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Not sure if this is ancient history or not, but when did the idea of restaurant-style dining make its way into cultures? I know the equivalent of fast food/takeout is as old as cities, but what about going to a restaurant, sitting down, a server taking your order, and going through courses start? I’d imagine those in power did this in their home with servants forever, but where can Olive Garden trace its cultural ancestry?
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Dec 12, 2022 23:05
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I would think the existence of long-distance travel (whether for trade, religious pilgrimage, etc) would by necessity be coupled with the idea of a venue that wasn't your own home where you could get a meal and a place to sleep. So I'm guessing the dine-in restaurant is really old. Now, the idea of going to that sort of place when you already live nearby, that I have no idea about.
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Dec 12, 2022 23:18
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Well Played Mauer posted:Not sure if this is ancient history or not, but when did the idea of restaurant-style dining make its way into cultures? I know the equivalent of fast food/takeout is as old as cities, but what about going to a restaurant, sitting down, a server taking your order, and going through courses start? Wikipedia posted:A public eating establishment similar to a restaurant is mentioned in a 512 BC record from Ancient Egypt. It served only one dish, a plate of cereal, wild fowl, and onions. There have been travelers for as long as there has been civilization. Every village would have a public house, somebody who would serve or share a meal and provide a place to sleep. It's not really something that had to be "invented." It's a natural response to general need.
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Dec 12, 2022 23:50
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I vaguely recall that in Europe at least the modern template for restaurants was developed in France in the 18th century, but details are fuzzy and there ARE eateries of various kinds elsewhere throughout history. Don't recall offhand what exactly distinguished that French tradition of restaurants from older things like inns.
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Dec 12, 2022 23:57
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I recall that in Pompeii most buildings solidly identified as restaurants didn't have space for indoor seating
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Dec 12, 2022 23:59
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Tomn posted:I vaguely recall that in Europe at least the modern template for restaurants was developed in France in the 18th century, but details are fuzzy and there ARE eateries of various kinds elsewhere throughout history. Don't recall offhand what exactly distinguished that French tradition of restaurants from older things like inns.
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Dec 13, 2022 00:37
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Stuff catering to travellers has existed forever. The modern concept of a restaurant is from France in like, the late 1700s. They started to crop up in the 1780s or so, and really exploded after the French revolution when many former chefs for the nobility (who were killed or fled abroad) opened establishments as a means to earn a living from the general populace.
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Dec 13, 2022 01:05
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Tomn posted:I vaguely recall that in Europe at least the modern template for restaurants was developed in France in the 18th century, but details are fuzzy and there ARE eateries of various kinds elsewhere throughout history. Don't recall offhand what exactly distinguished that French tradition of restaurants from older things like inns. I think the French made up their own very specific definition of restaurant so that they can lay claim to inventing the concept. Much like champagne 
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Dec 13, 2022 01:57
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Tomn posted:I vaguely recall that in Europe at least the modern template for restaurants was developed in France in the 18th century, but details are fuzzy and there ARE eateries of various kinds elsewhere throughout history. Don't recall offhand what exactly distinguished that French tradition of restaurants from older things like inns. The distinction was exactly what Well Played Mauer specified: ordering. Choice. The idea of a menu, or a waiter, listing possibilities for you to pick from at your whim, to be whipped up by a chef in the back, how and when you asked, was an experience previously enjoyed only by the rich. The standard meal provided at inns, bed and breakfasts, etc. basically worked the same as a family, only scaled up a bit. As a paying visitor, you'd come down to the dining room at the set dining time, get your serving of whatever they'd been boiling (or baking, if it was a really upscale place) that night, and that was it. Maybe theoretically you could make a request, but no guarantee anyone would listen or care. And if you miss dinner, you're probably SOL.
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Dec 13, 2022 06:42
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Kylaer posted:I think the French made up their own very specific definition of restaurant so that they can lay claim to inventing the concept. Much like champagne Yes and no. Escoffier invented the brigade de cuisine - the chef/sous chef/saucier/etc. hierarchy that posh restaurants use to this day. He also codified and standardized a lot of cooking methods and recipes. Kind of did for food what Napoleon did for field artillery, and in fact it was Escoffier's experience the the French army that inspired him to militarize the kitchen.
