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Can anyone recommend any books on urban slavery in the Antebellum US South?Lottie posted:Alt-History, critiques and in earnest (I hate alt-history and I love to hate-read so I can know what my enemies are up to): For criticism of pseudohistory, look up anything by Kenneth Feder, Jason Colavito, Jeb Card, or David S. Anderson.
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Dec 27, 2022 16:09
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Hannibal Rex posted:Meet Me in Atlantis is a pleasant read about the author meeting some more, some less kooky Atlantis theorists and investigating the basis of their claims, if any. I'll check out Meet Me in Atlantis! The better the claim, the more coherently I can knock it down, lol. I've never heard of the Chinese discovering America, nor the Middle Ages not existing thing, so I'll have to take a look  And I have absolutely no clue about this Hyperwar you mentioned! Thank you!!Silver2195 posted:I think the usual term is pseudohistory, not alt-history. Alt-history makes me think of Harry Turtledove. There isn't one agreed upon term I'm sure, and I've seen where people make a distinction between alternate and alternative history, but anyway, I do prefer the pseudo prefix! And I haven't looked into Turtledove beyond seeing his name; isn't he just contributing to the false validity of pseudohistory/archaeology? dokmo posted:Been a long time since I read it, but iirc Thor Heyerdahl's Kon-Tiki was about him sailing from Peru across the Pacific in a primitive boat in order to prove his theory that white people (maybe they were gods?) were the first settlers of Polynesia, by sailing from South America. The man had some weird pseudohistorical ideas. Omg this is like exactly what I wanted to see. I love how it's always somehow about making white people more than what we are/were. What does that say of us? Nothing good, certainly lol. Thanks so much!! Chairman Capone posted:Can anyone recommend any books on urban slavery in the Antebellum US South? I don't know of any recs for you, I'm afraid, but I really appreciate the authors list you gave me! I'll look at them as soon as I can. Thanks!!
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Dec 28, 2022 22:21
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Lottie posted:And I haven't looked into Turtledove beyond seeing his name; isn't he just contributing to the false validity of pseudohistory/archaeology? No? He's a historian who writes fiction. If you pick up a Turtledove book and it convinces you alien lizards actually invaded Earth during WW2 that's on you, not him.
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Dec 28, 2022 22:27
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Alternate history is explicitly fiction, it's "what-if" stories. Pseudohistory is bullshit masquerading as real history. They are completely different
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Dec 28, 2022 22:37
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how do we feel about Guns, Germs and Steel? i remember it was pretty big back in the late 00s, but is it actually good/useful, or is it like a history version of Freakonomics?
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Dec 29, 2022 04:48
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Grand Fromage posted:No? He's a historian who writes fiction. If you pick up a Turtledove book and it convinces you alien lizards actually invaded Earth during WW2 that's on you, not him. I like to think Lottie's comment was just a deep dig at Theophanes the Confessor.
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Dec 29, 2022 06:27
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Mr Interweb posted:how do we feel about Guns, Germs and Steel? i remember it was pretty big back in the late 00s, but is it actually good/useful, or is it like a history version of Freakonomics? Well I haven't read Freakonomics but it's definitely the latter
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Dec 29, 2022 06:45
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Lottie posted:Omg this is like exactly what I wanted to see. I love how it's always somehow about making white people more than what we are/were. What does that say of us? Nothing good, certainly lol. Thanks so much!!
