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PatMarshall posted:You guys at least like the Death of Ivan Iylich right? I feel like I'm going insane. one of literature's great curmudgeons
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Dec 10, 2022 23:31
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ulvir posted:one of literature's great curmudgeons IDK, it felt kind of short and the title, ugh, spoilers anyone
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Dec 11, 2022 12:38
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Dec 11, 2022 12:59
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Loll
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Dec 11, 2022 17:55
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blue squares posted:While we're posting bad takes that everyone hates, here's mine: the characters in War and Peace are completely unrealistic. They're not unrealistic, they're just kind of stupid and Tolstoy's really good at laying out the ways they're stupid, which is why it's so fun to read. The bit where Pierre goes to someone's house and fucks up their obsessive furniture arragement by sitting in the wrong chair is extremely funny. It's like The Sopranos.
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Dec 11, 2022 22:41
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Magic Hate Ball posted:They're not unrealistic, they're just kind of stupid and Tolstoy's really good at laying out the ways they're stupid, which is why it's so fun to read. The bit where Pierre goes to someone's house and fucks up their obsessive furniture arragement by sitting in the wrong chair is extremely funny. It's like The Sopranos. Anna Karenina is the same way. Everyone is so loving dumb and doesn't realize it. The part where Levin goes for a walk to mope and invents...blood and soil fascism is grim and really funny.
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Dec 13, 2022 05:24
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So you’re saying that when I read the part about the young Rostov in battle just gushing over how glorious the emperor is, wanting desperately to be even glanced at by him, willing to give his life for him, my reaction of “Jesus what an idiot” was the reaction Tolstoy was going for? I hated that part because it was one of the most over the top parts I can recall
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Dec 13, 2022 14:29
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PatMarshall posted:You guys at least like the Death of Ivan Iylich right? I feel like I'm going insane.
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Dec 13, 2022 15:55
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No one with unresolved pain has ever liked a book. Edit: let alone written a book
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Dec 13, 2022 16:11
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ThePopeOfFun posted:No one with unresolved pain has ever liked a book. e: Sorry if this stuff has a surface meanness to it, this thread is kind of prickly and I was trying to say something that could help people appreciate art and to maybe treat themselves a little better, because I've been working on that myself. I didn't contextualize things enough. corn haver fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Dec 13, 2022 |
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Dec 13, 2022 16:32
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Another effect of reading too much genre: the default assumption that the author is a loving moron with no idea what they're doing
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Dec 13, 2022 16:44
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derp posted:Another effect of reading too much genre: the default assumption that the author is a loving moron with no idea what they're doing And who also believes the same about their readership
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Dec 13, 2022 16:53
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blue squares posted:So you’re saying that when I read the part about the young Rostov in battle just gushing over how glorious the emperor is, wanting desperately to be even glanced at by him, willing to give his life for him, my reaction of “Jesus what an idiot” was the reaction Tolstoy was going for? I hated that part because it was one of the most over the top parts I can recall Yes, Rostov is meant to be naive. He is an exemplar of his class, look at where he ends up vs. Where he starts. That's what I love about the book.
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Dec 13, 2022 17:54
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corn haver posted:Yeah i'm definitely not saying that at all, sorry if it was implied. people hurt a shitload and have weird constrictions and do amazing things constantly anyways. it's just if someone (not itt) was like tolstoy categorically sucks and everyone alive in the 19th century was a moron who just fell off the turnip truck, it might be indicative of the emotional constraints that life and capitalist society places on people than it is of the work. there's no necessary reference or judgment of an individual postmodern subject in that, and i am firmly in the camp of the postmodern subject myself No one is offended. You should keep posting. I’m rattling the cage because the first post sounded a lot like  “If you dont like Tolstoy, you need therapy.” Although the thread title implies a lack of actualization within TBB so maybe you’re dead on.
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Dec 13, 2022 18:52
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I just finished The Passenger and have come to the conclusion that Cormac McCarthy is a good writer.
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Dec 13, 2022 20:08
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The Kennedy assassination stuff towards the end of The Passenger struck me as pretty funny, especially having just read Libra earlier this year. I don't think DeLillo mentioned much about ballistics or what a .30-06 does the the human head vs. whatever cheap Italian poo poo Oswald was firing. Maybe I'm misremembering. But yeah McCarthy is great and The Passenger is good. I actually think I'm gonna end up reading Stella Maris after all. The dialogue bits have been my favorite and that book is all dialogue as far as I understand.
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Dec 13, 2022 20:21
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ThePopeOfFun posted:
tbh, this is unironically true
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Dec 13, 2022 20:49
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apophenium posted:The Kennedy assassination stuff towards the end of The Passenger struck me as pretty funny, especially having just read Libra earlier this year. I don't think DeLillo mentioned much about ballistics or what a .30-06 does the the human head vs. whatever cheap Italian poo poo Oswald was firing. Maybe I'm misremembering. I didn't realize Stella Maris is pretty short too, I had planned to take a break but might just jump into it sooner rather than later.