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Dec 13, 2022 16:42
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Kylaer posted:I think the French made up their own very specific definition of restaurant so that they can lay claim to inventing the concept. Much like champagne Chili's? That's just a sparkling eatery
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Dec 13, 2022 16:44
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Fuschia tude posted:The distinction was exactly what Well Played Mauer specified: ordering. Choice. The idea of a menu, or a waiter, listing possibilities for you to pick from at your whim, to be whipped up by a chef in the back, how and when you asked, was an experience previously enjoyed only by the rich. The flawless source of Wikipedia says that ordering from a choice of items was being established in certain restaurants in metropolitan China by the 1100s, and quotes a writer from 1275 saying: quote:The people of Hangzhou are very difficult to please. Hundreds of orders are given on all sides: this person wants something hot, another something cold, a third something tepid, a fourth something chilled. One wants cooked food, another raw, another chooses roast, another grill. Granted there may be no lineage from these Chinese establishments to the French "original" restaurant, so it's a matter of parallel evolution  zoux posted:Yes and no. Escoffier invented the brigade de cuisine - the chef/sous chef/saucier/etc. hierarchy that posh restaurants use to this day. He also codified and standardized a lot of cooking methods and recipes. Kind of did for food what Napoleon did for field artillery, and in fact it was Escoffier's experience the the French army that inspired him to militarize the kitchen. Now this particular claim makes total sense, neat info.
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Dec 13, 2022 16:58
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Rome (or Pompeii, as they'll tell you when you go there) Also had these little food "stands" that I've always imagined were like the noodle huts in Blade Runner, but with fish sauce.
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Dec 13, 2022 17:15
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The Aztecs had open food markets where you could get tamales and tacos, or recognizable equivalents. E: may be wrong on it being ready to eat, though you’d think it would be an option if you’re already buying a tortilla and some stuff to put in a tortilla Nessus fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 19:01
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really the idea of having other people cook your food is not a great leap. Get an urban population big enough and enough abundance that you can buy ingredients without a lot of trouble and eventually someone will sell food from a stall.
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Dec 13, 2022 19:08
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In Pompeii eating at home was what the rich did . The poor and everyone else ate out This is a general statement intended generally
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Dec 13, 2022 20:03
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You get a lot of economies of scale from cooking for many people at once instead of just for yourself.
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Dec 13, 2022 20:37
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Agean90 posted:really the idea of having other people cook your food is not a great leap. Get an urban population big enough and enough abundance that you can buy ingredients without a lot of trouble and eventually someone will sell food from a stall. Yeah, that was the dynamic within the roman cities, since you had huge populations living in insulae - basically apartments - and like many SROs today, not very many facilities. Plus, you think a hotplate is a fire hazard, well there's a reason Crassus was the richest man in Rome
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Dec 13, 2022 20:50
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Kylaer posted:The flawless source of Wikipedia says that ordering from a choice of items was being established in certain restaurants in metropolitan China by the 1100s once again going to plug one of my favorite college required readings, "Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion." https://www.amazon.co.uk/Daily-China-Mongol-Invasion-1250-1276/dp/0804707200 It's just a great little piece of social history, a very focused snapshot of a particular time and place that covers everything from how people ate to how people cheated on tests
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Dec 13, 2022 21:31
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anyone read this?
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Dec 13, 2022 21:49
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Yeah those two dudes basically invented modern fine dining. I know about him because Escoffier School of Culinary Arts has emerged as a competitor to the other major culinary academies, and my friend went there and I read the guys wikipedia article during the graduation ceremony.
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Dec 13, 2022 21:54
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SlothfulCobra posted:You get a lot of economies of scale from cooking for many people at once instead of just for yourself. Also - in Pompeii at least - people didn’t have kitchens !! Sometimes very rudimentary ones. The rich had kitchens Middle class people could rent out private dining rooms at rich people’s house and eat like rich people did (stone couches ???!? we still don’t understand those very well ) So those are like restaurants I guess Also : lots of leftovers !