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Dec 29, 2022 10:52
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Heyerdahl got a lot of positive press for his adventures. He was seen as a romantic adventurer, the psuedo scientific purpose of his expeditions were underplayed or unreported.quote:Heyerdahl believed that the original inhabitants of Easter Island (and the rest of Polynesia) were the "Tiki people", a race of "white bearded men" who supposedly originally sailed from Peru. He described these "Tiki people" as being a sun-worshipping fair-skinned people with blue eyes, fair or red hair, tall statures, and beards. He further said that these people were originally from the Middle East, and had crossed the Atlantic earlier to found the great Mesoamerican civilizations. He later went on to sail to Easter Island on another simple raft, wrote several books about it, including Easter Island: The Mystery Solved, where he invented some more history nearly out of sheer cloth. quote:Based on native testimony and archaeological research, he claimed the island was originally colonised by Hanau eepe ("Long Ears"), from South America, and that Polynesian Hanau momoko ("Short Ears") arrived only in the mid-16th century; they may have come independently or perhaps were imported as workers. Then he sailed (twice!) across the Atlantic in another raft, to prove something or another I can't remember but I'll bet was very dumb. He wrote a book about this, Ra, and there was a movie. Then he built another raft, Tigris, quote:which was intended to demonstrate that trade and migration could have linked Mesopotamia with the Indus Valley civilization in what is now Pakistan and western India. Tigris was built in Al Qurnah Iraq and sailed with its international crew through the Persian Gulf to Pakistan and made its way into the Red Sea. He wrote a book about this (failed) expedition. All of these books were bestsellers. There was very little pushback in the mainstream press. I think there was quite a bit of criticism in the academic press, but it never seemed to have filtered out to the public.
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Dec 29, 2022 12:46
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Grand Fromage posted:No? He's a historian who writes fiction. If you pick up a Turtledove book and it convinces you alien lizards actually invaded Earth during WW2 that's on you, not him. Alternate and alternative history is defined as a certain genre of fiction; and certainly there are many people who follow the Icke crowd and believe the world is run by lizard people. I wonder how he feels about those types; does he sort of lampoon them in his work, or is it quite separate from the pseudohistory phenomenon? I have a tendency to assume they overlap, but maybe they don't? VostokProgram posted:Alternate history is explicitly fiction, it's "what-if" stories. Pseudohistory is bullshit masquerading as real history. They are completely different This I think is a newer phenomenon, the "masquerading as real history." You'll see in the 90s-era stuff that it's almost a meek presentation, and with the success of things like Ancient Aliens, I think they've gotten bolder over the years. If you watch these more modern pseudohistory shows, you'll find they are still very iffy about making statements; instead, they're more about "asking questions." It's a dodgy way to present an alt narrative without taking any responsibility for the potential of audience members to construe it as factual. Epicurius posted:I like to think Lottie's comment was just a deep dig at Theophanes the Confessor. am busted. his beard is stupid. Mr Interweb posted:how do we feel about Guns, Germs and Steel? i remember it was pretty big back in the late 00s, but is it actually good/useful, or is it like a history version of Freakonomics? It's sitting on my shelf, unopened; I saw on reddit I think in the last year or so where people were criticizing it for being written by a dood who oversimplified a lot of info to fit into a quirky presentation, but I haven't read it, so I can't offer any comment beyond that. Freakonomics I remember reading (via audiobook lol) over a decade ago, and I can't say I remember much beyond the crediting of abortions with a sudden dip in mid-90s crime trends, which I'm not even going to attempt to research cos a, not ancient history and b, that sounds like a bag of sad that I don't want to open. engessa posted:There is also a movie with the same name which, if memorys serves right, ignores all the controversies. I'm somehow worse at watching movies than reading, but if I find it and it fits the treadmill schedule, I'll start with that! Thanks ! Currently working on The Borgias and thought my cousin wanted to poison me when she invited me to dinner this week, so definitely not great with video format for some reason lol@dokmo re: Heyerdahl: I remember reading about him! Not sure how I didn't recall from the name from the earlier post, but he was mentioned in passing in my class on Pacific cultures before our unit on the navigation and sailing skills of the Polynesians. This lack of pushback is sort of the issue for me when it comes to the pseudoarch content, because it becomes part of the zeitgeist and i don't have to go into why that's a problem so i'll just stop. There is archaeological evidence of their skills; what evidence was he even citing, I wonder.
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Dec 29, 2022 19:01
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The Our Fake History podcast did a two-part episode looking at Guns, Germs, and Steel. From what I recall his conclusion was that the book has flaws but isn't entirely bad. https://ourfakehistory.com/index.php/season-six/episode-136-whats-the-deal-with-guns-germs-and-steel/ https://ourfakehistory.com/index.php/season-six/episode-137-whats-the-deal-with-guns-germs-and-steel-part-ii/
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Dec 29, 2022 22:54
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I'm at the teotihuacan section of the dawn of everything and though it's not as bad as I expected alot of this seems to be really stretching it. Which is funny because a good chunk of the chapter is mocking guns germs and steel.