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Dec 13, 2022 21:36
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lol OP, I will cop to coming in pretty hot. I still don’t get what you mean, but I am also a very bad reader. I think you’re saying it’s tough to appreciate the emotional aspects of Tolstoy when one has compartmentalized out ones own emotional life. Also that some of us are forced to do this because of Capitalism. So no worries if you don’t like it. If so, I see where you are coming from. I personally don’t think there’s much between a reader and a book. Most of the work I have done getting folks to read lit or write anything, or even feel safe interacting some who had “writer” as a title, has to do with getting rid of their fear of Being Seen as Stupid. Usually because office grammarians, other readers and wannabe writers trying very hard to be seen as literate in public.
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Dec 13, 2022 21:48
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War and Peace didn’t click for me until I had a lot more background in 19th century Russian history. Tolstoy thought Austerlitz was a fuckup by venal idiots who were fighting war for all the wrong, tiny reasons while Borodino was a triumph of Russia because they transcended those petty distractions and fought a battle for a deeper, more profound reason. After that everything else made a lot more sense and his sort of tangents towards the end were a lot less unexpected or random. But that’s me, I was (and am) very dim.
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Dec 14, 2022 04:28
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ThePopeOfFun posted:lol People's drives are pretty simple in a lot of ways, and there's a lot of sound and fury in inward and outward behavior to hide that. Our world is vastly more complex and busy than Tolstoy's, so it's very grounding to read him with the assumption that we have burdens that are in some ways heavier than those in 19th century society. The world often looked outwardly more like a brutal open sewer back then, but oppression is part of human society, and we have gotten better at the art of stage management. And yeah, nobody should be made to feel stupid for trying to engage with something earnestly. Art is for everyone, although people have a right to have their own spaces with certain expectations and culture.
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Dec 14, 2022 05:06
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Anyways, regarding respecting spaces and culture, i'm finally getting into henry james when before the prose was like making my eyes go in 15 different directions. i skimmed technical stuff at work all day and haven't read fiction in ages. reading habits are hard to break/reestablish
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Dec 14, 2022 12:03
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I'm reading some of Charles Dickens other Christmas novellas for the season. Right now I'm reading The Cricket on the Hearth from 1845. It's a warm story, and I'm really enjoying Dickens's playful long-winded style. He infuses a lot of life in the clutter of the setting.
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Dec 14, 2022 14:13
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corn haver posted:Yeah i'm definitely not saying that at all, sorry if it was implied. people hurt a shitload and have weird constrictions and do amazing things constantly anyways. it's just if someone (not itt) was like tolstoy categorically sucks and everyone alive in the 19th century was a moron who just fell off the turnip truck, it might be indicative of the emotional constraints that life and capitalist society places on people than it is of the work. there's no necessary reference or judgment of an individual postmodern subject in that, and i am firmly in the camp of the postmodern subject myself Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Are you saying we, due to living in a capitalist society, have a hard time understanding Tolstoy? Because as far as I know, Tolstoy was always very popular in at least America. And what I know of late 19th Century America is Capitalist Hellhole to the Max. Franchescanado posted:I'm reading some of Charles Dickens other Christmas novellas for the season. Right now I'm reading The Cricket on the Hearth from 1845. It's a warm story, and I'm really enjoying Dickens's playful long-winded style. He infuses a lot of life in the clutter of the setting. And on the flipside, from what I've read, a lot of critics in his own time held Dickens in contempt. but one Karl Max really liked him.
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Dec 14, 2022 14:34
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NikkolasKing posted:Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? Are you saying we, due to living in a capitalist society, have a hard time understanding Tolstoy? Extending the method from the Marxist-Feminist influenced lens of the BBC series to how Tolstoy saw things, one has to acknowledge that we are totally blind to so much of the internal world, and willingly so because things are so complex. If someone is grieving for example, it tends to pull up way more than just the bare fact of the loss. Art appreciation can be serious work, just like therapy. If someone is really focused on taking Pierre's emotional world as the lens of a lot of War and Peace, it can look like a profoundly different book than if we took up another lens, and it's going to engage some intuitive and emotional things about our lives and the lives of the people around us, as well as our broader society. corn haver fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 18:12
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Dec 14, 2022 18:29
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why cant you fuckin nerds just read the book you dont need to do ten years of research and listen to seventeen podcasts just read the book
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Dec 14, 2022 18:58
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derp posted:why cant you fuckin nerds just read the book Art appreciation is serious work, like therapy
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Dec 14, 2022 19:29
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you cannot truly understand literature until you’ve read the entirety of greek and roman philosophy canon, plays, and every important piece of work from the epic of gilgamesh all the way up to the present. and even then you’ll need a double major in aesthetics and psychology to truly grasp the deeper meaning 
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Dec 14, 2022 19:43
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derp posted:why cant you fuckin nerds just read the book
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Dec 14, 2022 19:51
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derp posted:why cant you fuckin nerds just read the book Because then we'd wind up calling McCarthy a shoot-em-up Western writer like your dumb rear end
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Dec 14, 2022 20:11
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Bang! Pow! Cormac McCarthy novels aren't just for kids anymore!
