’t suck” is pretty cold loving comfort
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Dec 13, 2022 00:42
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Looks like China is trying to get ahead of AI imagery.quote:In recent years, deep synthesis technology has developed rapidly. While serving user needs and improving user experience, it has also been used by some unscrupulous people to produce, copy, publish, and disseminate illegal and harmful information, to slander and belittle others' reputation and honor, and to counterfeit others' identities. Committing fraud, etc., affects the order of communication and social order, damages the legitimate rights and interests of the people, and endangers national security and social stability. Makes perfect sense that the first regulations around this stuff would have nothing to do with creator rights. feedmyleg has issued a correction as of 00:54 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 00:48
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once again: cgi 'concept' video made by design students
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Dec 13, 2022 00:51
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Apologies if I'm reiterating my previous post but I think it's important: I think mental health issues can be a legitimate reason for euthanasia in certain conditions. It's unfair and in an ideal world it wouldn't be necessary but that's not the world we live in. Who decides on what criteria and all that is a different discussion, but limiting mental health w.r.t euthanasia to physically determinations or whatever ignores the fact that sometimes people have experiences that leave them damaged in a way that simply can not be remedied given the limitations of medication, therapy, whatever other forms of treatment when time is also a factor. It's simply unrealistic to expect that, and again, I wish we lived in a world where those things were possible but often it just isn't. The world can be poo poo, and horrible poo poo happens. If you tried, I think each and every one of us could conjure up some horrific scenario (and I don't want you to but for the sake of argument) where having a way out is the only humane option, even if there's nothing wrong physically, because sometimes lived experiences are just that hosed up. I'm talking horror movie poo poo. The kind of poo poo that when you watch it you literally can't imagine what you'd do if that happened to you. Worse poo poo happens all the time, in the real world, to real people. Like I said, my mom deals with that kind of poo poo professionally. I do too, to a lesser degree. All those crime documentaries and poo poo aren't the worst of it. poo poo happens to people, to children, to the elderly, to regular people, that's too horrific to ever be made public. Maybe you'll hear about it decades from now but by then it'll be too distant, too abstracted to affect you the way it should. Sometimes people experience poo poo that's so bad that I don't blame them for not wanting to live with it, and denying them a way out means your subjecting them to years, sometimes decades, of hell. It's not fair, and if I could wave a magic want or give them a pill or come up with some kind of therapy that would undo the damage done or at least make it bearable I would, but sometimes the damage is too great. As convulated a scenario you'd have to come up with to allow for euthanasia to be permissible, believe me, such things happen more than you'd like to think. And again, these are the extremes, but they're worth considering.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:11
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"We've tried everything except improving your material conditions and nothing's worked, sorry. We're out of ideas." "Could we try improving my material conditions?" "That'd be nice, huh?  ""So... no?" "Yeah, no. We can kill you if you like." "I... hmm..."
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Dec 13, 2022 01:12
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call me naive, but I don’t think any of my psychiatric professionals could really improve material conditions on a timeline useful to me (and I’m rich anyway, really, so), and I’m therefore quite glad that ketamine worked because things were looking pretty loving from before that
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Dec 13, 2022 01:14
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Perry Mason Jar posted:It's weird that you implied ALS and Lewy Body Dementia are non-physical when the argument ultimately rests on mental illness being physically caused. If mental illness is caused by damage to the brain, or some other physical intractable malfunctioning of the brain, then it can be likened to ALS and Lewy Body Dementia (not the other way around). ALS and Lewy Body Dementia are both progressive diseases that inevitably lead to death, though, and are so severe that they're easily diagnosable from some scans. Stuff like depression is still physical, and not just a chemical imbalance; it's associated with brain damage also, but it won't kill you. But like many mental disorders, even though we know it has a physical basis, we don't have the tools to diagnose it through scans, even if we have a mechanistic theory as to how it's caused which has been supported by animal models or research on cadavers or something. I don't doubt material conditions also lead to acquired depressive syndromes, temporary or otherwise, but brain development and functioning is complicated and can go wrong pretty easy. There are people like Thomas Liggoti who's had severe anhedonia for as long as he can remember, maybe from birth, by his own account; that's probably not a chemical imbalance, that's more likely a neuro-developmental disorder. If someone can be born autistic or develop ADHD or epilepsy, why is a permanent disorder of mood regulation so different? And it's not like the context of wealth inequality, environmental toxicity, alienation, and general collapse don't also lead to the development of physical conditions either.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:17
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Money is not the be all end all of material conditions. A democratized workplace is a material change with measurable effects on wellbeing. A robust, accessible, free community space is a material change with measurable effects on wellbeing. And so on. Why couldn't your psychiatric professionals do that? Couldn't they support leadership and ideas which foster it? Couldn't they help create community spaces to do it? Couldn't they agitate for more humane psychiatric practices (don't mean euthanasia here but psychiatric hospitals are um horrorshows, e.g.) at minimum? If I was a psychiatric professional I would right now be organizing to stop Eric Adams' unlawful and discriminatory plan to place involuntary psychiatric holds on visibly mentally ill homeless individuals. Most people anywhere are in a position to improve material conditions if they weren't wrapped up in individualistic idealist pursuits
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Dec 13, 2022 01:22
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A Spherical Sponge posted:ALS and Lewy Body Dementia are both progressive diseases that inevitably lead to death, though, and are so severe that they're easily diagnosable from some scans. Stuff like depression is still physical, and not just a chemical imbalance; it's associated with brain damage also, but it won't kill you. But like many mental disorders, even though we know it has a physical basis, we don't have the tools to diagnose it through scans, even if we have a mechanistic theory as to how it's caused which has been supported by animal models or research on cadavers or something. I don't believe, either, that autism or ADHD or epilepsy or anhedonia, constitute conditions so severe that there can be no adaptation (whether individual or societal).