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Dec 30, 2022 00:32
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Lottie posted:Alternate and alternative history is defined as a certain genre of fiction; and certainly there are many people who follow the Icke crowd and believe the world is run by lizard people. I wonder how he feels about those types; does he sort of lampoon them in his work, or is it quite separate from the pseudohistory phenomenon? I have a tendency to assume they overlap, but maybe they don't? There is absolutely no overlap and from what I remember the Icke-style lizard alien conspiracy is never really mentioned or alluded to.
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Dec 30, 2022 03:01
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Chairman Capone posted:Can anyone recommend any books on urban slavery in the Antebellum US South? It's been a few years but I remember enjoying Scraping By by Seth Rockman.
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Dec 30, 2022 03:50
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Latkje posted:It's been a few years but I remember enjoying Scraping By by Seth Rockman. Awesome, thanks! HannibalBarca posted:There is absolutely no overlap and from what I remember the Icke-style lizard alien conspiracy is never really mentioned or alluded to. Turtledove might have written the Worldwar books before Icke started spreading his lizard people thoughts, they’re from the early 90s. Turtledove did write a sequel in I think 2004 which included some joking allusions to Star Trek but I don’t think he worked Icke in there.
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Dec 30, 2022 04:56
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Chairman Capone posted:Awesome, thanks! Turtledove's lizard people arrive in giant starships and declare war on the whole world, not secretly either, they blow a bunch of stuff up and get high on ginger.
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Dec 30, 2022 12:31
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Don't remember how sexy The Guns of the South was, but getting to see the invaders put random human men and women in cells together to observe mating practices was something.
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Dec 30, 2022 13:40
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FPyat posted:Don't remember how sexy The Guns of the South was, but getting to see the invaders put random human men and women in cells together to observe mating practices was something. IIRC, the viewpoint character they do it to escapes, becomes a guerilla under Mao and eventually kills the psychologist who runs the experiment, as well as using her daughter as propaganda against the invaders, so it's not prurient..,
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Dec 30, 2022 15:08
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FPyat posted:Don't remember how sexy The Guns of the South was, but getting to see the invaders put random human men and women in cells together to observe mating practices was something. There's a scene of an elderly Robert E. Lee loving his invalid wife. Yeah. Gonna have that one seared into my memory long after senescence has taken the faces of friends and loved ones.
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Dec 30, 2022 16:38
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HannibalBarca posted:There's a scene of an elderly Robert E. Lee loving his invalid wife. Amazing post/avatar combo there
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Dec 30, 2022 17:29
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mythology fans; did people view the gods of the greek and norse pantheons as tangible beings you could physically kill? im trying to win an argument(he thinks God of War style marvel superheroes was the way of it). i need some sources.
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Dec 31, 2022 07:24
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Unfortunately I must inform you that at least in the Greek case, neither of you can win or lose this argument because there was a wide range of opinion. Generally speaking the idea that anybody could just go stab a god was not a thing. Gods were corporeal beings who could in principle be wounded or killed by attack, but only by special people who themselves generally were part divine. Uranus is the only full on god who was killed as far as I can remember. That was done by other deities though, not mortals. Demigods are a different story and a bunch of them are killed in stories, like Herakles or Achilles.
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Dec 31, 2022 07:40
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Plutarch famously wrote about the death of Pan.
