CommissarMega posted:

How much did we know about the Big E before the Heresy books? Because I could swear there were enough hints here and there that he wasn't a very good father at the very least those books came out.

pentyne posted:

Not sure if there was a good solution, but hauling them out in public and brutally humiliating him sure wasn't it.

Also super hard to take it seriously while Angron and the World Eaters are pursuing a policy of that could be described as aggressively genocidal towards contacted human empires that showed the slightest hint of resistance (and even some that didn't)

The whole 30k era lore went from a bunch of random sourcebook writings and a few scattered mentions to full on entire history thousands of pages in detail in the late 2000s and for some reason the writers at large were either told or naturally decided to just make the Emperor an absolute moron of the highest

Kanos posted:

The Emperor was entirely cool with the space marines genociding non-Imperial human empires, so the World Eaters were actually in the clear before they turned traitor. The Emperor's goal wasn't "reunite all of humanity", it was "reunite all of humanity under the Imperium, following all of the Imperium's rules, restrictions, and prejudices, and if you're not with us you're against us". The Heresy books actually open up with Horus's legion violently conquering a lost human empire that refused to integrate and told the invaders to gently caress off, and the very last words its leader says before he's violently killed by a space marine are basically "Why couldn't you just leave us alone?".

There's a point later when Horus finds an advanced, prosperous, and peaceful human civilization and defies all expectations by deciding to approach them diplomatically, and even declines to initially attack them when it's revealed they're living in peace with *gasp* xenos. Literally all of his advisors and commanders are utterly appalled that he's not immediately dropping ten thousand space marines on them for the great crime of not immediately killing all aliens.

I think it's very intentional that the Emperor was meant to be a beautiful, sublime, god-like being of infinite power and potential, but also a blinkered idiot who is so blinded by his own prejudices and arrogance that he misses vitally important details and ends up effectively shooting himself in the face. It's pretty much a mirror to what the Imperium becomes.

chiasaur11 posted:

Not all his advisors. Loken was going to bat for Horus, even though the alien thing made him pause when Abaddon asked if he could think of a single alien species that would as much as say "shame about that" if humans went extinct. (He couldn't)

One of the short stories set in the crusade, Misbegotten, actually talks about how, 99 percent of the time, bringing a world into compliance meant rolling up, saying "We're getting the band back together. Want in?", then the world would go "gently caress yes!", And the rest was just having the diplomats work out how to make joining the Imperium as smooth as possible. The awful Grimdark stuff was a minority situation. But, well, Horus fell, and whatever was good in the Imperium didn't outlast him by much.

Kanos posted:

The facts that the accepted terminology for joining the Imperium was "compliance" and how they talk a lot about "bringing worlds into compliance" are extremely indicative things about their attitude and approach to the entire endeavor.

Rogue AI Goddess posted:

The Emperor should have followed Malcador's advice and made the Primarchs gender diverse. Things would have still fallen apart eventually, but in a more Chronicles of Amber way.

Warden posted:

I mean, none of them would get anything done, they would all have been way too busy fighting over Sanguinius' affections.

Warden posted:

The Imperium and Emperor are the villains, the whole system is rotten, the universe is so utterly hosed there's no hope for better future in the long run and in the big picture.

Warden posted:

The Imperium and Emperor are the villains, the whole system is rotten, the universe is so utterly hosed there's no hope for better future in the long run and in the big picture. All anyone can do is win small victories and focus on that.

Buschmaki posted:

Chaos wins and turns all of material reality into Heaven (the warp)

Warden posted:

That's actually called out explicitly in some of the Horus Heresy novels. The early Imperium liked to pretend that they're bringing a more enlightened and united future, but the truth is that the Emperor is just another tyrant in a long line of tyrants. He, in a discussion with the last priest left in Terra, before burning down his cathedral, answers the question what makes him different from all others is "Because I know I am right". Turns out he wasn't, whoopsy.