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Dec 13, 2022 01:26
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Perry Mason Jar posted:I don't believe, either, that autism or ADHD or epilepsy or anhedonia, constitute conditions so severe that there can be no adaptation (whether individual or societal). Well I was mainly giving autism, ADHD, and epilepsy as examples of intractable mental conditions with developmental origins, rather than saying that there can't be adaptions to it. Anhedonia, by itself, can be lived with and adapted to, though you might end up with someone like Liggoti, who is well known for thinking human existence is a mistake and we should all commit to voluntary extinction by refusing to reproduce. But anhedonia isn't the only symptom of depression, there's also all sorts of more active, torturous forms of misery, rather than the simple passive absence of pleasure. And who's to say those can't be present developmentally as well? But they don't need to be developmentally acquired to be permanent, regardless. Like how even if you weren't born epileptic, you can acquire it later on, and it can get worse and worse each time you have a fit due to accumulating brain damage with no recourse on your part, if you're unlucky. Who's to say there can't be a similar process with depression? Sometimes social, individual, and/or pharmacological interventions just don't work and there's nothing you can do.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:41
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i think its pretty clear that the people opposing the idea are doing so because the canadian example is to skip any and all social, individual or pharmaceutical interventions and just kill the poor and disabled to save money and not the idea itself in any wide philosophical sense
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Dec 13, 2022 01:51
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Why couldn't your psychiatric professionals do that? Couldn't they support leadership and ideas which foster it? Couldn't they help create community spaces to do it? Couldn't they agitate for more humane psychiatric practices (don't mean euthanasia here but psychiatric hospitals are um horrorshows, e.g.) at minimum? If I was a psychiatric professional I would right now be organizing to stop Eric Adams' unlawful and discriminatory plan to place involuntary psychiatric holds on visibly mentally ill homeless individuals. speaking only for myself, if my psychiatric team’s response to “ I don’t even feel love for my baby daughter any more” was “cheer up, I’m voting and organizing!” I don’t know that it would have really made it a lot more bearable
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Dec 13, 2022 01:58
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Desert Bus posted:What other mental illnesses do you feel aren't worthy of being taken as seriously of as "physical" illnesses? If you weren't a mod I'd be reporting you for this lovely lovely viewpoint. As someone who deals daily with depression, I'm exceedingly well aware that depression is physical. Also, my pain diagnosis isn't as severe as yours, but up until a recent experience with emergency neurosurgery, I dealt daily with constant, daily nerve pain, and did so for years, so I am also well acquainted with the daily toll that non-lethal pain can take on the mind and body. My point with naming two specific diseases was to say that we shouldn't be euthanizing the mentally ill, and I say this as someone who still deals with suicidal ideation from time to time, though thankfully less lately. But I also think that someone who is 100% medically certain is going to die in agony or from something as horrific as their brain literally forgetting how to breathe or swallow should also have the option. You took an extremely tortured reading of what I said to interpret it as me minimizing mental health issues, including ones that I struggle with daily, as somehow being of lesser importance, and I genuinely do not appreciate it.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:58
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I mean, I don't know if there's one thing every human should have ultimate control over, it's their own life. If they want to get off the ride, for ANY reason, let them off the ride.
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Dec 13, 2022 02:14
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atelier morgan posted:i think its pretty clear that the people opposing the idea are doing so because the canadian example is to skip any and all social, individual or pharmaceutical interventions and just kill the poor and disabled to save money and not the idea itself in any wide philosophical sense No, I'm pretty sure PMJ at least was disagreeing with the idea that mental health conditions like depression are capable of justifying euthanasia, because they said that they don't believe that mental health conditions like depression can ever be truly intractable: Perry Mason Jar posted:I'm convinced this view of mental illness as "imbalance of chemicals in the brain" preceding the illness is wrong though. The idea that depression can be intractable seems especially wrong. "Treatment resistant" in the context of world-historical wealth inequality, environmental toxicity, peak alienation, and general collapse doesn't mean a whole lot.