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Dec 13, 2022 23:17
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Hard not to think Pompeii wasn’t like most of the Italian cities of the time
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Dec 13, 2022 23:18
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Isn't Delmonico's widely considered the foundation of modern restaurants as it was classy enough for the wealthy to leave their houses to go to but cheap enough for the middle class.
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Dec 14, 2022 02:37
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euphronius posted:Also - in Pompeii at least - people didn’t have kitchens !! Sometimes very rudimentary ones. The rich had kitchens I understand a stone couch is hard and that a couple of throw pillows and a fur would be nice and soft.
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Dec 14, 2022 03:08
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I gave the book to my mom. I forget what the archeological question was about the couches
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Dec 14, 2022 03:09
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euphronius posted:I gave the book to my mom. I forget what the archeological question was about the couches I think there's quite a bit of history that could reasoned when you think that their artists were not pumping out photo-realistic details of mundane life like what your rear end is sitting on or the turds on the ground from the dogs.
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Dec 14, 2022 04:20
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Tomn posted:I vaguely recall that in Europe at least the modern template for restaurants was developed in France in the 18th century, but details are fuzzy and there ARE eateries of various kinds elsewhere throughout history. Don't recall offhand what exactly distinguished that French tradition of restaurants from older things like inns.
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Dec 14, 2022 08:26
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Crab Dad posted:I think there's quite a bit of history that could reasoned when you think that their artists were not pumping out photo-realistic details of mundane life like what your rear end is sitting on or the turds on the ground from the dogs. I think the OP about the stone couches was in reference to Pompeii, where they're actually preserved. Along with, IIRC, the poop.
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Dec 14, 2022 08:35
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Cities are absolutely filthy places before modern sanitation and infrastructure. Also, yeah, keep in mind how much of the modern kitchen consists of infrastructure and technology- indoor plumbing, fresh water, electric or gas heating, fridges, etc. It's utterly unrecognisable in the olden days, where a kitchen is a facility, not a room.
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Dec 14, 2022 10:53
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Kitchens were also enormous fire hazards.
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Dec 14, 2022 13:58
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Dec 14, 2022 14:14
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should bring that back, no more of that "sitting upright" nonsense at dinner.
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Dec 14, 2022 14:27
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Some of The stone ones mentioned  That interior garden of a mansion euphronius fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 14:43
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The common wood frame couches are of course all gone
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Dec 14, 2022 14:49
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I’ve read the claim that before modern-ish times a kitchen just for one household was a massively un-economical use of energy available only to the rich. Communal bread ovens and stewpots and the like were the norm.
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Dec 14, 2022 15:25
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Omnomnomnivore posted:I’ve read the claim that before modern-ish times a kitchen just for one household was a massively un-economical use of energy available only to the rich. Communal bread ovens and stewpots and the like were the norm. This...doesn't really work for the vast majority of premodern humans. For a small minority that lived in cities there would be communal ovens etc, but nearly everyone lived in rural areas where such a thing would be logistically unfeasible. And even in fairly urban areas going back very long we think families cooked as families - like Çatalhöyük houses have ovens, for example.
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Dec 14, 2022 16:48
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It might be true that having an actual kitchen was a rich person thing but most people through history were cooking at whatever their home's version of a heating fire was, not collectively. Large Roman cities were unusual in having such strict fire regulations and such density that lots of people were living in little apartments where you couldn't do that.
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Dec 14, 2022 16:53
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Tavern is a Roman word    In Pompeii they drank and gambled in taverns a lot
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Dec 14, 2022 16:58
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Grand Fromage posted:It might be true that having an actual kitchen was a rich person thing but most people through history were cooking at whatever their home's version of a heating fire was, not collectively. Large Roman cities were unusual in having such strict fire regulations and such density that lots of people were living in little apartments where you couldn't do that. Yeah the home fire was incredibly important in Roman ideas . Vesta was the goddess of the hearth and we all know how important she is
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Dec 14, 2022 17:01
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