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Dec 31, 2022 10:19
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Pan erasure has deep roots, unfortunately
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Dec 31, 2022 10:37
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Is there a podcast sub forum im missing? Or a thread that is better to ask the following? Looking for a decent podcast on the history of Persia - not sure if there is one overarching one or if there’s podcasts on seperate ones on various empires. Just one from Islam on would be fine although I would love earlier as well. Same question but also for chinese history. Basically looking for decent narrative style podcasts like history of Rome did for Rome. Again sorry if this is the wrong place to ask
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Dec 31, 2022 13:36
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https://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=255
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Dec 31, 2022 14:13
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There’s specifically a history podcast thread: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3532486&perpage=40&noseen=1&pagenumber=132
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Dec 31, 2022 15:43
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:mythology fans; My understanding is that the Norse gods were a lot more kill-able than the Greek ones. Edith Hamilton argued that this meant that the Norse gods could be "heroic" in a way the Greek gods couldn't. In general, it's futile to seek too much consistency in Greek mythology. It seems like in some stories the gods are innately immortal, while in others they apparently maintain their immortality by drinking nectar and eating ambrosia (or even by eating nectar and drinking ambrosia). Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Dec 31, 2022 |
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Dec 31, 2022 16:31
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teacup posted:Looking for a decent podcast on the history of Persia - not sure if there is one overarching one or if there’s podcasts on seperate ones on various empires. Just one from Islam on would be fine although I would love earlier as well. The History of China will do you for China, still ongoing, currently in the Ming. The History of Persia podcast unfortunately stopped making episodes.
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Dec 31, 2022 19:20
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Any recommendations for middle eastern history: specifically, anything broadly centered around Tigris Euphrates or broadly the cradle of civilization, some centuries pre-Muhammad but going forward to include birth of Islam up to the shia / sunni schism. I have broad strokes from uh.. discussions with people who may be a bit too close to the subject to give insights other than to current events - and my views are very colored by these experiences. I'd be really interested in broad political dynamics, roughly 700-1900 AD. So, roughly up to the fall of the Ottoman empire. I'm sort of all up on crusades and poo poo, but I'd be more interested in whatever polities existed around the shores of the Persian gulf and their inner workings.
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Dec 31, 2022 22:19
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TheDiceMustRoll posted:mythology fans; The fact that Frigg went around Middle Earth making every living and unliving thing swear that they wouldn't cause the death of her son, Baldr, seems to suggest that they were killable. Then you have Kvasir who was killed by a couple of dwarves.
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Dec 31, 2022 23:30
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Lawman 0 posted:Actually I'll just take a good book about Thailand until the modern era. Would also be interested in a rec for this. Anybody got anything? I’m visiting Thailand in a few weeks and it would be good to have some reading material before/during the trip.
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Jan 3, 2023 11:33
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Chinathread might be a good place to ask. There are a bunch of posters familiar with all parts of Asia there. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3912640
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Jan 3, 2023 14:19
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teacup posted:Is there a podcast sub forum im missing? Or a thread that is better to ask the following? Dan Carlin's Hardcore History has a few King of Kings episodes starting with Cyrus; I know that's earlier than you specified, but it's good listening.
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Jan 5, 2023 04:03
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Picking up this book from the library this week. https://www.amazon.com/India-At-War-Subcontinent-Second/dp/0199753490 I just realized I read her partition book and I'm quite excited to read this.
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Jan 18, 2023 03:31
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Any good books on the Dutch East India company? Specifically interested in the inner workings of the company and decision making.
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Jan 27, 2023 15:57
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Starks posted:Any good books on the Dutch East India company? Specifically interested in the inner workings of the company and decision making. I'm gonna second this.
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Jan 28, 2023 22:36
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Chairman Capone posted:The Our Fake History podcast did a two-part episode looking at Guns, Germs, and Steel. From what I recall his conclusion was that the book has flaws but isn't entirely bad. GGS does make the case that development of societies is due to their material conditions. And I mean no poo poo, but this seems to be ignored in a lot of other pop history.
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Jan 29, 2023 01:42
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Starks posted:Any good books on the Dutch East India company? Specifically interested in the inner workings of the company and decision making. Not what you are looking for, but you might want to read Batavia by Peter Fitzsimmons after you read up on the VOC and want something related. True story about a mutiny leading to a shipwreck of the largest VOC ship ever, with all survivors stuck on a tiny, barren island. Things go bad with murder, devil worship, cannibalism and more. Some of the survivors kept diaries through the whole ordeal and I believe the VOC and court records were used for research too. The first few chapters have some information on shipbuilding, investing and how the VOC was set up, but it is not the focus of the book.
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Jan 30, 2023 09:15
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I'm looking for a book on the historical development of anti-communism and the Red Scare.
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