I am partial to the novel Valdor, which takes place before Great Crusade is launched, where an Imperial official investigates the disappearance of the Thunder Warriors (Space Marine precursors). She tries to live up to the ideals of Unity espoused as by Emperor's forces when they brought Terra to heel and do the right thing, only to realize all the new laws and systems are a sham, a smokescreen. The only ones who matter are the Emperor, and his right and left-hand men Malcador the Sigillite and Constantin Valdor, and they're paying lip service to the appearance of such things as due process only as long as it takes for them consolidate their power.

The Imperium and Emperor are the villains, the whole system is rotten, the universe is so utterly hosed there's no hope for better future in the long run and in the big picture. All anyone can do is win small victories and focus on that.

MonsieurChoc posted:

At least Karl-Franz was elected!

Perestroika posted:

That also extends to the Space Marines themselves. They were from the outset conceived of as brute terror troops. Just look at it from a practical perspective: Investing immense resources into breeding gigantic mutant monstrosities and equipping them with frankly stupid weapons like chainsaw swords and guns that blow people in half is not what you'd do if all you're looking for is battlefield efficiency. But it sure works just fine for terrorizing a former human colony back into line on the back of sheer overwhelming brutality and carnage. No wonder Marines just love falling to Chaos.

So of course the Imperium would go and elevate them to near-divinity. Angels of the Emperor, indeed.

King Doom posted:

And good at being Emperor as well.

MonsieurChoc posted:

At least Karl-Franz was elected!

Master of Mankind posted:

"A compromised primarch is still a primarch." The Emperor mused, still distracted. "What is it Arkhan?"

Land hesitated. "You are more sanguine than I would have imagined in this moment, even knowing of your holy detachment from emotion."

"What would the alternative be?" The Emperor laid the bloodstained gloves on a nearby surgical trolley, where red-marked knives and other instruments lay wet and freshly used. "That I might mourn the Twelfth as though it were my injured son, and I its grieving father?"

"Never that, Divine One". Arkhan chose his words with care. "Though some might expect that."

The Emperor unlocked the sealed vambraces of His hazard suit, then removed the surgical mask that had covered his face until now. "It is not my son, Arkhan. None of them are. They are warlords, generals, tools bred to serve a purpose. Just as Legions were bred to serve a purpose."

Arkhan looked down at the sleeping demigod, watching Angron's facial features twitch and tense in painful harmony with a ravaged nervous system.

"With your blessing, Divine One, I would ask something of you."

The Emperor turned His eyes upon Land for the first time. Falling beneath the Omnissiah’s gaze made the Motive Force in Arkhan’s bloodstream flow faster, tingling like weak acid.

"Ask."

"The primarchs. It is said they have always called you father. It seems so… sentimental. I’ve never understood why you allow it."

The Emperor was silent for some time. When He spoke, His eyes had returned to the hulking form on the surgical slab. "There was once a writer," he said, "a penner of children’s stories who told the tale of a wooden puppet that wished to be reborn as a human child. And this puppet, this automaton of painted, carved wood that sought to be a thing of flesh and blood and bone – do you know what it called its maker? What would such a creature call the creator that gave it shape and form and life?"

Rogue AI Goddess posted:

Rogue AI Goddess posted:

Stuff from Master of Mankind

CommissarMega posted:

I mean... let's be honest, regardless of the gender makeup of all the Primarchs, they'd have been fighting for Sanguinius no matter what

Dandywalken posted:

The Emperor was a Turk!

happyhippy posted:

Hes a big doodoo head.
Would be interesting to find out how Horus would have dealt with the Orks and Tyranids and Tau and Necrons.

pentyne posted:

Chaos and psykers kind of upended the whole thing, but during the Great Crusade the Imperium encountered several human civs that were aware of Chaos and aggressively defending against it quite successfully. Of course Compliance dictated they be wiped out to lessen the amount to people who knew about it to try and 'starve' the chaos gods.

Kanos posted:

The marines being gigantic hulking human tanks with ridiculously oversized overkill weapons makes sense in the context of them being intended to be able to fight and defeat anything humanity might run into, given that the galaxy is legitimately full of horrifying nightmare monsters that are more than a match for normal human soldiers and/or situations where a tiny super elite ultra squad can accomplish what 1,000,000 normal trained dudes cannot.

