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Qwijib0 posted:This was standard practice in my area at the time my home was built in the early 50s--feeder comes into the ceiling box, switch leg, then taps to the room outlets. I'm going to guess it's an evolution of when electricity was new-- the only place you'd need it was for a light, then they added switches and later on when outlets became a thing, hey convenient distribution box! My 1950 house was wired similarly. 14/2 to ceiling box, 14/3 from ceiling to switch, 14/2 from switch to all room outlets.
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Dec 19, 2022 16:01
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Visiting my moms house. She’s got her tree up and it’s on a tree stand which existed before my time with an outlet in the box and an electrical cord running out of the box. Noticed this. Looks like it was a 2 prong cord with a ground wire added to it? Is this safe at all? I mean it’s worked for the last 40+ years. 
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Dec 19, 2022 16:53
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nwin posted:Visiting my moms house. She’s got her tree up and it’s on a tree stand which existed before my time with an outlet in the box and an electrical cord running out of the box. Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for here with that level of information. If the insulation on the ENTIRE cord/string is good then it's probably still safe. That ground wire was not added, that's a thing from when most outlets were 2 prong so one could ground it. Most holidays light are not grounded at all. It's very likely that the least safe thing about all of this is that surely those are incandescent lights and on a natural tree that's not being watered properly it's possible they can get hot enough to start a fire.
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Dec 19, 2022 16:56
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Motronic posted:Not sure what kind of answer you're looking for here with that level of information. If the insulation on the ENTIRE cord/string is good then it's probably still safe. That ground wire was not added, that's a thing from when most outlets were 2 prong so one could ground it. Most holidays light are not grounded at all. Yeah the wire/insulation itself is fine and everything looks in good condition/I’ve just never seen a ground wire hanging out like that. She’s using led lights, surprisingly.
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Dec 19, 2022 17:11
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The lights are the green side? Or the bulbs on the left (where they should be in that picture...) were swapped for led? Because I doubt anything old enough to have that wire is led. Does both sides of the black cord have prongs, one of which is going into the wall? If so it not safe and it needs to be unplugged, cut, and tossed because it's a suicide cord. Not at the end of the season, today.
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Dec 19, 2022 17:29
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nwin posted:Yeah the wire/insulation itself is fine and everything looks in good condition/I’ve just never seen a ground wire hanging out like that. Safest bet is to cut the black end off and wire in a 3-wire plug, then use a 3-wire extension cord. Motronic is correct: that's from when most outlets were two-prong, but the manufacturer of that black cord wanted to provide a ground wire to be safe. No reason not to follow their lead and continue to be as safe as possible. H110Hawk posted:The lights are the green side? Or the bulbs on the left (where they should be in that picture...) were swapped for led? Because I doubt anything old enough to have that wire is led. The green side is a two-prong extension cord going to the wall. The black side is just an electrified tree stand; LED lights are plugged into that. I concur with your treatment of suicide cords.
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Dec 19, 2022 19:07
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:The green side is a two-prong extension cord going to the wall. The black side is just an electrified tree stand; LED lights are plugged into that. Gotcha. I was having trouble picturing how a cord that old had a ground + led, but the base is just a "power strip" that you fill with water? 
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Dec 19, 2022 20:07
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Here's a question, thread! I've never used a multimeter on a thermostat, so from this sucker: ...what would I try to poke to see if it's live or not? The manual for my new thermostat says power is provided from the C wire in the image above, but that's only one wire to test with three multimeter? I don't have (and haven't looked up) the manual for my current thermostat, some cheap Honeywell thing, but if the answer's in there just tell me to read the fuckin manual, lol. Fake edit: well after actually looking at that image, would it be the G wire for ground? I forgot that the labels might actually mean anything before writing this post, so uh l my bad!
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Dec 19, 2022 20:48
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H110Hawk posted:Gotcha. I was having trouble picturing how a cord that old had a ground + led, but the base is just a "power strip" that you fill with water? I hope to god it's a base for an artificial tree, but it looks old enough that I'm afraid.
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Dec 19, 2022 20:49
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Johnny Truant posted:Here's a question, thread! I've never used a multimeter on a thermostat, so from this sucker: With HVAC it's always best to inspect the actual connections in the blower assembly to see what wires go to what, but here is a helpful page that has what the various letters and wires should mean. If it worked before you took it apart, I would assume the wires and the lettering on that plate is as it should be. https://www.systoncable.com/thermostat-color-code/#:~:text=The%20wires%20are%20typically%20arranged,may%20be%20a%20different%20color). So based on all that, you should run your probes on C and R (Black and Red) and get back 24 volts.