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Dec 13, 2022 02:15
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I meant depression specifically there, not necessarily conditions like it. Although I would maintain the same for GAD, most trauma associated illnesses, most compulsive disorders, et al. Something like ADHD is likely to be intractable. I have a CPTSD diagnosis which I'm told is intractable illness but I don't buy it frankly. Edit: as someone who has struggled with moderate-severe depression/anxiety/PTSD starting at eleven years old I'm not going to come around to "Sometimes killing yourself is actually the best option, just like you thought all along" any time soon Perry Mason Jar has issued a correction as of 02:27 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 02:20
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Only one person's suffering is valid and by god I won't rest until I've found out who
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Dec 13, 2022 02:32
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Perry Mason Jar posted:"Sometimes killing yourself is actually the best option, just like you thought all along" any time soon who gives a poo poo if it’s the best option as decided by…whoever? it just has to be a better option than others that seem plausible and immediate enough to compete
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Dec 13, 2022 02:38
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Have you ever had a spinal tap? I'd rather die than do it again. I told my doctor as much.
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Dec 13, 2022 02:38
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Subjunctive posted:who gives a poo poo if it’s the best option as decided by…whoever? it just has to be a better option than others that seem plausible and immediate enough to compete ? You are saying to be myopic when asking yourself the question whether you should die or continue to live??
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Dec 13, 2022 02:41
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Perry Mason Jar posted:I meant depression specifically there, not necessarily conditions like it. Although I would maintain the same for GAD, most trauma associated illnesses, most compulsive disorders, et al. Something like ADHD is likely to be intractable. I have a CPTSD diagnosis which I'm told is intractable illness but I don't buy it frankly. I have had depression and GAD in the past, for several years, with suicidal ideation, but I haven't experienced it for years now. But just because it was tractable for me, that doesn't mean there aren't people for who it is intractable. What makes something intractable or not has to do with the physical basis of the condition, and stuff like GAD or depression are defined by the presentation of symptoms rather than any specific cause, which will vary from person to person. Someone might have a case of depression where the underlying cause is treatable, and another person may have a case where it isn't. There's no reason to think there won't be cases where someone has developed a condition which has damaged their brain in such a way that they're doomed to psychological anguish for the rest of their lives, with no hope of relief. They'd be very rare but they almost certainly exist. But the only way to distinguish them is by trying literally every possible treatment and seeing if any of them work. All the stuff you mentioned, for example. but also stuff like illegal drugs, imo. ketamine works pretty well from what I hear, there was that cocaine guy I mentioned, psychedelics might work so long as your therapy centre isn't a front for the CIA, MDMA is thought to be especially good for CPTSD. I'm only in favour of euthanasia as long as it really is a last resort and someone has tried literally everything else to alleviate their suffering, or to at least figure out a way to manage it and find something to satisfy themselves existentially.
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Dec 13, 2022 02:44
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Yes everyone supports a maximally idealized version of it, but its existence in reality would almost never match it. In hellworld (late class society) it would be used to, instead, do active conscious harm (already demonstrated).
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Dec 13, 2022 02:51
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atelier morgan posted:i think its pretty clear that the people opposing the idea are doing so because the canadian example is to skip any and all social, individual or pharmaceutical interventions and just kill the poor and disabled to save money and not the idea itself in any wide philosophical sense
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Dec 13, 2022 02:54
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I mean the US solution is let those dissatisfied do a mass murder instead so who can say which is better
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Dec 13, 2022 02:57
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HootTheOwl posted:Have you ever had a spinal tap? Multiple times. Not in the top ten worst things done to me. The war story is funny though.
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Dec 13, 2022 02:58
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Voluntary euthanasia should be legal, but not a substitute for improving society somewhat. There, you can stop arguing now.
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Dec 13, 2022 02:59
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endlessmonotony posted:Multiple times. Not in the top ten worst things done to me. I couldn't stand for a week without wanting to violently vomit E: and years later if I move just right I still can feel where they nicked a nerve HootTheOwl has issued a correction as of 03:06 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 03:04
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HootTheOwl posted:I couldn't stand for a week without wanting to violently vomit Oh, yeah, and needing the patch was an adventure and a half. But I had that same vomiting for two months straight when I got cyborgized so doing that for a week was bearable by comparison.
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Dec 13, 2022 03:06
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endlessmonotony posted:Oh, yeah, and needing the patch was an adventure and a half. Yikes.
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Dec 13, 2022 03:07
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I feel like there’s a version of this conversation that was mutually supportive instead of bafflingly competitive and lovely, good lord everybody. in the cyberpunk version of this conversation, you were all just as lovely, but you were wearing sunglasses
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Dec 13, 2022 04:30
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*jc denton voice* my depression is augmented
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Dec 13, 2022 05:06
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| # ? May 31, 2024 00:19 |
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rko posted:I feel like there’s a version of this conversation that was mutually supportive instead of bafflingly competitive and lovely, good lord everybody. It's assholes within assholes within assholes, grasshopper.
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Dec 13, 2022 05:19
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