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Dec 14, 2022 20:20
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i stand by my previous posts. the best artworks in literature are those in which the average reader would complain 'nothing happens.' All events are pure distraction, and only surface level. Real art can only be experienced in the internal world, where the human soul resides. However I will amend my rather binary statements to allow the inclusion of some (very rare) cases of genre which is art. Some (as i said, very rare) genre novels focus on the interior, and have very little events or plot. One great example of a true work of art in the genre world, in which 'nothing happens' is the masterpiece Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. This wonderfully subversive book is presented as a fantasy epic, however once one begins reading, one soon realizes that it goes much deeper than simple adventure. In fact, there is rarely an 'event' or action sequence to be had. It is full of musings on music and society and the differences between the sexes, the difficulties of capitalism and thoughts of death and aging, and more. I could not tell you a single thing that "happened" in that book, but so much was said. Truly a visionary work, and one that has left other 'fantasy' novels in the dust.
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Dec 14, 2022 20:21
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derp posted:One great example of a true work of art in the genre world, in which 'nothing happens' is the masterpiece Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss. This wonderfully subversive book is presented as a fantasy epic, however once one begins reading, one soon realizes that it goes much deeper than simple adventure. In fact, there is rarely an 'event' or action sequence to be had. It is full of musings on music and society and the differences between the sexes, the difficulties of capitalism and thoughts of death and aging, and more. I could not tell you a single thing that "happened" in that book, but so much was said. Truly a visionary work, and one that has left other 'fantasy' novels in the dust. https://youtu.be/QjEcnD2MATs mdemone fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Dec 14, 2022 |
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Dec 14, 2022 20:56
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Guy A. Person posted:Bang! Pow! Cormac McCarthy novels aren't just for kids anymore! You had me at "baby tree"
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Dec 14, 2022 21:08
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derp posted:i stand by my previous posts. the best artworks in literature are those in which the average reader would complain 'nothing happens.' All events are pure distraction, and only surface level. Real art can only be experienced in the internal world, where the human soul resides. you really commit to it, I gotta say
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Dec 14, 2022 21:09
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derp posted:i stand by my previous posts. the best artworks in literature are those in which the average reader would complain 'nothing happens.' All events are pure distraction, and only surface level. Real art can only be experienced in the internal world, where the human soul resides. I'm making books illegal
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Dec 14, 2022 21:58
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i liked Anna Karenina because i could picture everything that was happening, like a movie
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Dec 14, 2022 22:37
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Talking about people who understand the nuance of emotion, Mishima deserves a mention. I’ve been reading the Sea of Fertility tetralogy, and have become quite impressed how different my thoughts are in the moment of reading versus how they are after I’ve had time to digest them some more. Kiyoaki’s listlessness seemed at the start to be such a natrual extension of his character that I hadn’t considered how much of it was a defensive response to his upbringing in the Ayakura household, and the “teasing” that he endured from Satoko which was nothing more than light flirting that his own lack of self confidence couldn’t handle. He is a pitiable figure, for all the stupid poo poo he did in Spring Snow, his real crime was just not having the decisive edge of his forefathers. Kiyoaki is the Taisho era in a nutshell a brief transitory period where everything feels like it’s building to something, but neither the man nor the period could make that final leap. Runaway Horses then picks up that building energy and prepares to unleash it in an act of pure fury. Isao and the youth in general are stuck in a bizarre world where the generations previous and fealty are supposed to be praised beyond all else, and yet when they look around they see the poor that are supposed to be protected starving in the fields, the aristocrats have either fallen in with the capitalist like Mastsugae or are utterly apathetic and useless like the Ayakura. But that view is only brought to life in Isao because of the duplicity and ugliness he sees in the adults. His father for example demands beats his mother nearly to her death, preaches loyalty to the Empire above all, but when the Prince invites Isao to talks Iinuma forbids it in a rage without even informing him of why he would. I would also assume that Isao has realized like the elder Matsugae that Iinuma has been protecting the Matsugae from criticism since just after his original article intended for Kiyoaki. His suicidal impulse seems to be as much driven by his desire to not be like his father as it is by his desire to restore the “proper” order of Japan. I wonder what’s going to become of Honda after all this, dude always feels like he’s one toe into completely changing his world view, but his body grounded in Law and Materialism won’t let him make the leap.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:00
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I'm sorry that I didn't read the book with a Marxist-Leninist-Femininst lens, I clearly didn't understand a word of it.
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Dec 15, 2022 00:05
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