The idea is supposed to be that the Imperium has a normal army of millions/billions of normal soldiers that are equipped with normal weapons that handles 95% of the fighting and the marines are used when massive, insane, overwhelming force is required for various reasons(enemy dug in way to deep to be easily dislodged, enemy happens to be twelve foot tall bug monsters that shrug off gunfire, etc).

Even during the pre-Heresy days when entire legions of marines were flying around, most of the actual fighting was done by regular army dudes. The marines were sent in primarily for brute force shock and awe decapitation strikes or into environments/against opponents which would simply massacre normal soldiers.

pentyne posted:

I think the underlying premise is that absent the insane chaos (lol) of the massively regressive Imperium all those enemies would barely be a blip.

Perestroika posted:

That's kind a half my point. They're good at one particular mission, and at the time of their creation that mission extended pretty much only to human targets. During the Great Crusade, wrestling greater daemons or hive tyrants simply wasn't much of a consideration yet, xenos were something of a sideshow that would ideally be orbital bombarded out of existence anyway. Their main mission was dropping into the headquarters of a resisting human planet and leaving such a horrifying mess that the rest of them will surrender out of fear.

Perestroika posted:

Orks wouldn't be much of a problem if the Imperium wasn't trying to eradicate them at every turn out of principle, which in turn just means more Orks being created and coming at them looking for a good fight.

quote:

The whole thing about turning space marines into giants who eat brains and spit acid seems to have had two main purposes at the time: feeding the Emperor's gene modification fetish, and becoming drastically more intimidating towards targets who are receptive to intimidation. Which, again, are mostly humans. Being able to go toe to toe with the more exotic monsters in the galaxy is an advantage that seems to have become relevant only later on.

quote:

Now I might be misremembering, but I think during the Great Crusade they actually met an isolated human system who managed to have their own elite soldiers who were almost the equal of space marines simply on the basis of high-tech equipment and training.

Warden posted:

Uh, you're gonna have to dig up citations for that, because to my knowledge, on-paper they encountered one civilization that was aware of and defending against Chaos successfully: the Interex.

pentyne posted:

I think the underlying premise is that absent the insane chaos (lol) of the massively regressive Imperium all those enemies would barely be a blip.

They're not even bothering to genocide the Tau, despite it being a tiny, tiny island of systems compared to the Imperium because it's not worth the cost of a Crusade fleet yet.

Commonly referenced is that during Humanity's ascent, 10k-25k, they saw multiple empires rise and fall that make the modern Imperium look like a peasant village. Literally no alien empire encountered could threaten the collective humanity and Orks were like a fun little distraction for bored military dudes to go fight.

Chaos and psykers kind of upended the whole thing, but during the Great Crusade the Imperium encountered several human civs that were aware of Chaos and aggressively defending against it quite successfully. Of course Compliance dictated they be wiped out to lessen the amount to people who knew about it to try and 'starve' the chaos gods.

chiasaur11 posted:

The Interex also, unlike the Emperor, figured that fighting Chaos was, long term, a losing game. You'd hold out as long as you could, but eventually you'd be overwhelmed.

The Emperor, by contrast, had a plan that could have worked to win against Chaos. It didn't work, it involved a lot of atrocities, and most of his closest friends had ditched him over the millenia for being a dick about it, but it does provide context for his dumb moves.

I feel like playing up the crappy aspects of the crusade era too much loses what makes it interesting. The Emperor was an rear end in a top hat, there were already hints at how the Imperium was going to fall, but it still needs to be a fall. That makes the story a tragedy with elements of farce, instead of just a bunch of assholes getting killed over nothing.

Eifert Posting posted:

The most important things to understand about Warhammer 40K is
A) It was made by a bunch of gen x English dudes Who had a justifiably extremely negative opinion of governments. At a fundamental level, Warhammer 40K was never meant to be aspirational in any way.
B) up until the mid '90s where it started becoming one of the more profitable sci fi IPs it was written to be extremely silly and nonsensical satire.

My favorite anecdote illustrating the latter point is that one of the most important characters in the setting is named after the bouncer at one of the bars they all used to go to.

Angry Ron

Angryron
Angron