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Dec 19, 2022 20:54
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SpartanIvy posted:So based on all that, you should run your probes on C and R (Black and Red) and get back 24 volts. And the most common error here: Volts AC(~). In most of everything something that low voltage would be DC, but for HVAC and doorbells it's AC.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:00
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Johnny Truant posted:Fake edit: well after actually looking at that image, would it be the G wire for ground? I forgot that the labels might actually mean anything before writing this post, so uh l my bad! They do mean things, but not in any way that (to me) makes sense in any context outside of HVAC. SpartanIvy and H110Hawk are both dead on correct. To give you some context into how things should work - all your thermostat is doing, is connecting various combinations of wires together, and that results in the various modes of operation for your HVAC. There is the HVAC thread if you want to dive further into what you're doing and why.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:15
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SpartanIvy posted:I hope to god it's a base for an artificial tree, but it looks old enough that I'm afraid. Here’s the base. Basically you can plug in all your lights to the outlet on the bottom and then the black wire from the wooden box goes to that 2-prong cord I posted earlier. Of course the black wire isn’t long enough to get to a wall outlet, so my mom used the green extension cord to connect the black wire to the extension cord to the wall.  I think my mom said her dad had made it. She’s 78, so…it’s old.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:28
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nwin posted:Here’s the base. Basically you can plug in all your lights to the outlet on the bottom and then the black wire from the wooden box goes to that 2-prong cord I posted earlier. Of course the black wire isn’t long enough to get to a wall outlet, so my mom used the green extension cord to connect the black wire to the extension cord to the wall. I love it so much. SpartanIvy posted:I hope to god it's a base for an artificial tree, but it looks old enough that I'm afraid. IN YOUR FACE! 
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Dec 19, 2022 21:33
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nwin posted:Here’s the base. Basically you can plug in all your lights to the outlet on the bottom and then the black wire from the wooden box goes to that 2-prong cord I posted earlier. Of course the black wire isn’t long enough to get to a wall outlet, so my mom used the green extension cord to connect the black wire to the extension cord to the wall. I would sleep a lot better if you put a proper three prong plug/wire on that and had it plugged into a GFCI protected circuit. H110Hawk posted:IN YOUR FACE!  but with a Christmas tree
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Dec 19, 2022 21:34
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Is the bottom covered with wood? Once you take it down is there a non-destructive way to see the inside of it? I would love to see a picture. It looks so well crafted. Mom has a GFCI outlet right... I would suggest getting mom a gfci 3-prong extension cord.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:35
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SpartanIvy posted:I would sleep a lot better if you put a proper three prong plug/wire on that and had it plugged into a GFCI protected circuit. I would sleep a lot better if you cut that cord off right at the base of that thing and just used it as a tree stand going forward.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:05
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Motronic posted:I would sleep a lot better if you cut that cord off right at the base of that thing and just used it as a tree stand going forward. I want to see it upgraded with a 3 prong cord, GFCI outlet, and proper faceplates.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:21
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Thanks for the HVAC advice! Especially it being AC. I'll report back once I swap the fucker out, maybe tomorrow depending on if I get hosed up by my COVID booster like last time.
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Dec 19, 2022 23:42
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Turn off the breaker for your furnace before you muck with the thermostat wiring. Not for your sake (24V is only going to tingle a tiny bit unless your hands are wet), but so you don't fry the control board.
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Dec 20, 2022 10:47
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Also take the opportunity to install a furnace disconnect switch in the immediate vicinity of the furnace if the breaker is the only disconnect available. Not only is it code to have a disconnect within sight of the furnace but it saves cycles on the breaker itself.
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Dec 20, 2022 13:00
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STR posted:Turn off the breaker for your furnace before you muck with the thermostat wiring. Not for your sake (24V is only going to tingle a tiny bit unless your hands are wet), but so you don't fry the control board. Oh yeah was definitely going to flip the breaker, but corgski posted:Also take the opportunity to install a furnace disconnect switch in the immediate vicinity of the furnace if the breaker is the only disconnect available. Not only is it code to have a disconnect within sight of the furnace but it saves cycles on the breaker itself. I didn't think about this! There is a disconnect switch on that fucker, I just immediately go for the breaker, ha
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Dec 20, 2022 13:12
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Is there any way to safely run a furnace off a generator without having a proper transfer switch? Just thinking through contingency plans with the upcoming blizzard/deep freeze that's expected
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Dec 20, 2022 13:13
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brugroffil posted:Is there any way to safely run a furnace off a generator without having a proper transfer switch? No. It's possible to do, but nobody should be providing that advice as it is neither safe nor to code.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:02
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Lol figured as much, thanks. Well time to go stack some firewood and hope we don't have any power issues.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:06
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brugroffil posted:Lol figured as much, thanks. Well time to go stack some firewood and hope we don't have any power issues. And start a list for "next time": - Hire electrician to install a transfer switch and inlet
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Dec 20, 2022 14:28
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Besides a transfer switch there is also the possibility to have a generator interlock installed on your panel. It is also another way to add the ability to power various things in your home with a generator that is safe and to code.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:35
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SpartanIvy posted:Besides a transfer switch there is also the possibility to have a generator interlock installed on your panel. It is also another way to add the ability to power various things in your home with a generator that is safe and to code. I've never actually seen a panel in the wild that was being used as a service entrance that would be compatible with those. I suppose it's common to use main lug panels as service entrance panels somewhere, but that place is certainly not around me.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:42
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Motronic posted:I've never actually seen a panel in the wild that was being used as a service entrance that would be compatible with those. Any panel is compatible if you try hard enough!  Serious content: Wanted to test my tiny little pipe heater rope before I rely on it for the upcoming freeze so I froze it into a block of ice and used an amp clamp and FLIR on it. It pulls 6 watts, exactly as advertised! (the multimeter shows .5 amps because the line splitter I used is x10) 
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Dec 20, 2022 19:42
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SpartanIvy posted:Any panel is compatible if you try hard enough! 
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Dec 20, 2022 19:57
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SpartanIvy posted:Any panel is compatible if you try hard enough! 8/10 no fake UL sticker. I don't care which country it's in.
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Dec 20, 2022 20:53
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Motronic posted:No. YouTube keeps trying to get me to watch a video from a guy explaining how to mount a metal, single gang junction box to the side of your furnace with a light switch, a receptacle, and a short cord coming out for just this purpose. I'm assuming this is the kind of thing you're talking about?
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Dec 21, 2022 01:43
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Danhenge posted:YouTube keeps trying to get me to watch a video from a guy explaining how to mount a metal, single gang junction box to the side of your furnace with a light switch, a receptacle, and a short cord coming out for just this purpose. I'm assuming this is the kind of thing you're talking about? Yes, that's the flavor of "this is totally wrong and you know it's wrong because it requires a suicide cord" kind of bullshit I'm talking about.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:10
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In theory if your furnace is cord and plug, and you run the math, you could potentially run an extension cord to it to run it off your generator? Unplug the furnace cord from the wall, plug it into the receptacle on the extension cord, off you go. Right? Does the ground or anything hook up to the outside compressor somehow? This isn't a suggestion to get creative, just curious and involves 0 suicide cords.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:15
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H110Hawk posted:In theory if your furnace is cord and plug, and you run the math, you could potentially run an extension cord to it to run it off your generator? Unplug the furnace cord from the wall, plug it into the receptacle on the extension cord, off you go. Right? Think about how this cord and plug on your furnace is not interlocked from utility power no matter how you do this without a proper interlock. At some point that cord and plug can be live when utility power is on (i.e. in a "good" install with the wrong combo of switches). And if that can happen it also means it's going to backfeed into your house if not further if your main breaker is still on. Or maybe you're following one where they're suggesting something more elaborate for switching. At that point just make a dryer outlet suicide cord and go hog wild if you absolutely refuse to do any of this the right way or just do the whole thing the right way. I'm not saying I haven't been in situations where there's an extended power outage and things needed to happen for various people with various generators. But the difference is in knowing what you're doing and why it's okay to do and why it's still not safe as opposed to having to figure it out with internet instructions of unknown provenance. And if anyone is asking here they have the time to figure out and pay to get it done right. Every time I've had to scumbag this stuff has been during what was or later declared to be a federal disaster area.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:45
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I'm going to clean up some of the Ethernet runs in my garage and I think I want to use some leftover EMT I have for the job. Going to surface mount it on the drywall'd ceiling. Will be LV only -- I don't like leaving things floating, but at the same time, I feel like it's going to be a pain in the rear end for me to 'properly' ground it. If I do end up putting a metal junction box somewhat near an existing outlet, what's the right conductor / type of thing to use to tie into that? Assuming 14/1 Romex really isn't a thing? Can you use THHN if only for Earth? https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/38134/can-i-run-thhn-wires-through-an-attic-without-conduit it's not technically an EGC so assuming that doesn't apply in this case. Or is it just easier to leave it floating?
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Dec 21, 2022 03:21
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I think by cord and plug they meant to have your furnace plug into an outlet instead of hard wired, so you could unplug it from the wall and into a generator. It would only plug in to one place at a time. I don't think the light switch has anything to do with this scenario.
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Dec 21, 2022 03:25
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Motronic posted:Think about how this cord and plug on your furnace is not interlocked from utility power no matter how you do this without a proper interlock. I mean literally home running an extension cord from the generator to the cord on the furnace. Like if it's in your garage, put the generator in your driveway, a 25' 12awg outdoor extension cord, unplug the furnace from utility power, plug into the extension cord, plug into the generator. This assumes that the furnace+forced air comes from the factory cord-and-plug and is gas fired. Electric resistance you might as well do it right for the size generator you would need. No wire cutters involved.
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Dec 21, 2022 03:26
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H110Hawk posted:This assumes that the furnace+forced air comes from the factory cord-and-plug and is gas fired. Installation to the manufacturer's instructions/cut sheet IS the code in almost all codes. Who is testing/listing fixed oil or gas heaters with detachable power cords?
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Dec 21, 2022 03:44
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Motronic posted:Installation to the manufacturer's instructions/cut sheet IS the code in almost all codes. Who is testing/listing fixed oil or gas heaters with detachable power cords? I don't know, that was part of my question. I haven't actually looked at how the wiring connects to my forced air + nat gas furnace. Looks like they aren't, or at least mine isn't according to the cut sheet.
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Dec 21, 2022 04:29
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